Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Gameplay discussion should go in the Gameplay Discussion thread. Gameplay discussion includes, but is not exclusive to:
Runes and masteries
Item builds
Jungle paths
Playstyle and skill order for new/updated champions
I think it's pretty lame that they nerfed DFT and champions that were abusing DFT in the same patch, but even including that the Hecarim and Karthus nerfs are even weirder.
same reason thunderlords is getting buffed when there is already 6 of them in every game. Riot has very little understanding of the state of their game when its in an experimental state. Pretty much everyone already takes cunning for thunderlords, their cluelessness knows no bounds!
Eh, Bard is good because he gets so much free stuff. When he gets ahead, he gets ahead in a way that's really impactful without being super obvious-- he doesn't do much more damage, but he's kinda tanky and has a lot of playmaking ability. Also, the more ahead he gets, the more ahead he gets cuz he can roam and collect scrolls and stuff.
On December 09 2015 06:54 ticklishmusic wrote: Eh, Bard is good because he gets so much free stuff. When he gets ahead, he gets ahead in a way that's really impactful without being super obvious-- he doesn't do much more damage, but he's kinda tanky and has a lot of playmaking ability. Also, the more ahead he gets, the more ahead he gets cuz he can roam and collect scrolls and stuff.
With these buffs I wonder if AP Bard will be a thing. Normally used to just building him tanky with CDR to just be a massive nuisance with a fuck ton of bindings + wall portals. But, with the heal buff, it might actually be worth building a bit more AP on him.
On December 09 2015 07:31 nafta wrote: Ok looking through champion.gg holy shit are people bad at masteries.
People are actually going fervor on vi rofl. I mean after this patch you could maybe make an argument for it but now just rofl.
When we had the same masteries for all of seasons 4-5, it wasn't until halfway through season 5 until even progamers started using optimized mastery pages.
Added apparently. And yeah Vi's either Cunning or Resolve. I'm not sure actually, Thunderlord's Decree didn't seem that much damage, especially compared to what she outputs by herself, and she MS boost while nice early game because she doesn't stick well wouldn't be triggerable come mid-late game. I think I'd go 0-12-18 on her, with Strength of the Ages so I can try Warrior->Ghostblade and still not be too squishy?
Tried Warrior->Ghostblade->Hexdrinker and I felt super squishy, though. You've got some HP and the shield+Lifeline is nice overall against magic damage, but you take ages to break 100 armour, and I don't think you need the AD from Hexdrinker at that point.
On December 09 2015 07:48 MooMooMugi wrote: Mastery: Assassin LONE WOLF You deal 1.5% increased damage when no allied champions are near you
New mastery added or replacing one of the masteries?
They actually intend to put 3 options in the T2 of all the trees.
On December 09 2015 08:04 Alaric wrote: Added apparently. And yeah Vi's either Cunning or Resolve. I'm not sure actually, Thunderlord's Decree didn't seem that much damage, especially compared to what she outputs by herself, and she MS boost while nice early game because she doesn't stick well wouldn't be triggerable come mid-late game. I think I'd go 0-12-18 on her, with Strength of the Ages so I can try Warrior->Ghostblade and still not be too squishy?
Tried Warrior->Ghostblade->Hexdrinker and I felt super squishy, though. You've got some HP and the shield+Lifeline is nice overall against magic damage, but you take ages to break 100 armour, and I don't think you need the AD from Hexdrinker at that point.
The base damageon Decree is pretty large, actually.
New item looks good though. Also, not sure if I like the brightened Dragon Trainer Lulu skin. It definitely pops more on screen, but I feel like the more rustic brown colors on her skin seemed to fit the skin thematically.
rip runeglaive was fun when it lasted, constant changes really start to piss me off
To be fair, they kind of killed it with the Sheen changes. Better that they try a new idea that has wider application than an old one that doesn't work.
taking a second highly analytic approach to these patch notes, I think they are secretly one of the worst patches in a long time, rivaling patch 4.20 possibly?
They are way behind on whats good. Im expecting 5 thunderlords to go up to probably 8 thunderlords in every game.
I just can't reasonably support 90% of these patch notes and they dont even affect any champions I play.
On December 10 2015 01:06 VayneAuthority wrote: taking a second highly analytic approach to these patch notes, I think they are secretly one of the worst patches in a long time, rivaling patch 4.20 possibly?
They are way behind on whats good. Im expecting 5 thunderlords to go up to probably 8 thunderlords in every game.
I just can't reasonably support 90% of these patch notes and they dont even affect any champions I play.
In all the games I played on this patch this is the case. 8+ Thunderlords every game.
I don't think Thunderlord's is actually that good, it's just that it's the only option for damage for most champs. Every single AP champ (and most AD champs) can only choose between Thunderlord's and Deathfire Touch for damage, and Deathfire Touch has to be like WAY better than Thunderlord's to justify dropping Precision.
I don't think this is something that can really be fixed by tuning numbers on Deathfire Touch or Thunderlord's. I think they need to add a new keystone that just offers raw damage, and/or possibly combine Deathfire Touch and Thunderlord's into a single matery and leave it in Ferocity.
I think this is the main failure of an otherwise excellent mastery overhaul. The solution might just to make all of the keystones something other than just raw damage.
With that new AP Jungle item Nidalee should be even better imo. Plus Fiddle might become a terror in Solo Q with that item plus his ult getting a lower CD :o
On December 10 2015 04:06 VayneAuthority wrote: hybrid corki solo lane is a secret OP right now if anyone wants a fun champ to play. Triforce/luden's/cd boots everything else is extraneous lolz.
On December 10 2015 04:06 VayneAuthority wrote: hybrid corki solo lane is a secret OP right now if anyone wants a fun champ to play. Triforce/luden's/cd boots everything else is extraneous lolz.
Its been op since ludens echo came out, imo.
You have a very weird definition of op.
Why do you go cd boots and not mpen? Don't you just run scaling cdr on blues and with trinity you get enough cdr?
On December 10 2015 04:06 VayneAuthority wrote: hybrid corki solo lane is a secret OP right now if anyone wants a fun champ to play. Triforce/luden's/cd boots everything else is extraneous lolz.
Its been op since ludens echo came out, imo.
You have a very weird definition of op.
Why do you go cd boots and not mpen? Don't you just run scaling cdr on blues and with trinity you get enough cdr?
I usually get void staff anyway and cd boots are almost 300 gold cheaper so its a much faster movement speed power spike.
I run flat ad reds flat ap blues for the lvl 1-2 cheese with corki. Q and E hit really hard early. But yea all the OP hybrid stuff in the cunning tree put him over the top now. precision and thunderlords are both really good on him
On December 10 2015 04:38 JimmiC wrote: I am in plat promo for my other name and lost once and went back in and didn't have 1 in. Thought it was for all series apparently not to jump leagues.
On December 10 2015 04:06 VayneAuthority wrote: hybrid corki solo lane is a secret OP right now if anyone wants a fun champ to play. Triforce/luden's/cd boots everything else is extraneous lolz.
Its been op since ludens echo came out, imo.
You have a very weird definition of op.
Why do you go cd boots and not mpen? Don't you just run scaling cdr on blues and with trinity you get enough cdr?
I usually get void staff anyway and cd boots are almost 300 gold cheaper so its a much faster movement speed power spike.
I run flat ad reds flat ap blues for the lvl 1-2 cheese with corki. Q and E hit really hard early. But yea all the OP hybrid stuff in the cunning tree put him over the top now. precision and thunderlords are both really good on him
Meh maybe. Sadly haven't really seen anyone play it only seen the er+tf combo and it seems pretty good but hard to compare.
I just love how stupid rengar is with those new masteries. It is just something else when getting armor items doesn't help you survive an ad assassin.
Can someone explain to me why they fucked up the jungle experience gain and stuff for the pre-season? I get that they wanted to rework the jungle items (again) after spending most of season 4 and season 5 to work on the jungle, but I thought jungle was in a pretty good spot at the end of season 5.
But now whenever I jungle if I don't successfully gank a lane (like get an actual kill) pre-6 I'm so far behind in XP that it takes me the next 4 minutes to catch up in levels to the lane champs.
On December 10 2015 08:52 Kinie wrote: Can someone explain to me why they fucked up the jungle experience gain and stuff for the pre-season? I get that they wanted to rework the jungle items (again) after spending most of season 4 and season 5 to work on the jungle, but I thought jungle was in a pretty good spot at the end of season 5.
But now whenever I jungle if I don't successfully gank a lane (like get an actual kill) pre-6 I'm so far behind in XP that it takes me the next 4 minutes to catch up in levels to the lane champs.
It's all about how good you can get that first clear. If you can get a full clear, your xp gain doesn't really drop,, if you can only get a half clear, you absolutely need to get that half clear at a healthy enough level to gank a lane. Watching Rush get full clears with full health is pretty crazy impressive, allowing him to gank after a full clear allows him to get such a massive lead. Work on dat jungling mechanic.
They only jungle xp change was that you need to get the items. The actual change that matters is kills give more xp. Dunno how you have such issues tbh. Even in games where the jungler is a few kills and 20 cs behind they still are never more than a level behind.
It feels weird not ganking at level 3 timing-wise, though, but I guess it's on you to pick up the habit. By full clear, are we talking camp->buff->buff->clear the rest, or camp->buff->camp->buff->finish that side?
On December 10 2015 08:57 Alaric wrote: It feels weird not ganking at level 3 timing-wise, though, but I guess it's on you to pick up the habit. By full clear, are we talking camp->buff->buff->clear the rest, or camp->buff->camp->buff->finish that side?
I would say hitting level 4 without backing is a "full" clear.
How the fuck is it wrong? Starting on the otherside of the map completely changes how the lanes play.... Even if it is slightly slower it just creates pressure without even doing anything. For some champs it isn't even slower...
On December 10 2015 09:16 nafta wrote: How the fuck is it wrong? Starting on the otherside of the map completely changes how the lanes play.... Even if it is slightly slower it just creates pressure without even doing anything. For some champs it isn't even slower...
Only thing I can think of is that if you go to red second you won't have the smite for the HP gain on it.
On December 10 2015 09:16 nafta wrote: How the fuck is it wrong? Starting on the otherside of the map completely changes how the lanes play.... Even if it is slightly slower it just creates pressure without even doing anything. For some champs it isn't even slower...
Well if its not slower its not wrong.
In season 5 at least starting red side was typically significantly slower.
I haven't tested but even if it is 20 seconds slower just the fact that you have the option of doing golems>red>wraiths and ganking mid vs not being able to if you start blue side it completely changes the dynamic of the game. When you get in a game with players who aren't sun dried tomatoes it just completely changes how the early game works.
I feel like 20 seconds is a pretty significant thing to gamble on the possible success of an early gank, but I typically play junglers who shouldn't gank before 6 because they are bad at it, so.
I mean so many times when the jungler starts top side I just tell the other guy on bot to go slightly later to lane and waste mana in the air so people think he starts bottom. That shit matters a lot. So often they are gonna overextend and get hit by a super random timing.
And I am pretty sure that technically the faster clear is wherever your duo is so they give you a better pull. Say on elise why would blue side be better when you use your spiderlings to tank so the gromp buff doesn't even proc while you have a lot of atk speed to proc the golem buff?
Honestly even as a non jungle main full clears seem to be almost the same speed on most champs. I have never seen someone clear faster than like 6/7 seconds than me and I don't even have optimized pages/masteries.
For Xin I've been doing Gromp > Blue > Scuttle (spawns on time and lets me get hp back) > Wolves > Wraiths > Red. It seems to work pretty well and I basically have almost full hp with 1 pot used.
Also, maybe cuz I'm an idiot but is it hard to get a full clear on some melee champs now? I played J4 and it was kinda painful.
Ok, so you just have to full clear once before backing to remain mostly relevant. I can do that easy with Vi even without going the refillable HP pot and just taking 3 red pots, but other junglers I do struggle sometimes with doing a full clear and remaining at decent HP, like above 200 or so (which is generally enough HP to survive a Nid spear and run/flash away before she leaps after you).
For me I go Krugs > Red > Raptor > Blue > Wolves > Gromp on blue side if I have a jungler that can kill the little raptors easy after red. Otherwise swap Raptor with Blue.
On red side I go Gromp > Blue > Red > Wolves > Raptor > Krugs almost every time.
Maybe I just need to incorporate doing scuttle crab somewhere in my first clear to regain enough HP for clearing the rest of the camps.
My guess is jungle champs that have a shield or innate sustain in their kit can full clear easy, but if all they have is soft CC or slow AA the first clear is painful and/or terribly slow.
I just got flagged by the LeaveBuster for D/Cing from a bot game last night. I had to leave the game so that I could relaunch the client to reconnect.
I was always under the impression that Riot's algorithms were statistically solid and all the ppl QQing were just toxic and subject to poor-self-reflection biases, but I've been only playing bot games for first win for the last 2 months and don't think I've ever left a game before being able to reconnect.
Is this part of the new "Instant Feedback" system? Does it depend on whether you get reported for being AFK or not? I understand the "don't play ranked games if your internet is unstable" part but it'd be pretty ridiculous to get banned for D/Cing in a bot game (esp because I reconnected like 5 mins later and we won anyways).
On December 10 2015 09:16 nafta wrote: How the fuck is it wrong? Starting on the otherside of the map completely changes how the lanes play.... Even if it is slightly slower it just creates pressure without even doing anything. For some champs it isn't even slower...
Well if its not slower its not wrong.
In season 5 at least starting red side was typically significantly slower.
for Quinn (last patch idk now) you only have to use one health pot to full clear if you start golems so I personally considered it a lot better.
On December 10 2015 11:58 Zess wrote: I just got flagged by the LeaveBuster for D/Cing from a bot game last night. I had to leave the game so that I could relaunch the client to reconnect.
I was always under the impression that Riot's algorithms were statistically solid and all the ppl QQing were just toxic and subject to poor-self-reflection biases, but I've been only playing bot games for first win for the last 2 months and don't think I've ever left a game before being able to reconnect.
Is this part of the new "Instant Feedback" system? Does it depend on whether you get reported for being AFK or not? I understand the "don't play ranked games if your internet is unstable" part but it'd be pretty ridiculous to get banned for D/Cing in a bot game (esp because I reconnected like 5 mins later and we won anyways).
The worst is when it makes you promise to not DC/AFK in the future. What am I, 7?
i like the new poppy still not sure what to build on her been going triforce-deadman into full tank not sure if blackcleaver or something else is better
On December 10 2015 10:32 Kinie wrote: On red side I go Gromp > Blue > Red > Wolves > Raptor > Krugs almost every time.
Sounds like an awful lot of walking to go to red then back to wolves, though.
Yes it is, but the walk is even longer if you go (after taking Red) Raptors > Wolves > Krugs.
The other option (which I've started doing recently on red side) is Wolves third and not smiting, Red fourth and smiting early for HP gain, then rest of the camps before backing.
I used to only jungle Sion for a while, then recently I tried some other ones like Gragas and Heca and jesus the first clear is so much harde. Sion I barely need a potion and I end my first clear with full hp. I'm not exactly a seasoned jungler, but I wanted to try something else. what other champs got it easy in terms of clearspeed and sustain/health?
Ok just had a 10 thunderlords game. What great mastery balance riot. It's not like anyone who took one look at the changes said this would happen. Oh wait...
Elise/lee/xin/udyr/zac/kindred/quinn/graves/trundle are the ones that spring to mind but there are more just gotta look through the champions
Trundle would rather get Grasp I think. Precision helps his steroids and armour shred but his shtick is being a slippery tanky fuck who'll steal your stats and ruin your day, not burst you down.
If we have Hand of Bullshit, Thunderlord must be like "Balancelord" or something.
I'm pretty convinced that Thunderlord is actually not the problem. Precision is the problem.
thunderlords isnt a problem, its just they made every other keystone so shitty that people are taking the cunning tree for precision and thunderlord even when its not a good tree for their champ.
ironically though fervor is even more abusable on trundle now since you dont need to push to activate it.
now you can just freeze waves easily and zone anyone that isnt very strong early. auto bite cancel auto and already 6 stacks LOL. enjoy trundle this patch before he gets turned into galio next patch (strong champ with obscene mana costs if the reference isnt clear)
Ten TLD is probably a sign of groupthink more than actual OPness.
For example I don't see enough people taking Grasp of the Bullshit despite it being simultaneously one of the best sustain and damage masteries in lane. On Trundle at level one, it's +15AD and 25% lifesteal for that AA. That's insane! Imagine if the tooltip said, every four seconds, your next AA against a champion is empowered as if you had two Doran's Blades plus the lifesteal of two BotRKs -- at level one!
On December 10 2015 19:48 JonnyLaw wrote: Are you starting W on Xin? I can full clear every camp with a pot left over. The heal on w really makes a difference.
If you're talking to me, I usually start Q level 1 and get W second, but I'm barely any HP down from Gromp. I lose a bit of hp vs. blue so I end up taking scuttler and go wolves > wraith > red. At this point I'm basically full hp, I look for a gank, golem. Then I just back because I want stalkers + boots.
On December 11 2015 00:36 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ten TLD is probably a sign of groupthink more than actual OPness.
For example I don't see enough people taking Grasp of the Bullshit despite it being simultaneously one of the best sustain and damage masteries in lane. On Trundle at level one, it's +15AD and 25% lifesteal for that AA. That's insane! Imagine if the tooltip said, every four seconds, your next AA against a champion is empowered as if you had two Doran's Blades plus the lifesteal of two BotRKs -- at level one!
its because you're biased, trundle and nasus are some of the champs it is extremely good on aka outliers.
very few champs want to go 18 into resolve, its incredibly bad if you arent an auto attacking bruiser.
but yes grasp is pretty much the only good mastery left. but who would ever take that besides top laners and a few junglers..?
Thunderlords is good on everyone and everything, hell i've even seen trundle and nasus' take it and do just fine.
I would totally recommend every jungler take Strength of Ages. The 300 hp is super super good. I'll probably play some Vi and Poppy jungle this evening. What's good for them?
I'm still a little skeptical about the cunning tree, though it's very possible that will change once I bother actually trying it out.
Actually I might go 6/6/18 so I can pick up assassin. On the other hand, I'll miss oppressor. Assassin is 1.5% more dmg (most of the time) and Oppressor is 2.5% when enemies are CC'd. I mean, enemies aren't CC'd a 100% of the time, but they are a lot of the time... the extra 5 damage from the cunning tree is really nice though, so I guess that works out.
People do take it when they are playing tahm/mundo(when the person banning is stupid and they make it to picks) and some others. The problem is with how keystones are made so many people picking this mastery is just an obvious problem.
Or you could just go thunderlord on vi and basically have a 100% kill on ganks you can land your ult on.
On December 11 2015 00:36 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ten TLD is probably a sign of groupthink more than actual OPness.
For example I don't see enough people taking Grasp of the Bullshit despite it being simultaneously one of the best sustain and damage masteries in lane. On Trundle at level one, it's +15AD and 25% lifesteal for that AA. That's insane! Imagine if the tooltip said, every four seconds, your next AA against a champion is empowered as if you had two Doran's Blades plus the lifesteal of two BotRKs -- at level one!
its because you're biased, trundle and nasus are some of the champs it is extremely good on aka outliers.
very few champs want to go 18 into resolve, its incredibly bad if you arent an auto attacking bruiser.
but yes grasp is pretty much the only good mastery left. but who would ever take that besides top laners and a few junglers..?
Thunderlords is good on everyone and everything, hell i've even seen trundle and nasus' take it and do just fine.
That is the problem.
Eh. Everyone using the same masteries is the best possible outcome for me given the item changes that make builds actually affect the way the game is played. Totally fine having only champ select and item buying as the only impact choices.
Febiven's stream is pretty awesome. So glad he is finally on twitch. He for sure knows how to carry soloq games. Anybody know who he is duoing with ? "Godisgreat" is the acc. Does pretty well in the jungle every game I saw so far, then goes randomly top with Riven 16-4 and they win 4on5.
I'm not sure where I'd go on Irelia. Hiten Style doesn't benefit from all the %damage increase or %ability damage increase. Fervor could look nice (she can't stack it like the others since you usually want to hold onto your Q and not start with it), and I don't know if most of her non-Hiten damage coming from autos would make penetration interesting on her. I guess 18-0-12 to get sustain in lane and Fervor? Corruption start is obvious, not sure if Triforce or Rageblade now that the latter has been nerfed. Sterak's is part of the package and if you're going 2x offensive items it's both Rageblade and Triforce, ignoring BotRK I assume.
Jax can trigger Decree super easily and it goes well with his harass pattern, but Fervor's better if you keep fighting. Rageblade, Triforce or Gunblade? Or even all 3. But I have no idea which masteries to use on him.
I guess TP or Ignite is going to depend on the match-up for these two.
I'm looking at hydra right now and it seems super nice because of the AA reset. I'm really liking the trinity of Hydra + DMP + Sheen item (Triforce or IBG) for a really nasty spell>double empowered auto>hydra>auto w/ thunderlord or whatever other. Or something like that, haven;t completely worked out the combo in my head.
Not Irelia specifically, but the amount of burst + tankiness seems pretty insane.
it's an icon, it's for the allstars event, I assume it will only last until the end of the event similar to the team emotes for worlds.
On December 11 2015 02:22 Kenpark wrote: Febiven's stream is pretty awesome. So glad he is finally on twitch. He for sure knows how to carry soloq games. Anybody know who he is duoing with ? "Godisgreat" is the acc. Does pretty well in the jungle every game I saw so far, then goes randomly top with Riven 16-4 and they win 4on5.
dunno if he's in EU yet but Spirit always had a pocket Riven he played several times on blue and in his debut for WE
It's for All-Stars, people bought icons that change their mastery emote (the statue-like stuff with wings unlocked when you reached mastery rank 5 with a champion) into the fire or ice logo, and gives them kill animations. It'll be disabled after all stars (or probably in the next patch).
On December 11 2015 03:29 Slusher wrote: it's an icon, it's for the allstars event, I assume it will only last until the end of the event similar to the team emotes for worlds.
On December 11 2015 02:22 Kenpark wrote: Febiven's stream is pretty awesome. So glad he is finally on twitch. He for sure knows how to carry soloq games. Anybody know who he is duoing with ? "Godisgreat" is the acc. Does pretty well in the jungle every game I saw so far, then goes randomly top with Riven 16-4 and they win 4on5.
dunno if he's in EU yet but Spirit always had a pocket Riven he played several times on blue and in his debut for WE
Apparently its PerkZ, midlaner from Gamers2, who just turned 17. Guy looks like an absolut beast from what you can tell from soloq. Maybe the next big midlaner out of EU. Gonna watch this guy.
After trying Rageblade on Irelia... ugh, it feels awful. Helps a lot with the waveclear, but the lack of MS (either Phage passive or BotRK active) makes it so easy for people to escape from you, what with the improved MS passives and all. Basically means you have to build either DMP (not a fan since its tankiness is a tad on the weak side compared to other options) or another offensive item second.
I think I'd try to stick with Triforce, even if Sheen is nerfed. Being able to keep people in Q range for the 3-4s it needs to come off cd translates to a lot more damage in realistic scenarios.
On December 11 2015 06:11 Alaric wrote: After trying Rageblade on Irelia... ugh, it feels awful. Helps a lot with the waveclear, but the lack of MS (either Phage passive or BotRK active) makes it so easy for people to escape from you, what with the improved MS passives and all. Basically means you have to build either DMP (not a fan since its tankiness is a tad on the weak side compared to other options) or another offensive item second.
I think I'd try to stick with Triforce, even if Sheen is nerfed. Being able to keep people in Q range for the 3-4s it needs to come off cd translates to a lot more damage in realistic scenarios.
I mean, I think Triforce is still the go-to first item because of smooth build up. But I could see guinsoo's being a pretty good 2nd item buy, or perhaps doing a 1.5 item build of Phage -> Guinsoos -> Triforce.
I feel like a completed Triforce is still stronger than Rageblade+partial item, just because it coincides so well with when Irelia is strong, and the Spellblade passive is a lot of burst. Sure, a stacked Rageblade provides a lot of stats, but the AP doesn't see much use (you used most of your ult and your E by that point) and it's ramping up, while you're playing as an assassin at that point, so I'd rather have the burst, and the mobility from Zeal+Phage is really important. It doesn't matter if people escape with 50 or 300 HP if I can't catch up to them, basically.
Played Illaoi too. Against Gnar, which looks like another braindead lane for him, since he's fast and everything you do is slow, and he's ranged so he can kill your tentacles safely. I didn't realise they're always visible, so there's no point to hide them in the bush. I really felt miserable in teamfights (they had Annie and Poppy) as I'd ult, W someone, the tentacles would auto once, W would come back off cd, I'd attack and die right after, and the tentacles wouldn't attack because of that.
Her animations are really slow and I think that's what punishes her most, from my experiences. Whenever I do something, it takes almost 2 seconds before something happens in return. Her highs are high (in a poro king game I managed to get spirits on two people, when the fight erupted and I got to ult the tentacles attacked by themselves and wrecked the entire enemy team) but it feels really, really hard to get something going on.
One thing I missed after the games is about the damage distribution; what do I do myself, and what comes from the tentacles (as in during my ult or after someone got branded by E). It's hard to appreciate when 2 tentacles smash the enemy team after an ult, applying BC stacks and allowing a lot of damage, or when it's your Q, autos and the result of a E pull that damages someone. Also when you get a spirit and destroy it, if the enemy ran away you can't really appreciate how much damage they took (out of vision, etc.) and the damage the brand will cause offscreen (likely not much, once people learn what she does). It's more about post-game stats in general than Illaoi, though, she's just a good candidate because of her kit. Or Zyra with a damage comparison between her plants and regular abilities.
Rageblade doesn't really make sense to me on Irelia. It's a sustained damage item, and she's an assassin. Well, assassin-ish. You really want something that enhances your burst.
If we have Hand of Bullshit, Thunderlord must be like "Balancelord" or something.
I'm pretty convinced that Thunderlord is actually not the problem. Precision is the problem.
The problem with Decree is that before they buffed it, it was bugged. The ratios were actually coded backwards so it was doing 10% Bonus AD and 20% AP. So, since the time when they decided "We need to buff this, it's too weak." they effectively tripped the ratio.
On December 11 2015 00:36 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ten TLD is probably a sign of groupthink more than actual OPness.
For example I don't see enough people taking Grasp of the Bullshit despite it being simultaneously one of the best sustain and damage masteries in lane. On Trundle at level one, it's +15AD and 25% lifesteal for that AA. That's insane! Imagine if the tooltip said, every four seconds, your next AA against a champion is empowered as if you had two Doran's Blades plus the lifesteal of two BotRKs -- at level one!
its because you're biased, trundle and nasus are some of the champs it is extremely good on aka outliers.
very few champs want to go 18 into resolve, its incredibly bad if you arent an auto attacking bruiser.
but yes grasp is pretty much the only good mastery left. but who would ever take that besides top laners and a few junglers..?
Thunderlords is good on everyone and everything, hell i've even seen trundle and nasus' take it and do just fine.
That is the problem.
See I think Resolve actually has by far the best keystone masteries. The three are all meant for tanky champs only, but there are compelling reasons for nearly every tank to take any of the three. (Or there will be, as soon as Strength of Ages is buffed a bit w/r/t siege minions.) It's a question of playstyle, and Grasp/Strength/Bond are all nice in their own ways.
Cunning is not terrible in that regard, except for the fact that Windspeaker's Blessing is completely useless on the vast majority of champs. But the Stormraider's Surge vs. Thunderlord's Decree is in theory a great tradeoff - were it not for the fact that your average player will never really care about anything other than damage, since so long as there is any option that reads DO EXTRA DAMAGE they will always take it.
Ferocity is the worst in the regard, insofar as BOTH Warlord's Bloodlust and Fervor are useless on the vast majority of champs. But I suspect that even if Precision hadn't been buffed, and Deathfire Touch nerfed, you'd still see Thunderlord's Decree on the vast majority of masteries, simply because it has a cool damage effect.
Ultimately the only way to fix this is is to get rid of pure damage keystones. Replace TLD with something like Expose Weakness, and replace Deathfire Touch with Spellblade, and I think you will see a lot more variety in keystones than if you just straight-up nerf TLD.
On December 11 2015 00:36 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ten TLD is probably a sign of groupthink more than actual OPness.
For example I don't see enough people taking Grasp of the Bullshit despite it being simultaneously one of the best sustain and damage masteries in lane. On Trundle at level one, it's +15AD and 25% lifesteal for that AA. That's insane! Imagine if the tooltip said, every four seconds, your next AA against a champion is empowered as if you had two Doran's Blades plus the lifesteal of two BotRKs -- at level one!
its because you're biased, trundle and nasus are some of the champs it is extremely good on aka outliers.
very few champs want to go 18 into resolve, its incredibly bad if you arent an auto attacking bruiser.
but yes grasp is pretty much the only good mastery left. but who would ever take that besides top laners and a few junglers..?
Thunderlords is good on everyone and everything, hell i've even seen trundle and nasus' take it and do just fine.
That is the problem.
See I think Resolve actually has by far the best keystone masteries. The three are all meant for tanky champs only, but there are compelling reasons for nearly every tank to take any of the three. (Or there will be, as soon as Strength of Ages is buffed a bit w/r/t siege minions.) It's a question of playstyle, and Grasp/Strength/Bond are all nice in their own ways.
Cunning is not terrible in that regard, except for the fact that Windspeaker's Blessing is completely useless on the vast majority of champs. But the Stormraider's Surge vs. Thunderlord's Decree is in theory a great tradeoff - were it not for the fact that your average player will never really care about anything other than damage, since so long as there is any option that reads DO EXTRA DAMAGE they will always take it.
Ferocity is the worst in the regard, insofar as BOTH Warlord's Bloodlust and Fervor are useless on the vast majority of champs. But I suspect that even if Precision hadn't been buffed, and Deathfire Touch nerfed, you'd still see Thunderlord's Decree on the vast majority of masteries, simply because it has a cool damage effect.
Ultimately the only way to fix this is is to get rid of pure damage keystones. Replace TLD with something like Expose Weakness, and replace Deathfire Touch with Spellblade, and I think you will see a lot more variety in keystones than if you just straight-up nerf TLD.
This makes a lot of sense and seems like a rather good solution to the problem. I assumed that Keystone masteries were going to be more about "altering play through weird effects" but instead they just put a bunch of pure damage ones in which felt really weird.
I agree that resolve has the best overall tree for keystones but overall its a terrible tree for the majority of champs.
and I completely disagree with your assessment of thunderlords, the NA vs EU all stars game they were NOT fucking around minus dyrus and there was a billion thunderlords. they aren't taking it cause "lol leet damages" people are taking it because it is the best option to win...
Praise be to Thunderlords. This is not a balance problem, its a balance solution. No more wasting time on out of game choices aside from whether I play Olaf or Jax.
I super agree with the idea that resolve has the best keystones and Ferocity has the worst.
Warlords is fine, but Fervor and DFT work in such a way that they're fairly identical and a given champ is probably only going to want one of them and never want the other. So, with a couple exceptions, its sort of like Ferocity only has two keystones ATM.
I don't think looking at pro games, especially NA vs EU, is going to prove to be a great indicator of mastery strength. Progamers have historically not been great at optimizing masteries outside of Korea.
I think having keystones that do damage is fine. But having masteries with huge amounts of hidden power like Precision is counterintuitive to their design goals.
Precision is stronger than both tier 5 Ferocity masteries put together, and that's not immediately clear till you do math to find it out. And due to the early game impact of Precision, its not just stronger, its much stronger.
Its also not immediately clear whether it's Thunderlords making the big damage difference or precision. I'd wager I could do a lot of math to show you that Thunderlords and DFT are adding similar amounts of damage on a majority of champions, but it won't seem like that in a live game due to how overtuned Precision is.
Unfortunately for Riot, the solution I think is likely to nerf Precision a lot, and then subsequently buff every Assassin in the game.
The other solution might be to remove DFT from the game, put Thunderlords in Ferocity, and add another utility keystone to Cunning, but I don't think that's what they want to do. Even if they did that I think it might just make Stormraider surge super popular just because Precision.
I'm interested in seeing what they actually end up doing.
The assassin problem is peel is too strong in this game. Excluding a few champs like rengar/talon/leblanc(if ahead) none of the assassins have a kit good enough to deal with it. They need items to do that job or hard nerfs to every single peeler. Also exhaust... And at any point that assassins start becoming relevant people are just gonna start picking kayle and zilean again who are both viable with some changes now....
Why do you keep talking like nobody knows precision is broken?
Speaking of pros being bad at masteries I just saw febiven take 5% cdr over precision on vayne. Maybe people are that retarded.
Pretty sure it was. The shurima shift was way too inconsistent before, and after removing a lot of Azir's straight power, they probably want to give him some more hidden power.
On December 12 2015 06:34 Nos- wrote: Just play against your friends and shit on them so they know they're not good instead of having some excuse to blame other people.
Nah, people with external locus of control just continue making excuses as to why they're stuck in the ELO they're in.
They'll bitch about rng when you crit, or they'll bitch about luckerdog minion damage, or whatever bullshit they can make up.
Lost lane to Draven as Irelia when he crit me on his fourth auto at level 1 (then later during an all-in at level 6 that turned a kill into a death), can confirm. o/ Well to be fair he had 5% crit in his runes. And our Elise got crit twice in three attacks from that a bit later, so he can def' bitch more than me.
On December 12 2015 07:03 Alaric wrote: Lost lane to Draven as Irelia when he crit me on his fourth auto at level 1 (then later during an all-in at level 6 that turned a kill into a death), can confirm. o/ Well to be fair he had 5% crit in his runes. And our Elise got crit twice in three attacks from that a bit later, so he can def' bitch more than me.
I mean, JimmiC was being nice, trying not to out you as his crappy bronze friend....
On December 12 2015 07:14 nafta wrote: Actually if draven is good you can smash irelia in a 1v1 incredibly easily.
For some reason people seem to think that marksmen are bad in 1v1s when they are by far the strongest.
really I don't think I've ever had a problem as Irelia in that kind of lane. Maybe the people playing them just weren't good.
Well he is ranged he can block your q with his e. Without any jungle assistance he can just kill you easily if he plays it properly.
The reason champs like draven aren't played in solo lanes is because they get ganked and die easily. Not because they suck at 1v1. I mean just look at any 1v1 tournament. Pretty much everyone picks only ads.
I'm pretty sure Irelia would beat him starting from level 5 if he doesn't play around the wave carefully, and since it's her versus a squishy if she gets a single kill she'll snowball really fast. You can't fight him at level 1 though and he harassed me a bit. Not too much, until out of nowhere I take 141 damage (at level 1) from the axe crit. With that I can't get near the wave at all, he shoves a big one under the turret and he keeps harassing whenever I try to get a cs. He ended up getting a kill from a dive and snowballed.
I am not saying draven is a good champ to pick into irelia. I am saying in a strict 1v1 draven can definitely win the matchup pre6 and even snowball hard enough to be stronger after.
On December 12 2015 07:14 nafta wrote: Actually if draven is good you can smash irelia in a 1v1 incredibly easily.
For some reason people seem to think that marksmen are bad in 1v1s when they are by far the strongest.
really I don't think I've ever had a problem as Irelia in that kind of lane. Maybe the people playing them just weren't good.
Well he is ranged he can block your q with his e. Without any jungle assistance he can just kill you easily if he plays it properly.
The reason champs like draven aren't played in solo lanes is because they get ganked and die easily. Not because they suck at 1v1. I mean just look at any 1v1 tournament. Pretty much everyone picks only ads.
A lot of this has to do with really shitty 1v1 tournament rules, such as 100cs first, etc.
EUW doesn't work at the moment? Client kicked me out after I finished a game, when I restarted the game I had to wait in queue for 5 mins, then it says "logging on..." and nothing happens. This brings back horrible memories from S2
Edit: It finally logged but it says I left a match in progress and my only option is to click Reconnect, which does nothing because I hadn't left a game, I last hitted the nexus myself
On December 13 2015 05:10 739 wrote: I'm just wondering if they will nerf Azir asap, because if you gonna let him to drift like you're able to do now, he's gonna be OP as hell.
Part of the Azir problem is his utility is not accessible to 99% of the players. And Riot's not gonna leave Azir at 40% winrate in gold because they think hes cool. Even though, to be balanced, he should probably be ~30% in gold.
I feel like these Azir changes were logical in that technically all of that was possible before, it was just really REALLY fucking difficult to do, and even if you knew how to do it and were good at it with low ping and shit it would sometimes just bug and not happen.
But I wouldn't be surprised at all if, now that its fixed and "working as intended", he gets hit with some more nerfs.
Isn't that the story of Azir? Bugfix one patch, nerf next patch.
On December 13 2015 09:21 Ansibled wrote: They should have kept Azir stuff difficult I think, there aren't enough difficult champions as it is.
The difficulty comes from latency, not skill in many situations. Not everybody plays on sub 20 ping, and some things, for example alistar WQ, is very difficult to pull off at 100+ ping. It's not difficult to do, but sometimes on that much ping even if you mash the button you won't be able to do it.
In this case I'm with Riot because doing this allows more players to utilize the functionality of Azir's kit, while also opening up some new flashy plays.
I don`t understand why every champion has to be playable by the average league player. There should be champs that only people who are really good and have low ping are able to play.
On December 13 2015 17:07 nafta wrote: I don`t understand why every champion has to be playable by the average league player. There should be champs that only people who are really good and have low ping are able to play.
Because it would suck to really like a champion but not be able to play it half decently due to mediocre mechanics or where you live(while still playing in your region).
On December 13 2015 17:07 nafta wrote: I don`t understand why every champion has to be playable by the average league player. There should be champs that only people who are really good and have low ping are able to play.
Because it would suck to really like a champion but not be able to play it half decently due to mediocre mechanics or where you live(while still playing in your region).
Get better? That is the whole point of competitive games? If you aren't competitive you will just play it anyway and not give a shit lol.
Not to mention a lot of champs are already useless compared to others if you aren't good not like it stops people from playing them.
It is honestly so sad how much great stuff in this game isn't added just for shitty reasons like this. At least they realized adding abilities that take away control from allied champs isn't gonna ruin the game...
Anyone else having problems with squishy supports at the moment?, i find squishy support are harder now more than ever. It was always the "get grabbed=bye" concept but with new items, champions reworks/new champions, and mastery changes it seems everything got better at catching/zoning your squishy ass while no buffs were interduced to help squishes[well soraka got better because of mastery but her she's still easy to catch).
Maybe i'm doing something wrong but i feel like everything is faster, hits harder, takes less damage while you try to poke with sona q or lulu q, just to slip once and get fucked.
Yeah, i cant heal or shield that much damage. But the main issue is later, because of new items and adc/top reworks and items it's way easier to get caught off and die, even if you use your skills which just doesnt do enough now.
It's like not that squishy support suck that bad now but the the risk reward now it's way more risk for the same reward
the thing i find annoying in thunderlords is it changes melee vs ranged solo lane dynamic, it gives ranged champions extra early harass dmg which burns through my sustain and forces me out of lane a lot earlier especially now when early sustain start sucks u cant start flask + 3hp potions like before or start camp buy pots on top of that tp isnt even half as good as it was
To me it looks like from patch to patch riot is getting closer and closer to balance the game and make it similar to season 5 in terms of relevant balance. They need to tweak the masteries a bit more, maybe few items and few champs as well and we will have relative balance.
Of course every offensive champ/build will have an optimal path and only tanks/supports will have diversity in their builds from game to game, I don't think this can be changed ever (unless the game is redesigned from scratch), but at least they will be different from last season and this will somehow keep the game fresh, kind of
I think its a bit more than just squishy supports - at the end of the day, if a champion doesn't have enough mobility to counter frontline aggression from tanks and enough damage and/or utility to be relevant then that champion is useless. Sona and Zyra don't offer enough on a limited gold budget to be relevant at all. Syndra (which I am mad salty about rn because shes not getting the love Rito promised :/) Had all of her items nerfed and now just gets jumped on and merced if she cannot kill anyone. Just goes to show that if you buff tanks by buffing all of their underlying support systems as a class you just phase out all the champions that don't deal well with high hp heroes.
That and if you give diving fighters buffs as well. What a rough preseason dawg.
Sona and Zyra are kinda good in lane (walking the razor wire of "not getting hooked" as you say), but are pretty much ult bots if your team isn't significantly ahead. That just doesn't fly anymore and kind of pushes them into the Lux-tier of support: cheesy and has a good chance at winning lane, but results in a 3v5 if you aren't winning after the end of lane.
It makes no sense to play like that when you have Thresh and Bard, who are moderately tanky, do solid damage and have amazing kits, or Janna (massive utility) and Brand (massive damage).
On the other hand, my roommate who finally started playing LoL hates Zyra bot. Her damage+CC is pretty good if she gets some farm, and the bot having perfect reflexes makes her pretty hilarious.
Zyra needs a certain amount of setup to get her damage out, Brand you press buttons and then trigger his passive burn.
I've also admitted in a previous post that I'm not very good with Zyra, I play most supports at my actual rank, but my Zyra is probably like Gold or something.
Dude, you need to chill out. I get the vibe you're constantly trying to pick a fight with me or something.
You really don't need a setup. Honestly her only problem is her passive is too hard to hit.
That is just how I shitpost.
Right now most mage supports are really good in lane and overall honestly. Just because they die easier than before if you fuckup hard isn't the end of the world. FQC is just way too good.
Also compared to last season where everyone went 0/9/21 now precision+thunderlord/windspeaker is such a big difference.
Zyra support relies too much on the non-retardedness of teammates. Otherwise your chasing 4 derping chickens while they run past your plants and you never get a chance to get a multi-player ult until its 2v5
On December 15 2015 07:24 nafta wrote: Yea and the same derping chickens are gonna run into you for no reason as well.
She is a disengage support so obviously she really works if you pick properly.
For sure. I also suppose its very stylistic. If you are good at being patient and enabling that in teammates it works ( in S3 I did this alot with Zyra/Janna) but that's suboptimal now for my kindest, and that of my teammates (it seems).
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
It used to not trigger on large monsters, so I'm going to assume it's talking about the you/nearby split.
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
+20 HP and +10 MaxHP?
Actually it's probably just 10 for jungle things since there are more of them.
On December 15 2015 08:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: How does Strength of the Ages work?
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
It used to not trigger on large monsters, so I'm going to assume it's talking about the you/nearby split.
20 on large monsters/ siege minions, so basically kill 15 camps and you max out the 300. 10 is for when a monster/siege is killed near you, so as a jungler you theoretically could pick up extra 10's if you walk by a lane when the siege minion dies.
On December 15 2015 07:24 nafta wrote: Yea and the same derping chickens are gonna run into you for no reason as well.
She is a disengage support so obviously she really works if you pick properly.
Zyra and Brand are in the same vein. AP Supports that you actually want to build AP on (instead of tanky supports or healing/shielding/cdr supports) and they manage to do silly amounts of damage with just Liandry's and 1-2 items.
But can they be rather hit or miss, depending on RNG and positioning in team fights. I feel like Zyra takes more skill and has a high skill cap/DPS than Brand as a result.
On December 15 2015 08:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: How does Strength of the Ages work?
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
It used to not trigger on large monsters, so I'm going to assume it's talking about the you/nearby split.
20 on large monsters/ siege minions, so basically kill 15 camps and you max out the 300. 10 is for when a monster/siege is killed near you, so as a jungler you theoretically could pick up extra 10's if you walk by a lane when the siege minion dies.
Err, shit, well now I'm unsure.
No it's 20 for siege minion and 10 for large monsters if you or a teammate near you kills them. And 0 if the tower or your minions kill them.
On December 15 2015 04:48 Purge wrote: I think its a bit more than just squishy supports - at the end of the day, if a champion doesn't have enough mobility to counter frontline aggression from tanks and enough damage and/or utility to be relevant then that champion is useless. Sona and Zyra don't offer enough on a limited gold budget to be relevant at all. Syndra (which I am mad salty about rn because shes not getting the love Rito promised :/) Had all of her items nerfed and now just gets jumped on and merced if she cannot kill anyone. Just goes to show that if you buff tanks by buffing all of their underlying support systems as a class you just phase out all the champions that don't deal well with high hp heroes.
That and if you give diving fighters buffs as well. What a rough preseason dawg.
I think the go to Syndra build at the moment is RoA then Morello. From there you build situationally. Grail just seems really sucky nowadays, and like you said, you just get jumped on. RoA health helps in that regard, but you need/want CDR so badly.
Riot shouldn't have savaged her Q so much. 20 damage at level 1 was massive. Not to mention her stun still only functions 80% of the time.
On December 15 2015 08:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: How does Strength of the Ages work?
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
It used to not trigger on large monsters, so I'm going to assume it's talking about the you/nearby split.
20 on large monsters/ siege minions, so basically kill 15 camps and you max out the 300. 10 is for when a monster/siege is killed near you, so as a jungler you theoretically could pick up extra 10's if you walk by a lane when the siege minion dies.
Err, shit, well now I'm unsure.
No it's 20 for siege minion and 10 for large monsters if you or a teammate near you kills them. And 0 if the tower or your minions kill them.
So it's 30 camps to max it
Well that sort of contradicts what the wiki says, but it's also the more intuitive reading of that sentence. Also if that's the case, how come everyone says it stacks too slowly in lane? Does 15 siege minions take longer than 30 camps?
On December 15 2015 04:48 Purge wrote: I think its a bit more than just squishy supports - at the end of the day, if a champion doesn't have enough mobility to counter frontline aggression from tanks and enough damage and/or utility to be relevant then that champion is useless. Sona and Zyra don't offer enough on a limited gold budget to be relevant at all. Syndra (which I am mad salty about rn because shes not getting the love Rito promised :/) Had all of her items nerfed and now just gets jumped on and merced if she cannot kill anyone. Just goes to show that if you buff tanks by buffing all of their underlying support systems as a class you just phase out all the champions that don't deal well with high hp heroes.
That and if you give diving fighters buffs as well. What a rough preseason dawg.
I think the go to Syndra build at the moment is RoA then Morello. From there you build situationally. Grail just seems really sucky nowadays, and like you said, you just get jumped on. RoA health helps in that regard, but you need/want CDR so badly.
Riot shouldn't have savaged her Q so much. 20 damage at level 1 was massive. Not to mention her stun still only functions 80% of the time.
On December 15 2015 08:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: How does Strength of the Ages work?
Siege minions and large monsters that you or nearby allies kill grant you 20 and 10 permanent Health respectively (300 max). After reaching the max bonus further nearby Siege minion kills restore 100 Health.
Do you get 20HP for the siege minion and 10HP for the large monster, or 20HP for killing and 10HP for watching it die?
It used to not trigger on large monsters, so I'm going to assume it's talking about the you/nearby split.
20 on large monsters/ siege minions, so basically kill 15 camps and you max out the 300. 10 is for when a monster/siege is killed near you, so as a jungler you theoretically could pick up extra 10's if you walk by a lane when the siege minion dies.
Err, shit, well now I'm unsure.
No it's 20 for siege minion and 10 for large monsters if you or a teammate near you kills them. And 0 if the tower or your minions kill them.
So it's 30 camps to max it
Well that sort of contradicts what the wiki says, but it's also the more intuitive reading of that sentence. Also if that's the case, how come everyone says it stacks too slowly in lane? Does 15 siege minions take longer than 30 camps?
24 minute mark would be the spawn of your last seige minion, assuming you are perfect.
Its kind of late, but also you are losing laning power, which junglers worry less about. Also, a jungler ends up with more passive stacks when teammates kill siege minions than a top does in a typical game.
To get SotA full stacked, you'd need 15 siege minions* 1.5 minutes +1.5 minutes, so 24 minutes. That's a similar time to when I finish stacking it in the jungle, and presumably how Riot attempted to balance it. Kind of hard to miss a jungle camp, but there's always the chance you miss a siege minion when back or zoned though. Potentially losing a siege minion is a pretty hefty opportunity cost for backing, roaming, etc. when you have SotA.
On December 15 2015 04:48 Purge wrote: I think its a bit more than just squishy supports - at the end of the day, if a champion doesn't have enough mobility to counter frontline aggression from tanks and enough damage and/or utility to be relevant then that champion is useless. Sona and Zyra don't offer enough on a limited gold budget to be relevant at all. Syndra (which I am mad salty about rn because shes not getting the love Rito promised :/) Had all of her items nerfed and now just gets jumped on and merced if she cannot kill anyone. Just goes to show that if you buff tanks by buffing all of their underlying support systems as a class you just phase out all the champions that don't deal well with high hp heroes.
That and if you give diving fighters buffs as well. What a rough preseason dawg.
I think the go to Syndra build at the moment is RoA then Morello. From there you build situationally. Grail just seems really sucky nowadays, and like you said, you just get jumped on. RoA health helps in that regard, but you need/want CDR so badly.
Riot shouldn't have savaged her Q so much. 20 damage at level 1 was massive. Not to mention her stun still only functions 80% of the time.
Don't you just build FQC on everyone?
Yeah I think FQC first item is actually really good right now on a lot of champions. RoA still seems like a noob trap on everything not named Ryze to me.
I kinda like FQC into ROA on Karma Mid/Top (with cdr boots and cdr/lvl blues). Sounds really stupid, but plays nice because you never run out of mana, even without blue.
On December 15 2015 04:48 Purge wrote: I think its a bit more than just squishy supports - at the end of the day, if a champion doesn't have enough mobility to counter frontline aggression from tanks and enough damage and/or utility to be relevant then that champion is useless. Sona and Zyra don't offer enough on a limited gold budget to be relevant at all. Syndra (which I am mad salty about rn because shes not getting the love Rito promised :/) Had all of her items nerfed and now just gets jumped on and merced if she cannot kill anyone. Just goes to show that if you buff tanks by buffing all of their underlying support systems as a class you just phase out all the champions that don't deal well with high hp heroes.
That and if you give diving fighters buffs as well. What a rough preseason dawg.
I think the go to Syndra build at the moment is RoA then Morello. From there you build situationally. Grail just seems really sucky nowadays, and like you said, you just get jumped on. RoA health helps in that regard, but you need/want CDR so badly.
Riot shouldn't have savaged her Q so much. 20 damage at level 1 was massive. Not to mention her stun still only functions 80% of the time.
Yeah those nerfs stomped her into irrelevancy. I play her and after im done maxing E i just fall off if I fall behind. Not fun.
I also tried that build after i snooped the 3 top KR ladder players using it but maybe imo i leaves you weaker than u should be when you should be a god because its charging.
When I next get a chance I'll be testing FQC-> Guise-> Needlessly. FQC is broken efficient and just stacking gold efficient items on it seems like only way to give yourself options. Getting Guise stacks your midgame damage, gives you hp and makes Liandries cheaper when people start hitting the 3k hp mark.
Edit: The only reason why I suggested Lia is that apparently according to Rito NLR items were nerfed down to the gold efficiency of Liandries and other such items. So All mages are just to get it if they need counters to health stacking.
FQC is getting nerfed on the PBE for mid laners. The tribute passive is disabled after killing a minion (like the previous two items in the spellthief line). I can't see it being worth it after that.
On December 16 2015 07:07 JazzVortical wrote: FQC is getting nerfed on the PBE for mid laners. The tribute passive is disabled after killing a minion (like the previous two items in the spellthief line). I can't see it being worth it after that.
As it should be and probably just an oversight. Its a gold steroid for free right now that makes Morellos and grail irrelevant w/ the amount of mana it gives. After this I see just like grail again.... although even after the nerfs ill be checking because its pretty efficient w/o the passive.
re Graves dude:
Just give it some more games, his gameplay is alot more strange but frankly its way more interesting. There is a whole thread on reddit rn on this topic w/ ppl discussing the pros and cons (its incredibly biased, but not as bad as usual). there a couple good comments in there that i dont have time to link, but ppl were talking about animation cancels that open up more autos for graves.
I personally find him way more fun to play with and against.
On December 16 2015 00:55 Prog wrote: I kinda like FQC into ROA on Karma Mid/Top (with cdr boots and cdr/lvl blues). Sounds really stupid, but plays nice because you never run out of mana, even without blue.
you dont really go oom without roa either. Played her mid vs anivia with blue while I didnt have one still cleared easily without going oom.
Just play graves in the jungle. Check out "jungle graves" on euw he is insane with it.
On December 16 2015 07:07 JazzVortical wrote: FQC is getting nerfed on the PBE for mid laners. The tribute passive is disabled after killing a minion (like the previous two items in the spellthief line). I can't see it being worth it after that.
As it should be and probably just an oversight. Its a gold steroid for free right now that makes Morellos and grail irrelevant w/ the amount of mana it gives. After this I see just like grail again.... although even after the nerfs ill be checking because its pretty efficient w/o the passive.
re Graves dude:
Just give it some more games, his gameplay is alot more strange but frankly its way more interesting. There is a whole thread on reddit rn on this topic w/ ppl discussing the pros and cons (its incredibly biased, but not as bad as usual). there a couple good comments in there that i dont have time to link, but ppl were talking about animation cancels that open up more autos for graves.
I personally find him way more fun to play with and against.
Eh. Its always going to be a biased thing. If you liked old Graves (I did for a while, was pretty meh about him at the end, and fine the change to be equally meh) you were inevitably going to be disappointed. If you thought he was too much like Lucian you are going to appreciate the change. The same is, more or less, true with the Trist and Kog remakes (the ones I actually disliked quite a bit).
On December 16 2015 00:55 Prog wrote: I kinda like FQC into ROA on Karma Mid/Top (with cdr boots and cdr/lvl blues). Sounds really stupid, but plays nice because you never run out of mana, even without blue.
you dont really go oom without roa either. Played her mid vs anivia with blue while I didnt have one still cleared easily without going oom.
Sure if you are just clearing, but I'm referring more to situations in which you constantly spam your shield as well.
On December 16 2015 00:55 Prog wrote: I kinda like FQC into ROA on Karma Mid/Top (with cdr boots and cdr/lvl blues). Sounds really stupid, but plays nice because you never run out of mana, even without blue.
you dont really go oom without roa either. Played her mid vs anivia with blue while I didnt have one still cleared easily without going oom.
Just play graves in the jungle. Check out "jungle graves" on euw he is insane with it.
The mana regen on FQC is pretty obscene, IMO it's still probably worth it just for utility + mana regen even with the PBE nerf.
Ranged champs are stupid good in jungle right now, the ability to kite + the healing talisman thingy lets them clear so easily.
You lose a great advantage of going FQC though. The gold gen allows you to make up for the low AP value on the item by going like second item DCap (which is insanely expensive) in a more than reasonable amount of time.
The active is great. Maybe if you are completely utility focused (Lulu maybe?) you'll still get it.
On December 16 2015 00:55 Prog wrote: I kinda like FQC into ROA on Karma Mid/Top (with cdr boots and cdr/lvl blues). Sounds really stupid, but plays nice because you never run out of mana, even without blue.
you dont really go oom without roa either. Played her mid vs anivia with blue while I didnt have one still cleared easily without going oom.
Just play graves in the jungle. Check out "jungle graves" on euw he is insane with it.
The mana regen on FQC is pretty obscene, IMO it's still probably worth it just for utility + mana regen even with the PBE nerf.
Ranged champs are stupid good in jungle right now, the ability to kite + the healing talisman thingy lets them clear so easily.
Yup. You just go meditate+this shit and you can't go oom on any support. It is just stupid.
Meditate is such a stupid mastery in general. Same as vampirism. Dunno why do riot add so much sustain in masteries.
I know a mastery the same as meditate existed in s5 but you had to actually trade other useful points for it not get it for free like this.
I can definitely see FQC over Athenes on Lux in matchups where the active stops enemy aggression.
For example, vs Cassiopeia, if you miss a Q she can usually dive on you and force you out of lane. But with FQC I feel like if you miss Q you just pop ghosts and walk away.
I don't think that removing the gold gen kills it at all, I think it just makes it more about the active.
On December 15 2015 05:15 nafta wrote: You really don't need a setup. Honestly her only problem is her passive is too hard to hit.
That is just how I shitpost.
Right now most mage supports are really good in lane and overall honestly. Just because they die easier than before if you fuckup hard isn't the end of the world. FQC is just way too good.
Also compared to last season where everyone went 0/9/21 now precision+thunderlord/windspeaker is such a big difference.
It means alot. The risk reward ratio is heavily against you this time around(unless you are brandy with his godly damage off eveything). Sona/nami/lulu/jenny/zyra all have issues now, if we leave the 100%-0% thing aside(since brandy for one also has this) then the issue is i feel because of new items/masteries/new champs/champ reworks you get less for your skills than you used to. Shields and heals are super meh, poke can be somehwat negated by relic shield/vamp mastery, and out of lane you need to play it perfect clutch skills or your team is going to to suffer.
You can stil do well on them, but you dont actually gain anything for having that way more risk on you. This is how i feel in games now: www.youtube.com
I barely played Nami, Lulu and Zyra support this preseason, but I played some Sona and she felt stronger than ever. Borderline op even. Her laneing is insanely strong and she makes good use of the increased gold for supports. Shields and heals are stronger than last season. Spellthief's is way stronger than before. Less tp toplaners is also great for Sona as you will always be pushing with her.
Her winrate is also higher than ever. Actually, her winrate is one of the highest in the game right now.
I never take winrate into account when discussing anything. The fact that other randomers are doing well or not with a given champion doesn't mean anything to me.
Can i add you guys in game and you show me how it's done?,really need all the help i can get on this, i find her unplayable
Can't really give a real opinion on sona cuz nobody picks her at my mmr. Reminds me of garen. Everyone talks about how good he is and links champion.gg yet I saw a grand total of 1 in 300 or so games.
Eh it's nami, lulu, jenny even too, all the kewl squishis healers. i'd put soraka hear too but new mastery make her indirectly fine. Maybe it's just me not moving on with the times and adjusting my play somehow, we'll see
I mean, you can't simultaneously say that you don't care about win rates, and also complain that Sona is underpowered. Platinum+ players win more with Sona than literally any other support. That strongly suggests that if you are having problems, then the problem is on your end and not that she is underpowered.
On December 17 2015 00:00 GrandInquisitor wrote: I mean, you can't simultaneously say that you don't care about win rates, and also complain that Sona is underpowered. Platinum+ players win more with Sona than literally any other support. That strongly suggests that if you are having problems, then the problem is on your end and not that she is underpowered.
Yeah it could very well be the case, that's why i asked before to add some people up soi can see if it's indeed my play that's obsolete. But win rates in genral i pay no attention to, only to my experience
Well I'm at complete shitlord Elo nowadays but for what it's worth I laned with a decent Sona the other day, it was LITERALLY complete faceroll against 2 squishies, I haven't tried her but she seems to do very well with the changes
Well for other supports that are actually really good cheesy, you should try ali with thunderlord's, and for full cheese mode, open the ap item. Enjoy free thunderlord's with almost every headbutt pulv combo.
I hadn't played Co-op vs AI and Blind pick since Season 1 but a friend recently started League and I went through all the stages with him and holy shit it's like the wild west in there.
Every other game there's bots buying boots first and suiciding down the middle over and over again. Every game people arguing non stop about "ks-ing" and other ridiculous things, calling eachother "retards", "faggots", etc, writing in all chat report X for blablabla then X responds saying no, report Y for blablala.
I don't know how this game keeps growing if new players have to go through all that bullshit. This is on EUW btw, dunno if it's the same in NA and other servers
On December 17 2015 12:52 Dan HH wrote: I hadn't played Co-op vs AI and Blind pick since Season 1 but a friend recently started League and I went through all the stages with him and holy shit it's like the wild west in there.
Every other game there's bots buying boots first and suiciding down the middle over and over again. Every game people arguing non stop about "ks-ing" and other ridiculous things, calling eachother "retards", "faggots", etc, writing in all chat report X for blablabla then X responds saying no, report Y for blablala.
I don't know how this game keeps growing if new players have to go through all that bullshit. This is on EUW btw, dunno if it's the same in NA and other servers
If you're playing with him, you cause other smurfs to appear in his games. Most smurfs are created by people banned on their main accounts.
snowdown store is somewhat of a letdown. I got an irelia skin and lulu skin, but 2 lux skins I won't use (I already have sailormoon), thresh(which I played like twice), and shyvana(have frost) is kinda sad
How can you all stick to one skin? Variety is the spice of life.
I can't really complain about what I was offered:
Arclight Vel'Koz (YES!!!!! - bought immediately) Harbinger Kassadin (YES - bought immediately) Xerath + Guardian of the Sands Xerath (will never own Xerath again after his rework, despite once having all his skins) Orianna + Sewn Chaos Orianna (don't care for her) Lux + Imperial Lux (I don't mind Lux when I've played her on free week. Considering it at 70% off) Leprechaun Veigar (don't really play him)
I can see why I got offered what I did. Was kinda hoping for Wildfire Zyra to complete my Zyra skins, but that's alright.
On December 17 2015 21:55 JazzVortical wrote: How can you all stick to one skin? Variety is the spice of life.
I can't really complain about what I was offered:
Arclight Vel'Koz (YES!!!!! - bought immediately) Harbinger Kassadin (YES - bought immediately) Xerath + Guardian of the Sands Xerath (will never own Xerath again after his rework, despite once having all his skins) Orianna + Sewn Chaos Orianna (don't care for her) Lux + Imperial Lux (I don't mind Lux when I've played her on free week. Considering it at 70% off) Leprechaun Veigar (don't really play him)
I can see why I got offered what I did. Was kinda hoping for Wildfire Zyra to complete my Zyra skins, but that's alright.
I rarely buy more than 1 skin for a champion unless I really like the champion and the skin.
Was offered: Marauder Ashe, already have Woad and Amethyst Heartseeker Varus, already have Arclight Arctic Ops Varus, see above Academy Darius, already have Woad King Commando Xin, already have Warring Kingdoms Desert Trooper Garen, don't like his skins and only have Dreadknight because it was free through Twitter.
I've literally never spent money on league of legends, but I'm considering it now. 70% all of pool party lee sin and renek, and arclight vayne... damn you rito
30% off BattleBoss Blitz, still too expensive. 50% off Sultan GP, skin is pretty meh. 60% off Order of the Banana Soraka, crappy skin 60% off Divine Soraka, okay skin, but soraka is perma-ban status. 70% off Piltover Customs Heimerdinger, actually decent buy 20% off Astronaut Teemo, still expensive as hell.
On December 19 2015 18:07 Slusher wrote: is it possible to not get crushed in lane with Trundle support in solo, or is this a lane swap for professionals only thing?
Definitely possible. Depends on the matchup though. If you are playing against a mage support you'll have a hard time.
If you made a chart of, on average, what gold levels / levels / item numbers a given champion hits whatever their biggest power spike is, if you could use that to predict what champions people will play based on how long the average game is and what peoples gold generation is for a given meta.
On December 19 2015 18:07 Slusher wrote: is it possible to not get crushed in lane with Trundle support in solo, or is this a lane swap for professionals only thing?
It definitely is possible. He isn't really that bad vs mage supports if your jungler has even a bit of a brain.
On December 19 2015 18:07 Slusher wrote: is it possible to not get crushed in lane with Trundle support in solo, or is this a lane swap for professionals only thing?
Lanes in soloq are very east to get out of unless your enemy plays a perfect game which is unheard of aside from the very, very top levels.
Question is, are soloq people going to follow your well placed pillars, or never follow it and then cry "fuck useless trundle support"
On December 20 2015 15:04 739 wrote: Lunar skins are meh, another Morgana skin, goddamn it. But I have to admit that Radiant Wukong looks really solid.
Edit : Anyone can recommend proper runes/masteries for jungle Wukong?
yea. If one more person says "worth" when one or two people die for nothing and we get dragon im going to lose it. Dragon is essentially a noob trap right now unless you are playing a champ that specifically wants to rush a 5 drag like Banner of command Nunu. Honestly I cant think of any other utility/support junglers that are good right now so thats pretty much it. Besides that you pretty much always want more gold/exp on your jungler especially in solo q
1st and 3rd dragon buff still super strong imo. Dragon might not be worth team fighting for, but it's still an objective worth picking up after a random team fight appears in bot lane.
It's too much of a pain in the ass to specify precisely what situations it's worth taking it, but first drag is still a butt ton of stats.
Rift herald is also super strong, would much rather trade that for dragon and get inner tower ezpz with it. BoC + Rift Herald gives you huge pushing power, would definitely recommend.
Far as utility junglers go... I guess Nautilus and Trundle might count? Not sure if Naut works in Jungle anymore though, he should but it's probably painfully slow (not that it wasn't before).
What isn't with Thunderlord's, though? I shitstomped a Zed with TP Renekton, feeding first blood due to a mistake, he stayed with a bit above half-HP to farm the wave, came back, and after a couple autos on the minions to build up fury straight-up killed him. He played better than me mechanically but it didn't matter because as soon as he'd press W he'd be zoned off the wave until it came back, E-aa-W-Q-aa-E would do over half his health and get me back inside the wave, and my ult would usually let me survive his (combined with empowered W for the stun duration to eat most of his ult's). I felt bad about it because I was clearly worse than him but with Precision and TDL I could faceroll without a thought.
Having at least 1 dragon at some point for free stats is nice, but the threat of 5 dragons is basically no longer relevant, especially in soloq where at my scrub level sometimes even when your team is winning by a ton and you're calling out timers ppl recall or farm a pushed wave and then the other team gets free dragons.
On December 22 2015 03:39 Alaric wrote: What isn't with Thunderlord's, though? I shitstomped a Zed with TP Renekton, feeding first blood due to a mistake, he stayed with a bit above half-HP to farm the wave, came back, and after a couple autos on the minions to build up fury straight-up killed him. He played better than me mechanically but it didn't matter because as soon as he'd press W he'd be zoned off the wave until it came back, E-aa-W-Q-aa-E would do over half his health and get me back inside the wave, and my ult would usually let me survive his (combined with empowered W for the stun duration to eat most of his ult's). I felt bad about it because I was clearly worse than him but with Precision and TDL I could faceroll without a thought.
renekton vs. a melee non-tank since the beginning of time, not thunder lords.
even if that was not the case you anecdote would still imply that he DIDN'T take thunder lords on Zed, which would make your "he was better than me" argument (hopefully) wrong.
On December 22 2015 03:39 Alaric wrote: What isn't with Thunderlord's, though? I shitstomped a Zed with TP Renekton, feeding first blood due to a mistake, he stayed with a bit above half-HP to farm the wave, came back, and after a couple autos on the minions to build up fury straight-up killed him. He played better than me mechanically but it didn't matter because as soon as he'd press W he'd be zoned off the wave until it came back, E-aa-W-Q-aa-E would do over half his health and get me back inside the wave, and my ult would usually let me survive his (combined with empowered W for the stun duration to eat most of his ult's). I felt bad about it because I was clearly worse than him but with Precision and TDL I could faceroll without a thought.
renekton vs. a melee non-tank since the beginning of time, not thunder lords.
even if that was not the case you anecdote would still imply that he DIDN'T take thunder lords on Zed, which would make your "he was better than me" argument (hopefully) wrong.
Oh he did. But because of the kit letting me go in and out while Zed can't, applying TDL was easier for me. Melee vs ranged match-ups have been pretty retarded for the same reason, the potential for harass of a Kennen or Nidalee is just so much stronger because of the additional damage from TDL that it gets really oppressive even as soon as level 1. Same reason people just die a lot faster bot too if you pick a squishy support since there's now two champs with the mastery.
Of course, we'll have to see what Precision reverts change to see how much TDL actually changes by itself.
are you guys liking the faster more snowbally games? As ADC main it seems a lot harder to win because in most games one of your solo lanes loses and then it just gets ridiculously hard to carry. Unless i get like 3+ kills in lane, there's no way you can carry vs. a fed solo laner. Even an unfed top laner is scary as fuck, and if they get any kills it seems like it's over.
Isn't it that with everyone taking the Cunning tree there's more damage in the game in general which plays against the squishies? Marksmen being squishy + sometimes immobile + sustained damage rather than burst sounds like a combo of odds against them more than solo laner in general being too strong. I don't mind every game not taking 40 minutes, but I'm glad that at my level they aren't all decided at 15 minutes like a lot of games on high Elo streams seem to be.
Having to relearn a lot of the damage/burst potential at level X or Y for most match-ups because of Precision and TDL so you don't die to all-ins or know when you can afford to dive/take a trade is a lot of work and pretty frustrating when it leads to you narrowly dying when you'd have lived before, but that's normal since masteries got changed and you've gotta learn it the same you learn a new champion. it's just a ton of work because it's most champions this time. Sometimes I feel stuff dies too easily though, especially bot lane with the double 18 Cunning, and I'd rather masteries provide utility in general than just straight-up damage (utility doesn't exclude damage, and stuff like executioner, double-edged sword or providing some dual pen for example is fine, but I'm not a fan of a tree simply piling on damage).
Depends on a lot of things. It also makes it easier to just kill the irelias and shit faster when they try to go on you.
The worst part is you have to be a fucking god to keep track of all those thunderlords in fights and often that extra burst is the difference between life and death.
I am really curious to see next patch if people will go back to warlords though. That 25% lifesteal at lvl 18 is crazy.
Even without rift herald, seems like games are mostly decided by the top/jungle matchup between the two teams. I'm guessing it's the new masteries but tops become raid boss mode very easily.
When has the average game not been decided by the jungler in soloq? The only time I can think of is at the start of s3 preseason when you could outlevel junglers as support regularly lol.
Personally I have no issues as support/ad player. In fact I definitely feel both roles are significantly stronger than last season.
On December 23 2015 08:06 nafta wrote: When has the average game not been decided by the jungler in soloq? The only time I can think of is at the start of s3 preseason when you could outlevel junglers as support regularly lol.
Personally I have no issues as support/ad player. In fact I definitely feel both roles are significantly stronger than last season.
ehh idk, I think that bot lane in general has been on a steady decline since S2. Each season it just gets harder.
it depends a lot on the game. If a top player is significantly better then the other one will get dumpstered and you will have to put a lot of resources into stopping them from just pushing down top lane. This is when it can feel like top lane is "deciding the game" and "op"
but if the top laner cant force a signifcant advantage (maybe jungler/top lane can 1v2 him easily) then top lane is way less valuable.
If it turns into a normal 5v5 fighting/baron dance game then bot lane is the lane that will usually decide the game.
mids job is really just supporting your bot and top lane at this rate, wave clearing is so easy. There are some outliers like zed and brand that can just completely dumpster mid or dumpste teamfights and take over a game
On December 23 2015 08:06 nafta wrote: When has the average game not been decided by the jungler in soloq? The only time I can think of is at the start of s3 preseason when you could outlevel junglers as support regularly lol.
Personally I have no issues as support/ad player. In fact I definitely feel both roles are significantly stronger than last season.
ehh idk, I think that bot lane in general has been on a steady decline since S2. Each season it just gets harder.
I honestly just think the game in general has slowly gotten harder to solo carry, maybe your perceived feelings towards bot are just how it is for any solo player in general.
On December 24 2015 01:31 VayneAuthority wrote: it depends a lot on the game. If a top player is significantly better then the other one will get dumpstered and you will have to put a lot of resources into stopping them from just pushing down top lane. This is when it can feel like top lane is "deciding the game" and "op"
but if the top laner cant force a signifcant advantage (maybe jungler/top lane can 1v2 him easily) then top lane is way less valuable.
If it turns into a normal 5v5 fighting/baron dance game then bot lane is the lane that will usually decide the game.
mids job is really just supporting your bot and top lane at this rate, wave clearing is so easy. There are some outliers like zed and brand that can just completely dumpster mid or dumpste teamfights and take over a game
Well bot lane is the only lane that can farm and roam at the same time so obviously it is the most efficient to get going. Not a coincidence 5man fiestas still happen all the time.
Nah zed is useless. He is only good if you are last pick and can see the enemy picks have nothing to handle you. Just pick lulu and take a big fat dump on him. There are too much cancer picks that are banned over her should be able to take her almost every game. As support just pick janna/nami/etc with exhaust and make him irrelevant. Champ is so fucking useless it makes me sad when people pick him on my team.
It depends more on the picks who has more influence. Overall it feels like you have less influence because before people were much worse at the game and jungle+support were basically walking wards in s2. Those 2 roles have gotten stronger with every season in le solo. Just compare support gold gain now to last season lol. Or how junglers can outlevel laners very easily if you pick champs with fast clear like shyvana.
On December 24 2015 03:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea the game used to be heavily favored towards "best player wins the game for his team, easily"
Its now dangerously close to being "worst player loses the game for his team, easily"
They have almost completely tilted the scale the other way but its not quite there yet.
I agree I would say right now more games are decided by which team has the weakest link rather then the strongest compared to last season. It's prolly about 50/50 spilt where normally unless a player is full blown trolling if his 4 teammates are all doing better then the enemy team they should be able to win.but this season if a lane feeds really hard the game can end so quickly off it.
Its not even really about game length and snowbally-ness. In many ways S3 was much more snowbally, and you would sometimes get 15 minute inhibs (which was much worse than a 15 min inhib now) even without "open mid". Its about who, or what causes the snowball. Which, by the way, all perception and it may be true that the Fakers and Wildturtles are winning on smurfs at exactly the same rate. But it does feel that games are decided less often by the player who is putting in an A+ effort than the one putting in a D or F.
Then again, it might just be preseason experimentation, and you have a lot more players playing "first time Azir" than normally.
On December 24 2015 07:52 cLutZ wrote: Its not even really about game length and snowbally-ness. In many ways S3 was much more snowbally, and you would sometimes get 15 minute inhibs (which was much worse than a 15 min inhib now) even without "open mid". Its about who, or what causes the snowball. Which, by the way, all perception and it may be true that the Fakers and Wildturtles are winning on smurfs at exactly the same rate. But it does feel that games are decided less often by the player who is putting in an A+ effort than the one putting in a D or F.
Then again, it might just be preseason experimentation, and you have a lot more players playing "first time Azir" than normally.
I don't ever recall losing/winning a ranked game pre 20 minutes for season 3,4 or 5. But it's already happened 3 times to me in pre-season. Personally I think preseason is pretty fun. Probably the most fun I've had with the game since season early season 2/late season 1. IMO they just need to tune a couple more things, and s6 is looking pretty good.
As far as tuning goes As a jungler I'm pretty happy with the jungle right now while there are certain junglers clearly in the top tier I feel I can pick things that work based on team comp rather then O shit Elise is open I got to pick her. But for lanes I feel like 2 or 3 champs are crowding out everyone else which isn't anythng new but usually the jungle postion is where riot is looking for "better diversity"
On December 23 2015 08:06 nafta wrote: When has the average game not been decided by the jungler in soloq? The only time I can think of is at the start of s3 preseason when you could outlevel junglers as support regularly lol.
Personally I have no issues as support/ad player. In fact I definitely feel both roles are significantly stronger than last season.
ehh idk, I think that bot lane in general has been on a steady decline since S2. Each season it just gets harder.
I honestly just think the game in general has slowly gotten harder to solo carry, maybe your perceived feelings towards bot are just how it is for any solo player in general.
Maybe. i got 2 accounts to diamond in S4 and peaked at D2, then I stopped playing for a good ~9 months or so, and I came back mid S5 and I've been stuck in mid plat for like 600+ games. i dont think i got that much worse after a break...
[6:21:01 PM] Kwanghee Woo: Apparently rain is diamond 2 in korea [6:21:08 PM] Kwanghee Woo: And plays top malphite [6:21:18 PM] Kwanghee Woo: Flash is similar, plays jungle eve
On December 24 2015 03:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea the game used to be heavily favored towards "best player wins the game for his team, easily"
Its now dangerously close to being "worst player loses the game for his team, easily"
They have almost completely tilted the scale the other way but its not quite there yet.
thats what people said in s3,4 and 5. just search for reddit threads in the past years. its actually the opposite right now. the best player are snowballing so hard that games are lost before 20 minutes before you have the chance to group for a 5v5. its not like last few seasons where laning is irrelevant and the games went so far into late game that your worst player´s positioning loses you the game by getting caught. that complain just sounds like people crying over elo hell. its your perspetcive that the worst player loses you the game because YOU are on the losing team. lol
On December 25 2015 08:26 Harem wrote: As a random side note:
[6:21:01 PM] Kwanghee Woo: Apparently rain is diamond 2 in korea [6:21:08 PM] Kwanghee Woo: And plays top malphite [6:21:18 PM] Kwanghee Woo: Flash is similar, plays jungle eve
My body is ready. If KR still had sister teams...man...
On December 24 2015 03:31 VayneAuthority wrote: yea the game used to be heavily favored towards "best player wins the game for his team, easily"
Its now dangerously close to being "worst player loses the game for his team, easily"
They have almost completely tilted the scale the other way but its not quite there yet.
Based on the games i've played in preseason. i have to agree with this. It feels really hard to carry games with bad teammates unless you can bully the other team into surrendering early
On December 26 2015 22:47 JimmiC wrote: I think unless your at a win rate of about 65% those "bad" teammates are about as good as you. That is why your in the same elo. So intead of blaming them or riot if you actually want to improve look at what you can do better in your own play. If you are always winning lane And losing after then you are doing something wrong with your advantage or you are barely winning lane.
I always laugh my ass off when a teammate starts flaming another teammate going "You f*cking suck, etc.etc.etc", and I'm just like "you know we're all around the same ELO right?"l
On December 26 2015 22:47 JimmiC wrote: I think unless your at a win rate of about 65% those "bad" teammates are about as good as you. That is why your in the same elo. So intead of blaming them or riot if you actually want to improve look at what you can do better in your own play. If you are always winning lane And losing after then you are doing something wrong with your advantage or you are barely winning lane.
I always laugh my ass off when a teammate starts flaming another teammate going "You f*cking suck, etc.etc.etc", and I'm just like "you know we're all around the same ELO right?"l
Skill levels at the same ELO vary wildly. I agree with the sentiment that not having the worst player is more important than having the best player on your team.
Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
On December 27 2015 05:03 Mensol wrote: Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
Not sure why FMallet is part of that build, it's pretty easy to get enough stacks on your meeps that your first few auto's are slows. IMO RFC sounds better, the increased range will allow you to get your initial slow so you can catch up to bind.
On December 26 2015 22:47 JimmiC wrote: I think unless your at a win rate of about 65% those "bad" teammates are about as good as you. That is why your in the same elo. So intead of blaming them or riot if you actually want to improve look at what you can do better in your own play. If you are always winning lane And losing after then you are doing something wrong with your advantage or you are barely winning lane.
I'd probably agree with this if it wasn't likely false in my case. been playing on multiple accounts, each getting matched up at different MMRs, my winrate goes up as the MMR goes up for the accounts.
Specifically this is because 1. I am a very carriable ally, i dedicate myself to protect the carry when needed. 2. The % of games where someone is just vastly out of their depth for one reason or another (everything from boosted player falling back to where they belong, to not playing in a long time, to playing a role they can't handle) goes down a lot as you pull to to top of plat and low diamond. and 3. People tend to be a hell of a lot saltier at plat 1 diamond 5 level, so they are easier to tilt into a surrender when you are doing very well.
On December 27 2015 04:23 JimmiC wrote: In what way do skill levels vary greatly? After a certain amount of games everyone is about where they should be. If a guys mechanics are not as good then his team play or decision making is making up for it. Overall skill level is about the same at each given elo, now could some one be having a really good game or a really bad game yes.
To answer this, specifically about NA, the higher in MMR you go, the lower the population is so the higher the spread of MMRs exist in games. This can just sometimes screw your team, or theirs. For instance, Scarra the other day got matched up with a plat 1 account that had 1k games played. That's obviously the extreme and very unlikely, but even half that spread is common throughout plat and diamond.
On December 26 2015 22:47 JimmiC wrote: I think unless your at a win rate of about 65% those "bad" teammates are about as good as you. That is why your in the same elo. So intead of blaming them or riot if you actually want to improve look at what you can do better in your own play. If you are always winning lane And losing after then you are doing something wrong with your advantage or you are barely winning lane.
I'd probably agree with this if it wasn't likely false in my case. been playing on multiple accounts, each getting matched up at different MMRs, my winrate goes up as the MMR goes up for the accounts.
Specifically this is because 1. I am a very carriable ally, i dedicate myself to protect the carry when needed. 2. The % of games where someone is just vastly out of their depth for one reason or another (everything from boosted player falling back to where they belong, to not playing in a long time, to playing a role they can't handle) goes down a lot as you pull to to top of plat and low diamond. and 3. People tend to be a hell of a lot saltier at plat 1 diamond 5 level, so they are easier to tilt into a surrender when you are doing very well.
On December 27 2015 04:23 JimmiC wrote: In what way do skill levels vary greatly? After a certain amount of games everyone is about where they should be. If a guys mechanics are not as good then his team play or decision making is making up for it. Overall skill level is about the same at each given elo, now could some one be having a really good game or a really bad game yes.
To answer this, specifically about NA, the higher in MMR you go, the lower the population is so the higher the spread of MMRs exist in games. This can just sometimes screw your team, or theirs. For instance, Scarra the other day got matched up with a plat 1 account that had 1k games played. That's obviously the extreme and very unlikely, but even half that spread is common throughout plat and diamond.
That Scarra anecdote is pretty darn rare occurrence, that only happens occasionally to .01% of the playerbase.
Which is what i said. But if you play around P1 D5 you'll have 1 in 10 games with low plat/ G1 and 1/10 games with mid-high Diamond. Those are just estimates from what i've played this season on that account. my Gold MMR account i get matched up with S1 to PLat 3 players. The population isn't huge on NA, which leads to this kind of variance.
On December 27 2015 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: Which is what i said. But if you play around P1 D5 you'll have 1 in 10 games with low plat/ G1 and 1/10 games with mid-high Diamond. Those are just estimates from what i've played this season on that account. my Gold MMR account i get matched up with S1 to PLat 3 players. The population isn't huge on NA, which leads to this kind of variance.
Even when I was Gold 3 getting matched with P1 players, the extreme difference in division =/= extreme difference in ELO. These big division difference between gold and plat, can easily be explained by the rubberbanding variance of the volatile play of gold players, where they tend to hit hot streaks that inflate their ELO temporarily (like 10 game winstreaks).
On December 27 2015 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: Which is what i said. But if you play around P1 D5 you'll have 1 in 10 games with low plat/ G1 and 1/10 games with mid-high Diamond. Those are just estimates from what i've played this season on that account. my Gold MMR account i get matched up with S1 to PLat 3 players. The population isn't huge on NA, which leads to this kind of variance.
Even when I was Gold 3 getting matched with P1 players, the extreme difference in division =/= extreme difference in ELO. These big division difference between gold and plat, can easily be explained by the rubberbanding variance of the volatile play of gold players, where they tend to hit hot streaks that inflate their ELO temporarily (like 10 game winstreaks).
Sorry I'm discussing MMR as a reflection of Skill. Which it's varying you exactly describe. and the variance of skill within a match is the topic we're even discussing in the first place.
On December 27 2015 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: Which is what i said. But if you play around P1 D5 you'll have 1 in 10 games with low plat/ G1 and 1/10 games with mid-high Diamond. Those are just estimates from what i've played this season on that account. my Gold MMR account i get matched up with S1 to PLat 3 players. The population isn't huge on NA, which leads to this kind of variance.
Even when I was Gold 3 getting matched with P1 players, the extreme difference in division =/= extreme difference in ELO. These big division difference between gold and plat, can easily be explained by the rubberbanding variance of the volatile play of gold players, where they tend to hit hot streaks that inflate their ELO temporarily (like 10 game winstreaks).
Sorry I'm discussing MMR as a reflection of Skill. Which it's varying you exactly describe. and the variance of skill within a match is the topic we're even discussing in the first place.
While I wouldn't say ELO is a direct correlation with skill, but it's close enough that fluxes of ELO falls within a confidence range of skill. (Assuming enough datapoints exist to make an accurate representation)
On December 27 2015 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: Which is what i said. But if you play around P1 D5 you'll have 1 in 10 games with low plat/ G1 and 1/10 games with mid-high Diamond. Those are just estimates from what i've played this season on that account. my Gold MMR account i get matched up with S1 to PLat 3 players. The population isn't huge on NA, which leads to this kind of variance.
Even when I was Gold 3 getting matched with P1 players, the extreme difference in division =/= extreme difference in ELO. These big division difference between gold and plat, can easily be explained by the rubberbanding variance of the volatile play of gold players, where they tend to hit hot streaks that inflate their ELO temporarily (like 10 game winstreaks).
Sorry I'm discussing MMR as a reflection of Skill. Which it's varying you exactly describe. and the variance of skill within a match is the topic we're even discussing in the first place.
While I wouldn't say ELO is a direct correlation with skill, but it's close enough that fluxes of ELO falls within a confidence range of skill. (Assuming enough datapoints exist to make an accurate representation)
If a single player could win a game like they can lose them, this might even be reasonable.
On December 27 2015 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: Which is what i said. But if you play around P1 D5 you'll have 1 in 10 games with low plat/ G1 and 1/10 games with mid-high Diamond. Those are just estimates from what i've played this season on that account. my Gold MMR account i get matched up with S1 to PLat 3 players. The population isn't huge on NA, which leads to this kind of variance.
Even when I was Gold 3 getting matched with P1 players, the extreme difference in division =/= extreme difference in ELO. These big division difference between gold and plat, can easily be explained by the rubberbanding variance of the volatile play of gold players, where they tend to hit hot streaks that inflate their ELO temporarily (like 10 game winstreaks).
Sorry I'm discussing MMR as a reflection of Skill. Which it's varying you exactly describe. and the variance of skill within a match is the topic we're even discussing in the first place.
While I wouldn't say ELO is a direct correlation with skill, but it's close enough that fluxes of ELO falls within a confidence range of skill. (Assuming enough datapoints exist to make an accurate representation)
If a single player could win a game like they can lose them, this might even be reasonable.
Pretty sure the 99% winrate of Faker and Rush when they climb ladder is pretty evident that this can be the case.
On December 27 2015 06:28 wei2coolman wrote: Pretty sure the 99% winrate of Faker and Rush when they climb ladder is pretty evident that this can be the case.
I mean, do you have proof of that? because the plat 1 account faker was given for worlds had < 90% winrate until masters, while he was duo queuing the whole way. 2 of the best players in the world duo queuing still lost ~10% of their games. beyond that, this patch is more steps toward babysit the bad player and further away from season 3's: support the good player.
On December 27 2015 06:28 JimmiC wrote: My point is people all think they are the special snowflake and whatever only happens to them. But in your example that same ting happens to everyone in those levels and some rise above it and luck is not the reason. So if you are not rising, or whatever level you are in is where you should be.
I mean thats just the definition of the system, not how the game is balanced with reference to player skill.
I'm saying I feel that the game also rides more on the worst player than the best, and used my example of my winrates increasing as the minimum player skill increased in my games.
On December 27 2015 04:23 JimmiC wrote: In what way do skill levels vary greatly? After a certain amount of games everyone is about where they should be. If a guys mechanics are not as good then his team play or decision making is making up for it. Overall skill level is about the same at each given elo, now could some one be having a really good game or a really bad game yes.
when will people understand that rank is measure of progress not skill
On December 27 2015 05:03 Mensol wrote: Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
Not sure why FMallet is part of that build, it's pretty easy to get enough stacks on your meeps that your first few auto's are slows. IMO RFC sounds better, the increased range will allow you to get your initial slow so you can catch up to bind.
Well Frozen Mallet adds damage+hp plus extra slow, which is good when you play against junglers like Rengar. Getting hp is important because you die so fast without durability.
Once you hit stun, its impossible to run away from you with Frozen Mallet as well.
On December 27 2015 05:03 Mensol wrote: Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
Not sure why FMallet is part of that build, it's pretty easy to get enough stacks on your meeps that your first few auto's are slows. IMO RFC sounds better, the increased range will allow you to get your initial slow so you can catch up to bind.
Well Frozen Mallet adds damage+hp plus extra slow, which is good when you play against junglers like Rengar. Getting hp is important because you die so fast without durability.
Once you hit stun, its impossible to run away from you with Frozen Mallet as well.
It's also the 2nd highest HP item in the game right?. excluding Cinderhulk when Hp stacking a ton.
Since games snowball so hard it makes picks matter a lot more so people mistake it with the worst player mattering more than the good player.
The current system for le solo just can't be accurate. Truth is unless you can consistently 1v9 you have to play enough games and wait to get lucky in order to climb.
On December 27 2015 05:03 Mensol wrote: Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
Not sure why FMallet is part of that build, it's pretty easy to get enough stacks on your meeps that your first few auto's are slows. IMO RFC sounds better, the increased range will allow you to get your initial slow so you can catch up to bind.
Well Frozen Mallet adds damage+hp plus extra slow, which is good when you play against junglers like Rengar. Getting hp is important because you die so fast without durability.
Once you hit stun, its impossible to run away from you with Frozen Mallet as well.
Exactly, with the direction that League is taking, which is more teamwork and less individual play, I feel like as long as I'm within a certain range from my level the outcome of 90% of my games will be the same. What I mean with that is that when I play at D5 MMR, in 90% of the games it doesn't matter how I play, as long as I'm within the P3-D2 range the outcome will be the same. So basically I feel like I can only influence about 10% of my games with my own personal League ability.
When I analyze my own replays I think that I play better than most of my teammates usually, so I might be a bit better than D5 (might also be personal bias). Unfortunately I just don't have the time and willpower to spam soloq for 200-300 games, so I feel like playing ranked is pretty pointless.
Of course when you're the best player in the world there's only about 20% of the games left that you cannot influence, but that number still seems really high. (that sentence was weird)
On December 27 2015 05:03 Mensol wrote: Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
Not sure why FMallet is part of that build, it's pretty easy to get enough stacks on your meeps that your first few auto's are slows. IMO RFC sounds better, the increased range will allow you to get your initial slow so you can catch up to bind.
Well Frozen Mallet adds damage+hp plus extra slow, which is good when you play against junglers like Rengar. Getting hp is important because you die so fast without durability.
Once you hit stun, its impossible to run away from you with Frozen Mallet as well.
What about devourer? Does it double proc Meeps?
uh actually im making Warrior instead Devourer so idk the answer.
On December 27 2015 05:03 Mensol wrote: Has anyone been played Bard jungle before? ive been playing ad bard these days with 12 mr, 14 as, 7.7 phys d. and 9 armor, and 12-18 masteries.
You get full clear without struggle, and ganking is extremely fun. You appear like surprise motherfucker from nowhere. You can set up ganks with your ult as well. My item build is usually warrior+botrk+frozen mallet and armor/mr item depending on opponents team. if we go super late then i go trinity force. You hit like a truck in late game. Another thing is that collecting chimes isnt a problem because you roam all game long.
Not sure why FMallet is part of that build, it's pretty easy to get enough stacks on your meeps that your first few auto's are slows. IMO RFC sounds better, the increased range will allow you to get your initial slow so you can catch up to bind.
Well Frozen Mallet adds damage+hp plus extra slow, which is good when you play against junglers like Rengar. Getting hp is important because you die so fast without durability.
Once you hit stun, its impossible to run away from you with Frozen Mallet as well.
It's also the 2nd highest HP item in the game right?. excluding Cinderhulk when Hp stacking a ton.
On December 27 2015 08:00 Fildun wrote: Exactly, with the direction that League is taking, which is more teamwork and less individual play, I feel like as long as I'm within a certain range from my level the outcome of 90% of my games will be the same. What I mean with that is that when I play at D5 MMR, in 90% of the games it doesn't matter how I play, as long as I'm within the P3-D2 range the outcome will be the same. So basically I feel like I can only influence about 10% of my games with my own personal League ability.
When I analyze my own replays I think that I play better than most of my teammates usually, so I might be a bit better than D5 (might also be personal bias). Unfortunately I just don't have the time and willpower to spam soloq for 200-300 games, so I feel like playing ranked is pretty pointless.
Of course when you're the best player in the world there's only about 20% of the games left that you cannot influence, but that number still seems really high. (that sentence was weird)
Piggybacking off this, it seems like Riot is really trying to make League a more social game. Adding friends on FB, being able to queue in various stacks, etc.
Tried play illaoi as support; feelz bad man. Pretty useless unless you land your E every time. I got lucky and landed 2 early E's in lane, was able to pressure lane pretty hard, but after that. Enemy ADC played a lot safer, and eventually I became pretty useless in lane. I feel like there needs to be some pretty big buffs towards her E, the range isn't that great, hard to land, and early levels has insanely long cooldown.
Her E is maxed 2nd anyway, which isn't too big of an issue in a solo lane (plus you're going to build CDR, since most of her damage comes from tentacles CDR and ArPen are her offensive stats).
The "issue" I have with E is how slow the animation is. Maybe you can cancel the winddown though, I haven't thoroughly tried how they interact. It's really easy to not have a spell go off if you try to cast them too fast though because E and R have big winddown, Q isn't very "snappy' so you apparrently can't chain it.
Also most importantly you can't "queue" tentacle attacks. If you tag someone with E, they'll swing once. You must wait until the animation is over before you W (the enemy or his spirit) otherwise you'll miss an attack. Same with swings coming from a tested person (if you get a good E -> ult, the spirit will die super fast and the newly spawned tentacles will swing at the target).
I'm not sure whether the tentacles swing once or not after her ult though. It tends to get pretty hectic because you ult when people are starting the fight anyway, and if you're in position for a good ult you're in position to get focused. Also, contrary to Heimerdinger's turrets, the tentacles don't swing at all once you're dead (and I think your death cancels the swings about to start, for example if you land a W and die immediatly), so it doesn't matter how much damage you build if you can't live at least ~4 seconds.
On December 28 2015 01:21 Alaric wrote: Her E is maxed 2nd anyway, which isn't too big of an issue in a solo lane (plus you're going to build CDR, since most of her damage comes from tentacles CDR and ArPen are her offensive stats).
The "issue" I have with E is how slow the animation is. Maybe you can cancel the winddown though, I haven't thoroughly tried how they interact. It's really easy to not have a spell go off if you try to cast them too fast though because E and R have big winddown, Q isn't very "snappy' so you apparrently can't chain it.
Also most importantly you can't "queue" tentacle attacks. If you tag someone with E, they'll swing once. You must wait until the animation is over before you W (the enemy or his spirit) otherwise you'll miss an attack. Same with swings coming from a tested person (if you get a good E -> ult, the spirit will die super fast and the newly spawned tentacles will swing at the target).
I'm not sure whether the tentacles swing once or not after her ult though. It tends to get pretty hectic because you ult when people are starting the fight anyway, and if you're in position for a good ult you're in position to get focused. Also, contrary to Heimerdinger's turrets, the tentacles don't swing at all once you're dead (and I think your death cancels the swings about to start, for example if you land a W and die immediatly), so it doesn't matter how much damage you build if you can't live at least ~4 seconds.
The E animation windup is way too telegraphed imo, and the W animation wind-up is so long, that the increased range is pretty pointless, and doesn't work that great as an Auto Attack animation cancel.
The other thing with W is that the buff (the part that gives you range and makes the tentacles attack the target) is consumed when the animation starts. So if you get displaced (charm or Alistar for example), if your target dies mid-flight, if it walks out of range, becomes untargetable (stealth or Fizz/etc.), the attack will not land, and you won't be able to attack again, making you lose the tentacle swings. Since almost all of your damage comes from it, you can get fucked pretty hard if this happens in a teamfight without your ult to reduce the cd.
It also means you get cut from your damage is you get rooted during a fight/trade. Ryze is braindead levels of easy for him for example, because even if you grab his spirit, he just walks up to you (doesn't care if he lines up with said spirit for double-Q), presses W then does the rest of the combo and even if he's right next to you you can't auto him, because no matter the range W is considered a dash. If he gets the perma-root then you press Q once then your contribution is over (Rune Prison has more range than Illaoi's ult so she can't try it that way either).
I really don't understand the mastery ratings. Game before last I played Zyra support, I was bad and lost lane, had a mediocre KDA (2ish), I got carried hard by top & jungle and the rating was S. Game after that I played Rammus jungle, snowballed mid and top, went godlike and had an insane KDA (30ish), warded a lot with Tracker's knife, won every teamfight, got A-
interesting that the windspeaker's blessing supports (sona>janna>nami) have the highest winrates. Probably because only support mains play them and people that "have to" support tend to pick more "carry" champions like Bard/Brand/Blitz.
I would guess Nami is like 50/50 wind speaker/thunderlord.
another hidden stat there is all 3 of those supports want to auto the shit out of you at low levels so precision being overpowered at the moment is exaggerated on them. (Nami who does mixed when she Blesses herself benefits a lot from this mastery for example)
not to mention the large gap in adc effectiveness when you have a champ that is dedicated to making you strong. an adc by itself with like a blitz or thresh or whatever is pretty weak but these champs tend to snowball lanes and make their carries fed through kills. If they dont snowball you are left with a pretty weak adc most of the time.
on the other hand, just by nature of having something like vayne/janna or ltristana/nami is a ticking timebomb just by having those champs there
this is usually accentuated when adcs are weaker, and besides some outliers i would say they are slightly weak atm but the problem is some abusers like lucian/ezreal/vayne exist and to a lesser extent corki so it makes it look like adc is fine right now. the new last whisper is really fucked up so caster adcs and true dmg is all that works
I just think its easier to play Janna style than thresh style in soloQ. Good hooks need vision and your team might go in unevenly. Thats why if you are engaging, you want to be a Malphite, Amumu, etc type so your whole team knows whats going on, and they come in with you. Also, with Blitz, his hook is amazing, just he sucks for most of the game so if you face competent lane opponents hooking the ADC just gets him into range to kill you at some point.
On December 29 2015 03:38 Slusher wrote: I would guess Nami is like 50/50 wind speaker/thunderlord.
another hidden stat there is all 3 of those supports want to auto the shit out of you at low levels so precision being overpowered at the moment is exaggerated on them. (Nami who does mixed when she Blesses herself benefits a lot from this mastery for example)
There's definitely a case for both on Nami. She's really good at trades early on. Go in, heal herself, and damage the enemy. Add Thunderlords into that mix and it gets quite tasty.
On December 29 2015 05:01 cLutZ wrote: I just think its easier to play Janna style than thresh style in soloQ. Good hooks need vision and your team might go in unevenly. Thats why if you are engaging, you want to be a Malphite, Amumu, etc type so your whole team knows whats going on, and they come in with you. Also, with Blitz, his hook is amazing, just he sucks for most of the game so if you face competent lane opponents hooking the ADC just gets him into range to kill you at some point.
Not only in soloq. Being reactive rather than proactive is much easier in general.
To be honest I think it's just because SoloQ games are decided by teamfights in like 90% of the cases. where champions like Janna are waaaay stronger than the so called carry supports.
On December 29 2015 17:14 Jek wrote: To be honest I think it's just because SoloQ games are decided by teamfights in like 90% of the cases. where champions like Janna are waaaay stronger than the so called carry supports.
Janna soraka and tahm all fit into the "anti playmaking" support. and that role is very effective in solo queue. They straight up can shut down someone who is playing well and keep them from getting a kill/pick. They make the worst on their team better, by being able to save from from their own failure. something you have a difficult time doing on blitz, and even thresh since you rely on the ally clicking a lantern which often times players playing badly miss doing.
On December 31 2015 15:24 Slusher wrote: I crumble under the mental pressure of seeing Nasus farm stacks and tank a tower shot every time.
I have played a lot of nasus earier on in the preseason and honestly, with all sustain in the defense tree there's really only a couple select champs that can deny stacks on their own. Most of the time I only had to give up ~15 creeps and just grind out stacks until I hit 100-150 and then go to town on them whenever they get near a creep. Most of them don't realize you can actually kill them and play very overextended.
The easiest way to shut down a nasus is just tower camping him with your jungler. Build up a wave, push it in and dive his ass. Repeat that 3 times and the game is over for him. Although that's easier said than done and I had a couple of games they failed the dive in and gave me a double.
Part of why I stopped playing him is that he has no redeeming factor to really carry your team if the enemy has a good draft. Champs like brand, lulu or janna make you 100% useless as anything else than a damage sponge. He's a really good counterpick though, if you happen to be last pick top or something.
Anyone with Graves tips to spare? In general, but I guess laning would be a good start. I'm doing garbage with him since the changes, even in lane where I used to be somewhat decent.
Do you just farm normally or have patterns, for example focus the minions on the edges so they always die first and you don't have to deal with a focused minion behind a full health one?
Do you walk up to the enemy to try and auto them, use E to get in range rather than partially reload, wait for an initiation from your support and keep your distance otherwise?
I also find the ult annoying because the knock-back means you can't use it at the start of the teamfight to help burst people down, and in trades if you ever misread your damage you can't auto, or Flash-auto, to finish people off when they survive it with 50 HP. Do you time your abilities so you cast them during your reloading, or do you use them normally and run to the enemy during the reload?
That short range makes it so annoying to respond to harass or to try and posture aggressively. Do you depend on your support to make shit happen for you?
I've tried playing him lately and... I'm with qtpie. He is just so bad after laning phase that it doesn't matter how well you do in lane. Lane you can get through easy with just instaclear or allins with the right supp but the fact that you got short range and can't shoot through people makes him garbage in late. It's like every minion, jungle creep and enemy tanks are yasuo wind walls. Not worth the pick.
Do you guys think he's good if you revert the nerfs? I feel like his problems are unrelated, which is funny in hindsight. I think he was really only considered bonkers because of how op warlords worked with his kit.
You can't balance morde he is either broken or garbage
Dunno graves might not be a top tier pick but as I have said like 10 times in threads like this already just watch replays of a guy called "jungle graves" on euw if you wanna see how to win games as him
But doesn't he play Graves in the jungle? He used to be my go-to pick for playing AD and he has almost nothing to do with how he was before, so I'm not interested in playing him jungle either, I've got picks for that.
Well he just kinda sucks at laning bot. When a champion gets changed this much you just move on to playing him the better way. Personally thought he was shit at ad even before the nerfs but a lot of people just lack the common sense to abuse his range properly so they thought he was op.
On January 03 2016 07:21 Alaric wrote: But doesn't he play Graves in the jungle? He used to be my go-to pick for playing AD and he has almost nothing to do with how he was before, so I'm not interested in playing him jungle either, I've got picks for that.
I think you just gotta find a new ADC for your go-to pick man. He isn't really like what he was before so it's gonna be learning a new champ either way, might as well pick a good one (for botlane).
On January 03 2016 07:40 nafta wrote: Well he just kinda sucks at laning bot. When a champion gets changed this much you just move on to playing him the better way. Personally thought he was shit at ad even before the nerfs but a lot of people just lack the common sense to abuse his range properly so they thought he was op.
I mean adc had a stupid smount of sustain on the patch he was "op". I agree he was highly over valued but i don't know if pushing him out of lane with old q cost + launch warlords was all yhat easy unless you cheesed him with like Draven + nami (which people started doing)
In any case i think the 40% cdr + 50%+ crit lategame staxking armor with you e and healing every crit was what made him strong at lesst when i played him, so i still dtandby being the best lategame warlords abuser from adc role being the issue.
That said i agree with above poster Lucian is a lot closer to old graves than graves is not sure why you feel attached to him.
That's the thing though, I dunno what would suit my laning ways better. I could stay on Ashe but something without mobility is suicidal with my level of stutter-stepping and mechanics in general, and I dislike Lucian on principle (since because he's "the guy who casts spells" he's the reason Graves was left in the dust and changed so many times, and in the end reworked, but he doesn't have the same feel at all when you play).
What I liked about Graves was the burst, and the way you can turn on people if you've got enough farm, so as long as I didn't farm like shit and my support made some space for me, I could play around my cooldowns, which is something I'm more used to do. And post-6 if you're already ahead you can, if not kill people, at least be unopposed because of the risk you just 100-0 someone. What I meant about the "feel" is that Q and R had a very "visceral" feel when you cast them, with satisfying sounds and the burst of damage and all (bit like Mundo cleavers or Pantheon's Q), Lucian's animations don't do that at all to me (on top of disliking him anyway), but I'm not sure there's any marksman who foots that bill anymore. Maybe Corki? But I'm really bad at him, from whenever I tried to play him.
Maybe I'll move to Caitlyn. She does better damage now so even if I don't win the laning phase I won't be as much of a dead weight.
Mf was a lot more difficult to handle in lane actually because her double up procd warlord if you kill the first target. Well with thunderlords+precision you actually do a lot of dmg and can straight up one shot people which before you couldn't really do at all. Atk speed is kinda useless on him too.
There is this champion called miss fortune she is pretty good and very easy to play. You could just play corki/tristana if you need an escape so much.
On January 03 2016 07:59 Alaric wrote: That's the thing though, I dunno what would suit my laning ways better. I could stay on Ashe but something without mobility is suicidal with my level of stutter-stepping and mechanics in general, and I dislike Lucian on principle (since because he's "the guy who casts spells" he's the reason Graves was left in the dust and changed so many times, and in the end reworked, but he doesn't have the same feel at all when you play). Maybe I'll move to Caitlyn. She does better damage now so even if I don't win the laning phase I won't be as much of a dead weight.
Tristana is pretty easy to play, works a bit like graves with the ult and as long as you don't suicide jump you're always doing something on her. MF is pretty broken ATM, her ult and Q deal retarded amounts of damage. Caitlyn seems like a good pick right now as well, can't really go that wrong with her.
I disliked Tristana because she's all autos in lane, and her range get impactful till level 10 or so. It feels a bit like playing, say, laning against an oppressive anti-melee (for example Swain or Nidalee) as Wukong or as Olaf. Olaf has Q so you can still farm, apply some damage then call for a gank, etc. while Wukong has to get close and gets punished (not all that true since he hurts, but I mean in terms of kits and "reach").
With Tristana I couldn't deal with people walking and harassing me when I last hit 'cause they have the lead if I try and trade back, and if I E them they can walk back usually. It also relies on autos a lot more. With Graves, Ezreal, Sivir, etc. I could retaliate with auto+spell to make up for the health lost, or I could use the spells outranging my autos to harass/posture aggressively.
Sure with Caitlyn I'll still rely mostly on my autos later in the game, but having a long range and her Q to smooth the laning phase and better deal with people aggro-ing me, getting a health lead and then pressuring me till the next recall, does a lot. Otherwise I just played Ashe because long range, Volley gets on a decent cd quickly enough, and even if I got shat on I could provide some utility. Can't pick that with Rengar open though.
Cait still has the same weakness she's always had; her midgame is shit. Until you get IE/zeal item you're completely useless, and even then, if the enemy has any kind of armor your autos are gonna do 0 damage. The only adc's i think are good atm are lucian, mf and trist.
Urgots in a really good spot right now. but he's one of the more unusual champs in the role so he's difficult to adjust to and uses a different skillset. Though Alaric i think you play Urgots style well from all your time as a mid laner. Though you can't go wrong just playing Kindred instead.
Wondering what people's take on patch cycles is. We touched on it for a couple of posts earlier in this thread, but today I saw Scarra tweeting that he was surprised by the lack of patches in recent weeks. Like I get the game has a glaring problem with masteries at the moment but because it's universal it doesn't really bother me much and I kinda like the game on this patch idk I just really don't like the bi-weekly patching and I'm surprised to see multiple people bring it up as a sore point that it took a break.
To be honest I feel like the current patch schedule borders on being discouraging towards learning new champions. This is exasterbated by the fact that Riot has a tendency to be really inconsistent with what they feel out and what the get the fuck out of the game as fast as possible. An example for me personally is Azir, I actively chose not to learn this hero because I thought it was to complex and would get nerfed really quickly, but then he ended up being op for like 9 months. Meanwhile stuff like Graves or Sejuani was "op" for like 1 patch and they dished out nerfs. I'm not even demanding consistency because I think at certain points that isn't all that possible, but I feel like with Bi weekly patching I definitely consider if I want to learn a new "op" before I invest any time into it, and I don't think that is positive.
On January 04 2016 13:06 Slusher wrote: Wondering what people's take on patch cycles is. We touched on it for a couple of posts earlier in this thread, but today I saw Scarra tweeting that he was surprised by the lack of patches in recent weeks. Like I get the game has a glaring problem with masteries at the moment but because it's universal it doesn't really bother me much and I kinda like the game on this patch idk I just really don't like the bi-weekly patching and I'm surprised to see multiple people bring it up as a sore point that it took a break.
To be honest I feel like the current patch schedule borders on being discouraging towards learning new champions. This is exasterbated by the fact that Riot has a tendency to be really inconsistent with what they feel out and what the get the fuck out of the game as fast as possible. An example for me personally is Azir, I actively chose not to learn this hero because I thought it was to complex and would get nerfed really quickly, but then he ended up being op for like 9 months. Meanwhile stuff like Graves or Sejuani was "op" for like 1 patch and they dished out nerfs. I'm not even demanding consistency because I think at certain points that isn't all that possible, but I feel like with Bi weekly patching I definitely consider if I want to learn a new "op" before I invest any time into it, and I don't think that is positive.
idk just looking for some opinions.
Yes. Its not clear to the average person what things that are clearly OP are going to be nerfed. I've noticed that if something is OP in pro play + bronze-gold it will be fairly quickly removed, but aside from that, no idea.
On January 04 2016 13:06 Slusher wrote: Wondering what people's take on patch cycles is. We touched on it for a couple of posts earlier in this thread, but today I saw Scarra tweeting that he was surprised by the lack of patches in recent weeks. Like I get the game has a glaring problem with masteries at the moment but because it's universal it doesn't really bother me much and I kinda like the game on this patch idk I just really don't like the bi-weekly patching and I'm surprised to see multiple people bring it up as a sore point that it took a break.
To be honest I feel like the current patch schedule borders on being discouraging towards learning new champions. This is exasterbated by the fact that Riot has a tendency to be really inconsistent with what they feel out and what the get the fuck out of the game as fast as possible. An example for me personally is Azir, I actively chose not to learn this hero because I thought it was to complex and would get nerfed really quickly, but then he ended up being op for like 9 months. Meanwhile stuff like Graves or Sejuani was "op" for like 1 patch and they dished out nerfs. I'm not even demanding consistency because I think at certain points that isn't all that possible, but I feel like with Bi weekly patching I definitely consider if I want to learn a new "op" before I invest any time into it, and I don't think that is positive.
idk just looking for some opinions.
If Scarra is noting a lack of patches over the Christmas/New Years break, that shows he was never paying attention in the offseason since Riot has NEVER put out patches during that time period.
On January 04 2016 15:59 RicerDivision wrote: Who beats Mundo right now?
I don't know, but Mundo vs Nasus match up is epic right now - 30 minutes farm fest translating into what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object hahaha
On January 04 2016 13:06 Slusher wrote: Wondering what people's take on patch cycles is. We touched on it for a couple of posts earlier in this thread, but today I saw Scarra tweeting that he was surprised by the lack of patches in recent weeks. Like I get the game has a glaring problem with masteries at the moment but because it's universal it doesn't really bother me much and I kinda like the game on this patch idk I just really don't like the bi-weekly patching and I'm surprised to see multiple people bring it up as a sore point that it took a break.
To be honest I feel like the current patch schedule borders on being discouraging towards learning new champions. This is exasterbated by the fact that Riot has a tendency to be really inconsistent with what they feel out and what the get the fuck out of the game as fast as possible. An example for me personally is Azir, I actively chose not to learn this hero because I thought it was to complex and would get nerfed really quickly, but then he ended up being op for like 9 months. Meanwhile stuff like Graves or Sejuani was "op" for like 1 patch and they dished out nerfs. I'm not even demanding consistency because I think at certain points that isn't all that possible, but I feel like with Bi weekly patching I definitely consider if I want to learn a new "op" before I invest any time into it, and I don't think that is positive.
idk just looking for some opinions.
I like the fortnightlyish patching, but I don't think Riot uses it as effectively as they could. I would really like to see more small touches to unpopular / struggling champs or underused masteries or items. If something is broken as a result, it's only so for a couple of weeks.
I personally am not interested in learning the "OPs" (I can see why people are though), so if the "best" champs are in a state of flux, it doesn't bother me. In my opinion, Riot should be doing everything they can to promote diversity at the competitive level. The one thing that turns me off a pro game is seeing the same champs/strategy over and over. Frequent patching can be used as part of a greater whole (more bans pls). Give me a season of jungle diversity please!
I kinda hate the game on this patch, so I'm looking forward to when they get back.
On January 04 2016 15:59 RicerDivision wrote: Who beats Mundo right now?
I had a Ryze earlier today slaughter Mundo in lane, but the Mundo did take Stormraiders so I don't know how demonstrative it really is.The whole point of Mundo is he doesn't really lose or win lane, he just gets by til late where he can go as he pleases.
On January 03 2016 07:59 Alaric wrote: That's the thing though, I dunno what would suit my laning ways better. I could stay on Ashe but something without mobility is suicidal with my level of stutter-stepping and mechanics in general, and I dislike Lucian on principle (since because he's "the guy who casts spells" he's the reason Graves was left in the dust and changed so many times, and in the end reworked, but he doesn't have the same feel at all when you play).
What I liked about Graves was the burst, and the way you can turn on people if you've got enough farm, so as long as I didn't farm like shit and my support made some space for me, I could play around my cooldowns, which is something I'm more used to do. And post-6 if you're already ahead you can, if not kill people, at least be unopposed because of the risk you just 100-0 someone. What I meant about the "feel" is that Q and R had a very "visceral" feel when you cast them, with satisfying sounds and the burst of damage and all (bit like Mundo cleavers or Pantheon's Q), Lucian's animations don't do that at all to me (on top of disliking him anyway), but I'm not sure there's any marksman who foots that bill anymore. Maybe Corki? But I'm really bad at him, from whenever I tried to play him.
Maybe I'll move to Caitlyn. She does better damage now so even if I don't win the laning phase I won't be as much of a dead weight.
Sounds like you need a little bit of Drrrrrrrrraven in your life.
On January 04 2016 15:59 RicerDivision wrote: Who beats Mundo right now?
I don't know, but Mundo vs Nasus match up is epic right now - 30 minutes farm fest translating into what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object hahaha
good one, still I think Nasus will do more in Team fights!
idk about farm fest. If you are taking ignite nasus can easily kill mundo at any point past level 4, especially if the mundo is inexperienced.
Infact it just happened last night, slowly whittled him down with undying grasp procs and E harass and then E-Q ignite flash burst him on his tower for FB once lane pushed.
once you get frozen fist he is again an easy 300 gold if he misplays
after that yea you wont be able to kill him and should probably go teamfight, one of the few champs I dont bother trying to brute force push on since he can freeze waves easily and just sit back and cleaver
Trundle is alright vs mundo, you'll have a hard time against an actual mundo player though since you'll just get kited by cleavers
Later on Trundle completely destroys Mundo in teamfights but has a harder time 1v1/ split so it depends how you want to play that out, Nasus is kinda vice versa. You have infinite Nasus stacking but that's not going to outpace Mundo tankiness until pretty late or if you're real ahead.
Trundle probably the better choice overall unless you're confident that you can destroy him w/ Nasus in lane (I think I agree with the above).
EDIT: Also me being dumb, but I never realized how substantial the heal on Trundle's ult was at lvl 2/3 with Visage and W active. Shit's insane. Does the damage apply pre or post the resistance steal? I'm assuming after but I'm not sure.
Sounds like the mundo was retarded. If he plays properly you really shouldn't be able to do anything unless you play well with your jungler. Like yea you can get a cs lead but does that really matter? He is just like ryze. If you don't fuck him early he will 1v9 you later.
The 8% more healing mastery is disgusting on trundle too.
On January 05 2016 07:11 ticklishmusic wrote: They should also have a "total damage to enemy champs from masteries" at end of games and damage from masteries mentioned on killscreens.
I'm actually really curious about this as well, I think it's super hard to gauge what kinda damage you are getting out of dft, with thunderlords you get the lightning bolt and burst damage so it's so viceral but with dft it might be adding up since it has no cd, but it's so hard to tell.
on that same token there was literally one time ever, it was in the grand finals at worlds where Bang was on Sivir (that's all I remember) where they did an instant damage parce after the team fight.
I hope this becomes a thing they do a lot moving foreword.
On January 05 2016 07:11 ticklishmusic wrote: They should also have a "total damage to enemy champs from masteries" at end of games and damage from masteries mentioned on killscreens.
I'm actually really curious about this as well, I think it's super hard to gauge what kinda damage you are getting out of dft, with thunderlords you get the lightning bolt and burst damage so it's so viceral but with dft it might be adding up since it has no cd, but it's so hard to tell.
on that same token there was literally one time ever, it was in the grand finals at worlds where Bang was on Sivir (that's all I remember) where they did an instant damage parce after the team fight.
I hope this becomes a thing they do a lot moving foreword.
That parse tells me there is a combat log, but it's not shown for whatever reason. It'd probably be
Given how shit the current death log is(better than it used to be admittedly, but still not great), making the backbone of it visible would be really good, especially with milli-second timestamps so you can really nail combos and stuff.
On January 05 2016 23:48 VayneAuthority wrote: what is like runes/mastery setup for jungle graves? they gutted all my junglers so i just say I cant jungle in queues atm.
12/18 standart ad page you can just change glyphs depending on what you want. Scaling mr best probably or maybe some atk speed and adding ad quints. Just give zac a go if you have to jungle and want to be a tank. He doesn't really get banned and is pretty good.
Zac is stupid good, first clear isn't the greatest but you can't beat the gank/ initiate from a screen away (passive GA is just icing). You really need damage from your team later on though, otherwise you CC the enemy team and then die.
On January 06 2016 02:19 ticklishmusic wrote: Zac is stupid good, first clear isn't the greatest but you can't beat the gank/ initiate from a screen away (passive GA is just icing). You really need damage from your team later on though, otherwise you CC the enemy team and then die.
On January 06 2016 02:19 ticklishmusic wrote: Zac is stupid good, first clear isn't the greatest but you can't beat the gank/ initiate from a screen away (passive GA is just icing). You really need damage from your team later on though, otherwise you CC the enemy team and then die.
What keystone mastery are you getting on Zac?
I've tried Windspeakers with a 18/12 page and everything with the 12/18 page lol,
On January 06 2016 01:42 ticklishmusic wrote: Graves is a bad AD, but he's good in a lot of other places
Good job Riot
Not really that different from making Sion a bad AP and moving Nidalee to the jungle?
New Nidalee is indeed quite a lame champion.
I'm awful with new Nid. I liked S2 nid. I wasn't good with her either, but all I had to do was occasionally hit a spear and I wouldn't look like trash.
solo lane graves is becoming a thing very quickly on NA
On January 06 2016 03:08 ticklishmusic wrote: Don't forget Soraka used to be able to heal herself and give herself mana
ScY hit #1 on the ladder playing this version of Soraka, combined with a full page of the original MR runes lol(also note her old passive was an aegis), it's pretty hard to forget, I've tried.
I was gonna do basically that for the dev contest. Then I lost interest. If there's pne thing I love it's other people making stuff for me so I don't have to.
I like new nid since she sucks against bruisers. the old one could just infinite kite/heal, new nid actually has to go in to do meaningful damage and then she dies to 1 nasus Q so basically cant ever gank me after 6.
The least fun era of this game for me was always sivir and friendz push squad. You just got alistar/taric/soraka/sivir and maybe kayle or warwick or something together and just steamrolled the other team with promotes and shit. The only way to stop it was have some form of devastating aoe CC like fiddlesticks
I cant remember if this was season 1 or pre season 1, I think it was before ranked.
On January 06 2016 03:08 ticklishmusic wrote: Don't forget Soraka used to be able to heal herself and give herself mana
ScY hit #1 on the ladder playing this version of Soraka, combined with a full page of the original MR runes lol(also note her old passive was an aegis), it's pretty hard to forget, I've tried.
You forgot the best part, the MR shred. SO MUCH MR SHRED. She pretty much did true damage a couple seconds into a fight.
Scarra's Soraka mid in IPL was truly another level of cancer.
As far as Graves is concerned, too much of his damage is based on his Q getting double proc. If you get the bounceback, then that with an auto attack + ult = 100-0 majority of non-tank champs.
At least it got him a ton of karma and a few months of gold on Reddit. I remember a few similar tools being available like... 2 years ago? The UI is nice but I think the functionality is something that I could build in Excel.
And good god did he have to give everything codenames based off of the Stormlight Archive? That's the equivalent of me naming my Excel tabs after Pokemon.
At least it got him a ton of karma and a few months of gold on Reddit. I remember a few similar tools being available like... 2 years ago? The UI is nice but I think the functionality is something that I could build in Excel.
And good god did he have to give everything codenames based off of the Stormlight Archive? That's the equivalent of me naming my Excel tabs after Pokemon.
At least it got him a ton of karma and a few months of gold on Reddit. I remember a few similar tools being available like... 2 years ago? The UI is nice but I think the functionality is something that I could build in Excel.
And good god did he have to give everything codenames based off of the Stormlight Archive? That's the equivalent of me naming my Excel tabs after Pokemon.
Plus he quit his job for it. The only thing I could see myself use it for is laning matchups, but it doesn't include OP potion so that's not really that fantastic either.
On January 06 2016 02:19 ticklishmusic wrote: Zac is stupid good, first clear isn't the greatest but you can't beat the gank/ initiate from a screen away (passive GA is just icing). You really need damage from your team later on though, otherwise you CC the enemy team and then die.
What keystone mastery are you getting on Zac?
I've tried Windspeakers with a 18/12 page and everything with the 12/18 page lol,
On January 06 2016 01:42 ticklishmusic wrote: Graves is a bad AD, but he's good in a lot of other places
Good job Riot
Not really that different from making Sion a bad AP and moving Nidalee to the jungle?
New Nidalee is indeed quite a lame champion.
I'm awful with new Nid. I liked S2 nid. I wasn't good with her either, but all I had to do was occasionally hit a spear and I wouldn't look like trash.
I liked old nid because she was hilarious poke. Like 1 spear and an ADC is down to 10%. So fun to watch in pro games. I would have preferred the nerf to her was just a waveclear on cougar form nerf because she was OP at some point.
the problem with old Nid (aside from the obvious if you hate poke) is her heal, once she got chalice she was unkillable in lane so there was no way to prevent her midgame powerspike of grail + rod item.
On January 06 2016 02:19 ticklishmusic wrote: Zac is stupid good, first clear isn't the greatest but you can't beat the gank/ initiate from a screen away (passive GA is just icing). You really need damage from your team later on though, otherwise you CC the enemy team and then die.
What keystone mastery are you getting on Zac?
I don't really like Bond of Stone since you'll often be diving by yourself and not standing next to your ADC. Strength of the Ages is a solid choice just for raw HP. Grasp of the Undying is not ideal since you don't AA much but definitely synergizes with all your +regen masteries and items.
On January 06 2016 06:20 ticklishmusic wrote: gotta go stanley-style and manmode with guinsoo's visage nid, outduel and outsplit everyone then show up for the multikill tho
crucially he ALSO went casual chalice in this build, a testament to how dumb her heal was.
On January 06 2016 06:20 ticklishmusic wrote: gotta go stanley-style and manmode with guinsoo's visage nid, outduel and outsplit everyone then show up for the multikill tho
crucially he ALSO went casual chalice in this build, a testament to how dumb her heal was.
yup, the synergy was pretty crazy. infinite mana powering your heal, which was ALSO an attack speed steroid, which let you guinsoo's even harder for damage + sustain, all of which scaled with visage lel
tanky (especially tons of MR) so you couldnt be bursted down, and your burst + sustain + tankiness let you outduel anyone in an extended fight. it was quite possibly the most broken thing in the game, except for canceraka ofc
On January 07 2016 01:25 Jek wrote: Meh. Nothing tops Riven now she can jump through walls. I could write multiple blogs about how atrocious I find Riven within the design of League.
On January 07 2016 01:25 Jek wrote: Meh. Nothing tops Riven now she can jump through walls. I could write multiple blogs about how atrocious I find Riven within the design of League.
On January 07 2016 01:25 Jek wrote: Meh. Nothing tops Riven now she can jump through walls. I could write multiple blogs about how atrocious I find Riven within the design of League.
#AllRivensmustdie
normally I'd agree with you but this preseason hasnt been too great for riven
so many ways to deal with her right now
i also didnt mind a lot of the stuff thats been changed since I started (s3) i miss old nid and gragas
I also feel like Riven really benefits from having more than two completed items (usually BC and Hydra) and wants a third one (probably one of the new LW items), which is generally the time that most games seem to be ending (ie., 25-30 minute mark). The changes to the juggernaut champs generally mean they can be a lane bully against her or trade well and heal up from it faster, and her being basically forced to take teleport over ignite means she can't win the level 2-6 duels as easy as she could before hand, cause even if she wins her lane opponent will just TP back to lane with an item and just wreck her.
I think I'd like to see another .25 added to her E's shield duration, or maybe buff her HP regen some more.
can someone teach me how to actually do well as caitlyn? bot lane you have next to 0 kill pressure, and even if you outfarm the other adc they're still more useful than you mid game. seems like i have shit dps until like 3 items.
Things happen when you get "gifted" the lowest base AS in the game (lower than Illaoi by 0.003) and an additional delay before your aa animation as part of your pre-season package. I think her Q also deals less damage than previously unless you hit people after it went through a whole minion wave.
On January 07 2016 08:31 Alaric wrote: Things happen when you get "gifted" the lowest base AD in the game (lower than Illaoi by 0.003) and an additional delay before your aa animation as part of your pre-season package. I think her Q also deals less damage than previously unless you hit people after it went through a whole minion wave.
wait she's lowest base ad? holy shit im done playing her even though she's my fave adc
I meant AS actually, typo. But it won't change much for you since it's much worse that way (especially for last hitting, or not getting punished by skillshots while last hitting; at level 1 the AS is not that noticeable as they gave her 10% bonus AS via her passive (similar to Diana's 15%), the delay in the aa however is). Lowest base AD is probably mini-Gnar, not that it matters in his case. Edit: his is actually good, it just doesn't grow much (still more than post-rework marksmen), the lowest is Orianna. Forgot about her taking a -6 base AD nerf to the face.
Lowest adc ad was twitch although he got buffed recently so I'm not sure at the moment. Previously 1 stack of his passive was basically accounted for by his ad
I like a bunch of authoritative/stern/"strong" voices (GP, Pantheon, Poppy, Vi, Sejuani) but some are pretty off (Mordekaiser or Galio have really "small" voices compared to the original ones, or even the stature of the champion) and you can really feel the typecasting in some voices (Morgana, Yasuo, Lulu, Ziggs). Some of them are so overdone I wonder if I'd bear them for an entire game (Ziggs again). Some are too typecast and lack nuances (Twitch, Veigar, Jinx, etc.).
Ironically, Gragas' overdoes things a lot less than a big bunch of characters, despite being the completely drunk dude. Eh.
On January 07 2016 04:51 Gahlo wrote: The biggest problem with Riven right now is that Brutalizer doesn't exist, and it solved a lot of her issues before.
Riven really sucks vs top poppy right? been using her as my go-to top laner, and i think i've only lost lane ones vs riven, and that was against an extremely creative zac jungle that camped me to all hell. it might get more even near top of diamond/master+ but low diamond seems to be a serious struggle for riven.
Before even if you werent that good at the champion she was playable but now only the actual riven players can make her work. Also some champs like lulu just make her useless.
I am very surprised that talon still isn't the most played mid lol. Yea his lane is meh but if you can get to 2 items he just goes full on disgusting. I guess he just isn't faceroll enough like ahri or w/e to be played that much.
Just straight up building armor counters him a lot harder than most other assasins though, he doesn't have built-in magic damage or armor pen. Of course this is from a top laner's perspective, dunno about adc.
On January 07 2016 04:51 Gahlo wrote: The biggest problem with Riven right now is that Brutalizer doesn't exist, and it solved a lot of her issues before.
Riven really sucks vs top poppy right? been using her as my go-to top laner, and i think i've only lost lane ones vs riven, and that was against an extremely creative zac jungle that camped me to all hell. it might get more even near top of diamond/master+ but low diamond seems to be a serious struggle for riven.
Rvien sucks right now against anybody that can build armor. Just rush Tabi/Sunfire and she can't win any lanes.
On January 07 2016 04:51 Gahlo wrote: The biggest problem with Riven right now is that Brutalizer doesn't exist, and it solved a lot of her issues before.
Riven really sucks vs top poppy right? been using her as my go-to top laner, and i think i've only lost lane ones vs riven, and that was against an extremely creative zac jungle that camped me to all hell. it might get more even near top of diamond/master+ but low diamond seems to be a serious struggle for riven.
Rvien sucks right now against anybody that can build armor. Just rush Tabi/Sunfire and she can't win any lanes.
I've just been killing riven at lvl 2 or 3 then going back getting glacial shard and then after that point it's not even close I don't think i've ever bought ninja tabi except vs graves or quinn top. I think the ability to completely ignore rivens third Q and the fact that riven can't outrade poppy early makes the lane tough, regardless of what poppy buys.
I wouldn't exactly say Riven is weak at the moment, she just doesn't get free kills in lane. When she hits 40cdr she is still the most annoying champ in the game.
On January 07 2016 04:51 Gahlo wrote: The biggest problem with Riven right now is that Brutalizer doesn't exist, and it solved a lot of her issues before.
Riven really sucks vs top poppy right? been using her as my go-to top laner, and i think i've only lost lane ones vs riven, and that was against an extremely creative zac jungle that camped me to all hell. it might get more even near top of diamond/master+ but low diamond seems to be a serious struggle for riven.
Rvien sucks right now against anybody that can build armor. Just rush Tabi/Sunfire and she can't win any lanes.
I've just been killing riven at lvl 2 or 3 then going back getting glacial shard and then after that point it's not even close I don't think i've ever bought ninja tabi except vs graves or quinn top. I think the ability to completely ignore rivens third Q and the fact that riven can't outrade poppy early makes the lane tough, regardless of what poppy buys.
Riven gets a lot of damage out of her passive, which is reduced by Tabi.
On January 07 2016 04:51 Gahlo wrote: The biggest problem with Riven right now is that Brutalizer doesn't exist, and it solved a lot of her issues before.
Riven really sucks vs top poppy right? been using her as my go-to top laner, and i think i've only lost lane ones vs riven, and that was against an extremely creative zac jungle that camped me to all hell. it might get more even near top of diamond/master+ but low diamond seems to be a serious struggle for riven.
Rvien sucks right now against anybody that can build armor. Just rush Tabi/Sunfire and she can't win any lanes.
I've just been killing riven at lvl 2 or 3 then going back getting glacial shard and then after that point it's not even close I don't think i've ever bought ninja tabi except vs graves or quinn top. I think the ability to completely ignore rivens third Q and the fact that riven can't outrade poppy early makes the lane tough, regardless of what poppy buys.
Riven gets a lot of damage out of her passive, which is reduced by Tabi.
yeah i know. But i feel like poppys trade and all in methods tend to mitigate that anyway. since Q auto -> either second hit of Q or a 2nd auto as they run away. is pretty difficult to trade back into when you have a 15% max hp shield they have to bust through. Poppy seems to have issues with the champs that deal damage while retreating or who are able to turnaround small bursts, like darius/fiora/rumble.
On January 07 2016 22:58 kongoline wrote: pretty sure if u kill anyone at lvl2 u will shit on them no matter what champion they are playing lol
I mean yeah. but riven can't even fight poppy. even without that kill advantage i was wondering for a perspective from the riven side, since i don't play her. It's seemed brutally unfair every time i played the matchup. About as unfair as it is to play poppy into rumble, you just get destroyed unless you sit and wait like a caged animal.
On January 07 2016 04:51 Gahlo wrote: The biggest problem with Riven right now is that Brutalizer doesn't exist, and it solved a lot of her issues before.
Riven really sucks vs top poppy right? been using her as my go-to top laner, and i think i've only lost lane ones vs riven, and that was against an extremely creative zac jungle that camped me to all hell. it might get more even near top of diamond/master+ but low diamond seems to be a serious struggle for riven.
Rvien sucks right now against anybody that can build armor. Just rush Tabi/Sunfire and she can't win any lanes.
I've just been killing riven at lvl 2 or 3 then going back getting glacial shard and then after that point it's not even close I don't think i've ever bought ninja tabi except vs graves or quinn top. I think the ability to completely ignore rivens third Q and the fact that riven can't outrade poppy early makes the lane tough, regardless of what poppy buys.
Riven gets a lot of damage out of her passive, which is reduced by Tabi.
yeah i know. But i feel like poppys trade and all in methods tend to mitigate that anyway. since Q auto -> either second hit of Q or a 2nd auto as they run away. is pretty difficult to trade back into when you have a 15% max hp shield they have to bust through. Poppy seems to have issues with the champs that deal damage while retreating or who are able to turnaround small bursts, like darius/fiora/rumble.
On January 07 2016 22:58 kongoline wrote: pretty sure if u kill anyone at lvl2 u will shit on them no matter what champion they are playing lol
I mean yeah. but riven can't even fight poppy. even without that kill advantage i was wondering for a perspective from the riven side, since i don't play her. It's seemed brutally unfair every time i played the matchup. About as unfair as it is to play poppy into rumble, you just get destroyed unless you sit and wait like a caged animal.
Riven can't lane against a Poppy unless the Poppy doesn't know how to play Poppy. Riven can't really top lane right now in general unless you have near perfect control.
What makes it so hard for Riven to trade with Poppy? Sure Poppy's W will negate one Q or the E, but it has a longer cooldown than both, and Riven's got too many dashes that Poppy's W will prevent her from dashing outside Poppy's Q "explosion." It is just the cd on her passive that makes Poppy force a trade whenever it's up?
poppys damage is really high early. Even nasus struggles with her early game, its like renekton level harass. So yea I can see why riven would have no chance. The difference is that nasus will eventually reach frozen fist and simply force her out of lane whereas riven will never get to that point and constantly just be countered.
Riven's power curve is just kinda shitty now compared to other champs, she can't get damage (and tankiness via CC/shield) faster than other champs get tanky and damage reliably
I mean if you're a Riven god sure you can win because you know the mechanics, tactics and matchup, but if you play other champs half decently you'll likely have an easier time winning. Riven is fun as heck to play, but it's not going to be the pick that wins you games and such the most.
So basically y'all are saying that Riven players are experiencing what Pantheon players experienced starting somewhere in s3, minus the ability to actually turn things once you get farmed lategame thanks to her bullshit design?
I wonder when's the last time I've seen a Pantheon, actually... Scarra played it mid once a few days ago, but even in the jungle it's months since the last one in my games that wasn't me playing it.
On January 08 2016 00:06 Alaric wrote: What makes it so hard for Riven to trade with Poppy? Sure Poppy's W will negate one Q or the E, but it has a longer cooldown than both, and Riven's got too many dashes that Poppy's W will prevent her from dashing outside Poppy's Q "explosion." It is just the cd on her passive that makes Poppy force a trade whenever it's up?
Because in the current meta, if you ever lose a trade as Riven you probably can't win your lane anymore without jungle intervention. Her damage can't keep up with opposing laners durability unless ahead. She can't fall back on building durability, because then she won't have any damage. She requires superb play while being one of the hardest champions to play properly without the massive benefit of doing so that champions like Azir have.
They just need to reactivate the Edge rework on the PBE and push it live at this point.
Pantheon is at least good in the jungle. Riven really isn't good anywhere unless you force her mid.
I remember someone awhile ago recommended an alternative playstyle as a CC bot by building full tank + CDR. Maybe a 12/18/0 or 0/18/12 page. I didn't think it was great b/c Riven has kinda cruddy base defense stats, but maybe it works better than I thought.
On January 08 2016 01:53 ticklishmusic wrote: I remember someone awhile ago recommended an alternative playstyle as a CC bot by building full tank + CDR. Maybe a 12/18/0 or 0/18/12 page. I didn't think it was great b/c Riven has kinda cruddy base defense stats, but maybe it works better than I thought.
It's a bit more stable, yeah, but ends up not being much better overall.
On January 08 2016 01:35 Alaric wrote: So basically y'all are saying that Riven players are experiencing what Pantheon players experienced starting somewhere in s3, minus the ability to actually turn things once you get farmed lategame thanks to her bullshit design?
I wonder when's the last time I've seen a Pantheon, actually... Scarra played it mid once a few days ago, but even in the jungle it's months since the last one in my games that wasn't me playing it.
Almost every second game of mine I see Pantheon in jungle and I have to say, he's not in a bad spot to be honest.
If this is their hype video for EU. The NA hype video should just be videos of NA players tossing money around. Then the LPL hype video should be Chinese and Korean players swimming in money, and driving Lambo's. Then for LCK, show a sweatshop.
On January 08 2016 03:50 Ansibled wrote: Reading the Reddit reaction to this video, it would seem that Riot knows their audience very well.
Riot proves once more they know how to do their shit better than Ansibled, it seems...
It's a hype video, designed to get fans into LCS again. Fans care most about the fact that Yellowstar, Froggen, Huni, and Reignover left. Of course it's gonna focus on them.
On January 08 2016 03:50 Ansibled wrote: Reading the Reddit reaction to this video, it would seem that Riot knows their audience very well.
Riot proves once more they know how to do their shit better than Ansibled, it seems...
It's a hype video, designed to get fans into LCS again. Fans care most about the fact that Yellowstar, Froggen, Huni, and Reignover left. Of course it's gonna focus on them.
Are you saying it's impossible to create hype without lying to your audience? I never said Riot were bad at what they did, I just find it surprising how much bullshit they go through.
For example Fnatic was probably a top 4 team in the World last year which is a great achievement, but that's not enough. They have to say 2 of the top 4 teams in the World last year were European.
On January 08 2016 00:06 Alaric wrote: What makes it so hard for Riven to trade with Poppy? Sure Poppy's W will negate one Q or the E, but it has a longer cooldown than both, and Riven's got too many dashes that Poppy's W will prevent her from dashing outside Poppy's Q "explosion." It is just the cd on her passive that makes Poppy force a trade whenever it's up?
When you manage poppy's passive properly, you can pretty much deny 2-3 CS with it per wave, unless someone is willing to take a trade where they have to deal an extra 15% of your max hp to go even. Poppy's second Q hit is a 1 second delay so if i use it on you, and you do anything but walk out of the range you are probably going to get hit as long as i don't aim it poorly. with thunderlords that's only 1 auto needed to pop that and deal the Q damage. At level 1 her Q does 45+6% HP damage per hit, which means vs riven it's about 80-85 per hit an auto plus that and thunderlords is dealing between 150-240 damage during which you have to deal 240-330 damage to break even with poppy because of the passive shield. All that takes 1 second for poppy, often return damage is going to take longer since poppy is going to just be walking away through minions if you chase. Even rapidly using all 3 Q's of riven takes longer than that, and the third one will never hit poppy because of W. which means no knock up. When W is on cooldown poppy can threaten a wall stun, which controls where riven can stand and even last hit with the passive.
Even just using the heroic charge into the lane without a stun, followed by Q and then auto can trade well, as riven would need to chase you down with a dash to deal with it, and at any point in time you can cut off the chase with a W.
Renekton can struggle in a similar way vs poppy, but not nearly as bad, because renektons Q outranges poppy's, so he can at least dance around, or hope Poppy has poor reaction speed. When i poppy top i see people rush to pick Vlad, Renekton and Riven into it, and it baffles me because those are three great matchups for poppy. Just pick Rumble or Fiora and enjoy the lane.
On January 08 2016 00:06 Alaric wrote: What makes it so hard for Riven to trade with Poppy? Sure Poppy's W will negate one Q or the E, but it has a longer cooldown than both, and Riven's got too many dashes that Poppy's W will prevent her from dashing outside Poppy's Q "explosion." It is just the cd on her passive that makes Poppy force a trade whenever it's up?
When you manage poppy's passive properly, you can pretty much deny 2-3 CS with it per wave, unless someone is willing to take a trade where they have to deal an extra 15% of your max hp to go even. Poppy's second Q hit is a 1 second delay so if i use it on you, and you do anything but walk out of the range you are probably going to get hit as long as i don't aim it poorly. with thunderlords that's only 1 auto needed to pop that and deal the Q damage. At level 1 her Q does 45+6% HP damage per hit, which means vs riven it's about 80-85 per hit an auto plus that and thunderlords is dealing between 150-240 damage during which you have to deal 240-330 damage to break even with poppy because of the passive shield. All that takes 1 second for poppy, often return damage is going to take longer since poppy is going to just be walking away through minions if you chase. Even rapidly using all 3 Q's of riven takes longer than that, and the third one will never hit poppy because of W. which means no knock up. When W is on cooldown poppy can threaten a wall stun, which controls where riven can stand and even last hit with the passive.
Even just using the heroic charge into the lane without a stun, followed by Q and then auto can trade well, as riven would need to chase you down with a dash to deal with it, and at any point in time you can cut off the chase with a W.
Renekton can struggle in a similar way vs poppy, but not nearly as bad, because renektons Q outranges poppy's, so he can at least dance around, or hope Poppy has poor reaction speed. When i poppy top i see people rush to pick Vlad, Renekton and Riven into it, and it baffles me because those are three great matchups for poppy. Just pick Rumble or Fiora and enjoy the lane.
from what i've seen, heard, and played, lulu top absolutely takes a steaming dump on him
from what i've seen, heard, and played, lulu top absolutely takes a steaming dump on him
on poppy? Lulu is annoying because you have to play around polymorph. but your Teleports and gank assist are better by a good margin. I don't think i've ever dominated a lulu in lane like a lot of other champs, but i've farmed it out and won bot lane instead a couple times. I'd rather play that matchup (or the liss one, which goes the same way) than play vs rumble or Fiora though. Straight stalemate lanes, where neither player can kill the other are boring (lulu/poppy Liss/Poppy), but its better than just cowering and praying like rumble/fiora.. Darius is the annoying matchup it is for a ton of top laners, where if you screw up its over. but otherwise isn't as bad as you'd think.
from what i've seen, heard, and played, lulu top absolutely takes a steaming dump on him
on poppy? Lulu is annoying because you have to play around polymorph. but your Teleports and gank assist are better by a good margin. I don't think i've ever dominated a lulu in lane like a lot of other champs, but i've farmed it out and won bot lane instead a couple times. I'd rather play that matchup (or the liss one, which goes the same way) than play vs rumble or Fiora though. Straight stalemate lanes, where neither player can kill the other are boring (lulu/poppy Liss/Poppy), but its better than just cowering and praying like rumble/fiora.. Darius is the annoying matchup it is for a ton of top laners, where if you screw up its over. but otherwise isn't as bad as you'd think.
i usually just make sure I have a ward or two on me and a pink every back while I perma push top+harass. poppy can never do anything 1v1. don't even have to polymorph, can just whimsy away and kite.
its a bit annoying if jg constantly comes to clear the pink ward but otherwise if played properly poppy cannot do anything and wont be allowed to TP (if he does he absolutely is at least giving up a tower)
lulu/poppy cannot easily kill each other, but one has the option of harassing nonstop
ive felt the same you did for riven/renek tho. also why is vlad bad vs poppy? I can't imagine that being hard as the vlad. just W the heroic charge if needed, and scale up to be a monster. cant see many situations where poppy is able to do anything vs him.
lul seems like a "lose less" pick rather than a "win more" pick unless you've got a carry that you really want to protect and the enemy team has an assassin
i usually just make sure I have a ward or two on me and a pink every back while I perma push top+harass. poppy can never do anything 1v1. don't even have to polymorph, can just whimsy away and kite.
its a bit annoying if jg constantly comes to clear the pink ward but otherwise if played properly poppy cannot do anything and wont be allowed to TP (if he does he absolutely is at least giving up a tower)
lulu/poppy cannot easily kill each other, but one has the option of harassing nonstop
ive felt the same you did for riven/renek tho. also why is vlad bad vs poppy? I can't imagine that being hard as the vlad. just W the heroic charge if needed, and scale up to be a monster. cant see many situations where poppy is able to do anything vs him.
Poppy is really strong lvl 1 and 2 which helps a lot. But mostly because Vlad doesn't heal much until 7, so you can keep his hp down with your passive alone, and he can't fight for the shield, because vlad doesn't want to get in close. Vlad Doesn't run Movespeed quints, and poppy does for matchups vs ranged champs. If you heroic charge vlad and he pools, he did the damage you were going to do, to himself, and your charge has half the cooldown, so you get to punish it next passive timer. Vlad likes to farm it out and take things late, but poppy applies pressure every 10-15 seconds, which makes vlad uncomfortable. during an all in, poppys ult is often enough to force a pool/flash so vlad doesn't get the full combo of Ult -> Q on landing -> autos until Q is about to be up then a heroic charge -> Q again.
Poppy is very sticky and has multiple ways to halt vlads retreat.
On January 08 2016 05:29 ticklishmusic wrote: lul seems like a "lose less" pick rather than a "win more" pick unless you've got a carry that you really want to protect and the enemy team has an assassin
Lulu can completely dick some match-ups. That'd be like picking Pantheon against certain match-ups in s2 less because you expect to carry your team and more because you'd trash the other guy so badly and zone him so you'd get a 5v4 for free unless the junglers made it a 2v1 against you. You [Lulu] don't need to be 10-0 if the other guy has almost no farm, you can support your jungler decently and help dives (esp. when roaming bot) and then protect whoever's ahead on your team to avoid the others making it a 4v4.
On January 08 2016 05:29 ticklishmusic wrote: lul seems like a "lose less" pick rather than a "win more" pick unless you've got a carry that you really want to protect and the enemy team has an assassin
i usually just make sure I have a ward or two on me and a pink every back while I perma push top+harass. poppy can never do anything 1v1. don't even have to polymorph, can just whimsy away and kite.
its a bit annoying if jg constantly comes to clear the pink ward but otherwise if played properly poppy cannot do anything and wont be allowed to TP (if he does he absolutely is at least giving up a tower)
lulu/poppy cannot easily kill each other, but one has the option of harassing nonstop
ive felt the same you did for riven/renek tho. also why is vlad bad vs poppy? I can't imagine that being hard as the vlad. just W the heroic charge if needed, and scale up to be a monster. cant see many situations where poppy is able to do anything vs him.
Poppy is really strong lvl 1 and 2 which helps a lot. But mostly because Vlad doesn't heal much until 7, so you can keep his hp down with your passive alone, and he can't fight for the shield, because vlad doesn't want to get in close. Vlad Doesn't run Movespeed quints, and poppy does for matchups vs ranged champs. If you heroic charge vlad and he pools, he did the damage you were going to do, to himself, and your charge has half the cooldown, so you get to punish it next passive timer. Vlad likes to farm it out and take things late, but poppy applies pressure every 10-15 seconds, which makes vlad uncomfortable. during an all in, poppys ult is often enough to force a pool/flash so vlad doesn't get the full combo of Ult -> Q on landing -> autos until Q is about to be up then a heroic charge -> Q again.
Poppy is very sticky and has multiple ways to halt vlads retreat.
hmm
from how I worked it out, vlad can safely farm the matchup and scale up till gunblade and Q max. vlad's Q has more range than poppy passive, so if poppy is posturing with the passive, vlad can safely get farm with a Q and wait till poppy to use her passive or she'll miss farm. lvl 1/2 vlad is weak in pretty much all matchups so he'll just play it as he always does and let the wave push in a bit early. miss a cs or two if needed.
you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
idk I just don't see the damage with a heroic charge and most likely only 1 part of Q hitting
how hard compared to some other matchups? for ex. I can't see it being harder than vlad vs say riven/renekton/etc. standard gapcloser high dmg tops. I can see it being harder than... shen gnar? if you agree with this then we're just using 'hard' differently.
I agree, but vlad also has a very mediocre winrate at 48%. most of his good winrates come from easy matchups such as ap tops or tank tops with no gapclosers. all his bad winrates come from ad tops with gapclosers. I think it's a safe assumption that his high winrates come from easy lane matchups.
On January 08 2016 06:52 dsyxelic wrote: idk I just don't see the damage with a heroic charge and most likely only 1 part of Q hitting
how hard compared to some other matchups? for ex. I can't see it being harder than vlad vs say riven/renekton/etc. standard gapcloser high dmg tops. I can see it being harder than... shen gnar? if you agree with this then we're just using 'hard' differently.
I agree, but vlad also has a very mediocre winrate at 48%. most of his good winrates come from easy matchups such as ap tops or tank tops with no gapclosers. all his bad winrates come from ad tops with gapclosers. I think it's a safe assumption that his high winrates come from easy lane matchups.
I also don't play poppy as a tank. I play her most like a bruiser i guess? Hexdrinker's Iceborn Gauntlet's Scimitar's. I think i get maybe 1 item that doesn't add to her offense, occasionally getting the dead man's plate when i need to (high physical damage top or mid). Which is probably why i do so well vs vlad. I haven't played vlad top since before gnar existed so i'm not qualified to talk about other matchups. From the Champion.gg items, i don't buy cleaver, tabi or Steraks, and dead man's not until 3rd or 4th item.
Also, really people buy Steraks on poppy? it's literally only a shield. a Locket would do more for her.
When you Charge onto vlad you tend to throw shield -> charge -> auto + Q. Vlad then has to pick between getting out of the Q or fighting back, either way poppy gets another auto and can just walk over to her shield uncontested and absorb all return autos/ tides. Then repeat 15 seconds later. even if they only get 1 part of Q hitting them, you deal the charge base, an auto plus passive bonus damage, half a Q, and an extra auto attack (or 2). Laning there is a nightmare for vlad until he gets jungle help or finishes an item. I've genuinely not had an issue vs vlad until 20 minutes.
I think saving Heroic charge purely for stuns is a mistake against champs like vlad and most ranged champs in general. a free gapcloser is a positive. even if it only deals 75 damage and leads to thunderlords.
PX have you played vs a Garen? I've been playing a lot more League recently spamming him but I haven't seen a single Poppy, so I was wondering whether you could maybe tell me something about the matchup.
On January 08 2016 07:16 Fildun wrote: PX have you played vs a Garen? I've been playing a lot more League recently spamming him but I haven't seen a single Poppy, so I was wondering whether you could maybe tell me something about the matchup.
Only twice. Once i dominated, once i went even. I'm pretty sure the guy i beat up on wasn't a top laner so that game is kind of a wash, he played aggressive at level 1 and i hit 2 first and just stomped him and the other game i died twice in lane because i screwed up a few times, like forgetting i was the villain once LOL but it wasn't an easy matchup even if i didnt make the mistakes.
I do think saving your silence (post 6) to stop my ult would be key at least to getting a kill, because i imagine like the darius matchup i want to avoid the execute ult by disengaging with ult. Garens Passive seems like it'd help a lot in the matchup too, since poppy likes to wear you down over a few waves. I think there would be a bit of a dance between garen trying to wait out until poppy uses her shield to last hit to make it so poppy has to commit or use mana to stop the garen regen. The Reaction burden is probably on garen where its normally on poppy, using his defensive spell to block a lot of poppys burst. instead of poppy looking to stop a dash on reaction with her W. Garen pushes a lot better though, so if worse comes to worse you can farm it out and put pressure on the poppy to last hit well under tower. she's got some awkward last hitting in that situation.
So Ranked becomes much worse for me around January 16th, it looks like. Depending on the order in which they proceed and prob closer to 18th because week-ends.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
1) Vlad can run MS quints perfectly fine, and has in the past 2) Vlad's winrate is also shit but against poppy it is Pretty Great, while Poppy's mediocre winrate is even worse vs Vlad 3) In Vlad vs Poppy, Vlad tends to have a greater gold lead in the laning phase and then it evens out a bit more over time
So maybe your results are true for you, where you personally do fine vs Vlad as Poppy, but your logic is terrible.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
1) Vlad can run MS quints perfectly fine, and has in the past 2) Vlad's winrate is also shit but against poppy it is Pretty Great, while Poppy's mediocre winrate is even worse vs Vlad 3) In Vlad vs Poppy, Vlad tends to have a greater gold lead in the laning phase and then it evens out a bit more over time
So maybe your results are true for you, where you personally do fine vs Vlad as Poppy, but your logic is terrible.
Welcome back PX to TL LoL.
1) Source? Explanation? Reasoning? Anything? 2) According to this: http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=top-matchup&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond poppy has a 49.5% winrate against Vladimir in about 500 games. 3) I don't think something as specific as gold leads is something you can really build on with a champion that has been reworked as recently as Poppy. According to champion.gg 94% of the people that played Poppy played her 15 games or less, so this doesn't say anything except that players learning a champion tend to do worse than experienced players.
On January 08 2016 07:16 Fildun wrote: PX have you played vs a Garen? I've been playing a lot more League recently spamming him but I haven't seen a single Poppy, so I was wondering whether you could maybe tell me something about the matchup.
Only twice. Once i dominated, once i went even. I'm pretty sure the guy i beat up on wasn't a top laner so that game is kind of a wash, he played aggressive at level 1 and i hit 2 first and just stomped him and the other game i died twice in lane because i screwed up a few times, like forgetting i was the villain once LOL but it wasn't an easy matchup even if i didnt make the mistakes.
I do think saving your silence (post 6) to stop my ult would be key at least to getting a kill, because i imagine like the darius matchup i want to avoid the execute ult by disengaging with ult. Garens Passive seems like it'd help a lot in the matchup too, since poppy likes to wear you down over a few waves. I think there would be a bit of a dance between garen trying to wait out until poppy uses her shield to last hit to make it so poppy has to commit or use mana to stop the garen regen. The Reaction burden is probably on garen where its normally on poppy, using his defensive spell to block a lot of poppys burst. instead of poppy looking to stop a dash on reaction with her W. Garen pushes a lot better though, so if worse comes to worse you can farm it out and put pressure on the poppy to last hit well under tower. she's got some awkward last hitting in that situation.
The way I like to play Garen is usually with short trades, start off with auto-Q-E or just Q-E, then spin back out as the silence wears off. I try to get people to about 35% HP with these trades, at which point I can just flash-Q-E-ignite-R while they're silenced, so you can't really ult Garen away as Poppy in that scenario. Now I don't really know how much damage Poppy does (e.g. can she effectively trade into minions while my Q and E are down) so this might not be the optimal strategy but it seems pretty good to me. Btw, what item build do you go and is your damage only physical or do you go for a build that also includes some magic damage?
The way I like to play Garen is usually with short trades, start off with auto-Q-E or just Q-E, then spin back out as the silence wears off. I try to get people to about 35% HP with these trades, at which point I can just flash-Q-E-ignite-R while they're silenced, so you can't really ult Garen away as Poppy in that scenario. Now I don't really know how much damage Poppy does (e.g. can she effectively trade into minions while my Q and E are down) so this might not be the optimal strategy but it seems pretty good to me. Btw, what item build do you go and is your damage only physical or do you go for a build that also includes some magic damage?
Poppy trades well into minions with her passive up, not as much without it. Her main ability (Q) is bufferable, so it's a pain in the ass to try to trade into her even with a disable. Good poppys should spend almost all of their stun/silence (except of course for super long stuns like high lvl garen Q or CHo gath silence) time in their Q animation. You can expect to take about 300 physical damage in a short trade before lvl 5 or 6, and have 1.5 seconds to respond. Poppy also is surprisingly good at kiting melee champs, because of the slow field on her Q. I don't think garen should be killed vs poppy solo unless he lets himself get harrassed enugh that his passive isn't functional, or he gets himself wall stunned.
Itemwise: i start cloth+5 vs matchups i'm super unsure about that deal physical damage (whether it's because i've never played it, or it's fiora or darius), Dorans Shield against ranged champs, except ryze, where i start Boots. When you can't get a full item, stocking up on longswords isn't a problem, but generally i'll grab a hexdrinker if it's needed, and then finish (or just go straight) iceborn gauntlet, after that I hit up a pickaxe and then finish maw (or if there is no magic damage at all, i grab pickaxe + chain vest)
The goal is to get Iceborne gauntlet, and then any of Maw Scimitar Ghostblade Lord Dominiks Blood Thirster,Dead Man's Plate as needed occasional GA, if the game goes late and you need it.
I've kind of turned into a 1 trick pony with poppy since she got reworked, because it's so much fun. I'd say my current skill level after the season off is mid-high plat, but i've gotten to D4 with playing almost exclusively poppy.
Poppys damage is probably 10-20% magical at most? almost all physical. she only deals magic damage when stopping dashes and with her passive (which is 10+10/level magic damage, on a 20-10 second CD based on lvl) but the Good poppys will be running Armor pen runes, and at least one Arpen item, so poppy will still hurt unless you heavily itemize for armor, in which case the poppy is best served just stunning you for someone else to kill or exploding your squishies depending on the situation.
on a different note, has anyone noticed if sometimes poppys flash doesn't go on cooldown if you try to E someone out of range then flash into range? i can't tell if its a bug or just my not understanding the range properly, but i've had situations that i'm pretty sure i flashed into an E, but my flash wasn't on CD after. because it doesn't play the flash visual effects, but i start dashing well before where i thought i should have.
On January 08 2016 21:53 Fildun wrote: Did you try starting Corrupting Potion? It's pretty broken, I even start it on Garen lol.
I don't enjoy it. because top lane on blue can get away with taking the sentries off blue buff without missing a minion and hitting lvl 2 after the 3 melee minions die, and lvl 3 after the 2nd wave dies. And on red/purple side you can take the tiniest Krug for a 2 minion advantage in XP. With corrupting pot you can't do that as effectively or at all with some top laners. And poppy isn't trading over a long time or consistently over a short period, so much of the pot's cost is wasted if i don't use the extra damage well.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
1) Vlad can run MS quints perfectly fine, and has in the past 2) Vlad's winrate is also shit but against poppy it is Pretty Great, while Poppy's mediocre winrate is even worse vs Vlad 3) In Vlad vs Poppy, Vlad tends to have a greater gold lead in the laning phase and then it evens out a bit more over time
So maybe your results are true for you, where you personally do fine vs Vlad as Poppy, but your logic is terrible.
Welcome back PX to TL LoL.
1) Source? Explanation? Reasoning? Anything? 2) According to this: http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=top-matchup&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond poppy has a 49.5% winrate against Vladimir in about 500 games. 3) I don't think something as specific as gold leads is something you can really build on with a champion that has been reworked as recently as Poppy. According to champion.gg 94% of the people that played Poppy played her 15 games or less, so this doesn't say anything except that players learning a champion tend to do worse than experienced players.
Zess, your logic is fucking abysmal.
Perhaps you mistook me for arguing that Vlad counters Poppy, but even going by your matchup table, it still offers very little support for PX's argument that picking Vlad into Poppy is asking to get rekt like Renekton or Riven, because Vlad isn't as bad of a pick against Poppy like her good matchups are, and Poppy is not even close to being one of worst champions to pick Vlad into. It looks like even in this small sample (because champion.gg's sample has too many plat plebs) that Poppy vs Vlad ends up about as well as Poppy vs Fiora (and all 3 have roughly the same overall Diamond winrate according to http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/)
So to answer PX's question of why people pick Vlad into Poppy, it's because on average you do good enough, with the worst case probably because playing Vlad mostly involves trying not to die and then turning into a certified-Rekkles-tier POWER MULTIPLIER player later in the game. This is in contrast to his examples of Renekton and Riven, which are in fact terrible champions to pick into Poppy.
Perhaps you mistook me for arguing that Vlad counters Poppy, but even going by your matchup table, it still offers very little support for PX's argument that picking Vlad into Poppy is asking to get rekt like Renekton or Riven, because Vlad isn't as bad of a pick against Poppy like her good matchups are, and Poppy is not even close to being one of worst champions to pick Vlad into. It looks like even in this small sample (because champion.gg's sample has too many plat plebs) that Poppy vs Vlad ends up about as well as Poppy vs Fiora (and all 3 have roughly the same overall Diamond winrate according to http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/)
So to answer PX's question of why people pick Vlad into Poppy, it's because on average you do good enough, with the worst case probably because playing Vlad mostly involves trying not to die and then turning into a certified-Rekkles-tier POWER MULTIPLIER player later in the game. This is in contrast to his examples of Renekton and Riven, which are in fact terrible champions to pick into Poppy.
I'd argue that my play of poppy, as someone who has played over a hundred poppy matches, is maybe more representative of how the matchup should be played and how poppy should be built than the aggregate of a bunch of people that play her the first dozen times?
I think poppy isn't a matchup you want to pick vlad into, when poppy isn't played like a tank or juggernaut, like riot told you to do. Vlads typically do worse than even the standard meta picks.
Also fiora destroys poppy. but a lot of people pick fiora who don't know how to play her, because she's popular competitively, and junglers do a good job of camping people who pick fiora. Renekton is ALSO near vlad in winrate on stat sites, but he also gets destroyed by good poppys. If people were picking vlad like i pick poppy, because its fun and they want to play vlad, that'd be one thing. but i've seen insta lock pick 1 vlads when they see i have poppy, which leads me to believe people are just picking them because they see it on a site that its a "counter". and then get destroyed because vlad "beats" poppy in the way that Ryze or Talon "Beat" Ahri. They win the game, not the lane.
Another example of that is mundo, Poppy doesn't struggle in lane, and is stronger in teleports, but Mundo wins games on his own, and poppy doesn't in solo queue. as such mundo is listed as a "counter" when in reality, It's not a way to win lane.
I'd argue that the only reason that matchup is even close to that on those sites, is in part because people play her poorly because she's new and riot told people to play her improperly, but also because poppy really really sucks are closing out games in solo queue. I expect the winrate on those sites to slowly begin to reflect her actual matchups after the "new champ" wave dies off and people actually develop how to play her.
I Think vlads not an awful pick. but it's one of poppys better matchup for sure. Sites also say that Rumble is a good matchup for poppy but. dude. it's not fun.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
1) Vlad can run MS quints perfectly fine, and has in the past 2) Vlad's winrate is also shit but against poppy it is Pretty Great, while Poppy's mediocre winrate is even worse vs Vlad 3) In Vlad vs Poppy, Vlad tends to have a greater gold lead in the laning phase and then it evens out a bit more over time
So maybe your results are true for you, where you personally do fine vs Vlad as Poppy, but your logic is terrible.
Welcome back PX to TL LoL.
1) Source? Explanation? Reasoning? Anything? 2) According to this: http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=top-matchup&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond poppy has a 49.5% winrate against Vladimir in about 500 games. 3) I don't think something as specific as gold leads is something you can really build on with a champion that has been reworked as recently as Poppy. According to champion.gg 94% of the people that played Poppy played her 15 games or less, so this doesn't say anything except that players learning a champion tend to do worse than experienced players.
Zess, your logic is fucking abysmal.
Perhaps you mistook me for arguing that Vlad counters Poppy, but even going by your matchup table, it still offers very little support for PX's argument that picking Vlad into Poppy is asking to get rekt like Renekton or Riven, because Vlad isn't as bad of a pick against Poppy like her good matchups are, and Poppy is not even close to being one of worst champions to pick Vlad into. It looks like even in this small sample (because champion.gg's sample has too many plat plebs) that Poppy vs Vlad ends up about as well as Poppy vs Fiora (and all 3 have roughly the same overall Diamond winrate according to http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/)
So to answer PX's question of why people pick Vlad into Poppy, it's because on average you do good enough, with the worst case probably because playing Vlad mostly involves trying not to die and then turning into a certified-Rekkles-tier POWER MULTIPLIER player later in the game. This is in contrast to his examples of Renekton and Riven, which are in fact terrible champions to pick into Poppy.
I was more annoyed that you went full Sufficiency and pulled out irrelevant winrates and faulty datasets, just with the intention to hate on PX.
PX also never said that picking Vlad into Poppy was asking to get rekt, just that there are a couple meta champions that do a lot better versus Poppy in lane so he was wondering why they wouldn't just pick them.
From my own experience playing the Garen vs Vlad matchup a lot I can say that the matchup can definitely be won and that you're never in any danger of dying or going far behind in cs, so I can imagine that a champion with more sticking power, better harass and a better gapcloser can win the lane pretty hard.
And if we're really gonna argue with winrates, most Poppy players are noobs (percentually far more than for Vlad) so even having a 50% winrate with those noobs included means that the matchup is favored for Poppy.
On January 08 2016 05:56 dsyxelic wrote: you shouldnt randomly W heroic charges as vlad, I was just mentioning that for ganks or instances you're near a wall. if poppy heroic charges you into your minions you probably could just walk away while Q E ing. vlad should also never be close enough to a poppy that he can get ulted without getting gapclosed on by heroic charge.
I get that vlad shouldn't be able to outduel a poppy, but I don't see what stops him from safely farming besides maybe having to give up a few cs at times he doesn't have a Q vs passive.
also I know champion.gg isn't the end all be all, but it shows vlad's most favorable matchup as poppy with 57% winrate over 1300+ games. I think the matchup largely relies on vlad's fuck up than poppy doing anything so its no wonder most of soloq is having an easy time with that matchup.
I think you are selling an empty Heroic charge short with how much it does for poppy in the matchup it's really hard for vlad to get his first item without constant jungle help. and poppy can be tearing up your team while you try to farm up when poppy is teleporting around the map.
I also think Winrate =/= lane winrate. Vlad outscales poppy for teamfights, and poppy often struggles to close games on her own. which is why she has a 43% winrate overall. You'd maybe expect the winrate to be above the standard poppy winrate if vlad does so well where poppy is weakest.
1) Vlad can run MS quints perfectly fine, and has in the past 2) Vlad's winrate is also shit but against poppy it is Pretty Great, while Poppy's mediocre winrate is even worse vs Vlad 3) In Vlad vs Poppy, Vlad tends to have a greater gold lead in the laning phase and then it evens out a bit more over time
So maybe your results are true for you, where you personally do fine vs Vlad as Poppy, but your logic is terrible.
Welcome back PX to TL LoL.
1) Source? Explanation? Reasoning? Anything? 2) According to this: http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=top-matchup&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond poppy has a 49.5% winrate against Vladimir in about 500 games. 3) I don't think something as specific as gold leads is something you can really build on with a champion that has been reworked as recently as Poppy. According to champion.gg 94% of the people that played Poppy played her 15 games or less, so this doesn't say anything except that players learning a champion tend to do worse than experienced players.
Zess, your logic is fucking abysmal.
Perhaps you mistook me for arguing that Vlad counters Poppy, but even going by your matchup table, it still offers very little support for PX's argument that picking Vlad into Poppy is asking to get rekt like Renekton or Riven, because Vlad isn't as bad of a pick against Poppy like her good matchups are, and Poppy is not even close to being one of worst champions to pick Vlad into. It looks like even in this small sample (because champion.gg's sample has too many plat plebs) that Poppy vs Vlad ends up about as well as Poppy vs Fiora (and all 3 have roughly the same overall Diamond winrate according to http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/)
So to answer PX's question of why people pick Vlad into Poppy, it's because on average you do good enough, with the worst case probably because playing Vlad mostly involves trying not to die and then turning into a certified-Rekkles-tier POWER MULTIPLIER player later in the game. This is in contrast to his examples of Renekton and Riven, which are in fact terrible champions to pick into Poppy.
I was more annoyed that you went full Sufficiency and pulled out irrelevant winrates and faulty datasets, just with the intention to hate on PX.
PX also never said that picking Vlad into Poppy was asking to get rekt, just that there are a couple meta champions that do a lot better versus Poppy in lane so he was wondering why they wouldn't just pick them.
From my own experience playing the Garen vs Vlad matchup a lot I can say that the matchup can definitely be won and that you're never in any danger of dying or going far behind in cs, so I can imagine that a champion with more sticking power, better harass and a better gapcloser can win the lane pretty hard.
And if we're really gonna argue with winrates, most Poppy players are noobs (percentually far more than for Vlad) so even having a 50% winrate with those noobs included means that the matchup is favored for Poppy.
For that lolking statistic, shouldn't you have to compare it to Poppy's overall winrate first? I don't see where you can check that on the site (fuck lolking). The poppy vs vlad matchup there is significantly higher than the one champion.gg so the assumption is that players got better at reworked poppy.
according to this site, at diamond, poppy's overall top lane winrate is 52.5%. and if you look the winrate/ranked games played, doesn't seem like noob poppy players are bringing her down at all. And then the winrate vs vlad is 50%, around the same ball park as your lolking statistic. But if you compare it to her overall toplane winrate, it's not terrible but not that good either (it being a great matchup for poppy being the original claim made).
now it's not just statistics, obviously we should use some common sense to see the other matchups and see if the stats line up and it seems like it does.
there are a bunch of overlaps between the 'counter' champs on champion.gg and leagueofgraphs.com which make total sense.
Again you shouldnt look entirely at winrates to say it's a bad matchup. Vlad winning the game has little to do with poppy losing a lane or winning a lane. it's a great matchup for poppy in top lane. Poppy just doesn't win many games on her own, no matter the matchup, which means even if she wins lane, she's gonna have a hard time forcing the game to end in her favor. in the very meta "i pick this champ to win the game" then yeah i guess vlad isn't a miserable pick vs poppy, the way riven is. because vlad can win games from behind, unlike riven. but its certainly not a pick you choose to make your matchup in lane easy or to give the poppy a hard time in lane. Winning lane, especially top lane doesn't correlate as strongly with a won game as it did in the past.
Vlad can die 3 times in lane, and still get to the point where he wins the game 30-40 minutes in. It doesn't make it a good matchup for him just because he can do that. Poppy being weak at closing out a game means Vlad's team can hold off until vlad recovers from getting beaten in lane. It doesn't make poppy any less good at the matchup because the champ itself is bad at closing games post laning.
I mean it's just that for vlad in particular, his winrate is strongly correlated to how hard his laning phase is since he's a beast past that 10 or so minute mark based on how laning went. When I play vlad, the main question I ask myself before locking him in is "will I survive laning phase or not" since that's basically half of what decides whether you win or not. And for poppy, I do think I will generally survive laning phase even if it may be annoying. For guys like irelia wukong jarvan, I am not that confident that I can.
I think we just disagreed on the definition of 'bad matchup' then. I think it's a good matchup if vlad can reliably scale up and become useful no matter how annoying the laning phase is. poppy lacking the ability to snowball the lane into winning as reliably as wukong/jarvan/irelia is a big reason for why I consider the matchup not that bad for vlad.
but fair point. for comparison I often say lulu vs vlad is a bad laning matchup for vlad, but vlad is still a counter to lulu (well at least before pre-season for sure, idk if it changed now) because even if he gets harassed/loses some farm, its very hard to snowball that against him and he scales up to be stronger.
if thats what you're saying for poppy then yeah I agree. just a bit confused since you said you didn't know why people pick vlad into poppy. Picking a bad 'laning matchup' is totally fine if you know you can prevent the snowball and become more useful later.
Serious lack of hookers and blow, 0/10 not accurate.
I feel like they could have done a better job on the TSM Doublelift reveal at the end, like a CLG jersey switch into a TSM jersey, or something cool like that.
I like it. They are fine videos for what they are trying to do. I just wish they made hilarious and campy videos instead. Even OGN fails in this regard recently. I want a more campy/iconic theme, instead of "Creed LCS"
On January 09 2016 05:54 739 wrote: Goddamn NA LCS video is way, way better than EU one. I hate you Rito, so much bias.
It was better because it focused on building hype instead of trying to say we want you back when no one even left (talking about the fan base). Why would anyone (again fanbase) leave when EU had arguably its best split ever? Instead of moaning over who left, they should have built up the new folks.
Been out of the game since just around the time Kindred was released. Is there anywhere I can go to catch up on all the preseason changes/find out whats currently OP, or do I just have to go through all of the patch notes?
When in doubt go thunderlords + the penetration mastery. Along with pen runes.
Hp stacking tanks enjoy grasp of the undying mastery too
Other than that OP shit mostly revolves around that give sudden ridiculous bursts, early pen itemization snowballs, or abuse of all of them + stealth (rengar lol)
Interesting stuff to try out before they are nerfed or changed Rengar, Runes are obviously arpen runes + cdr + whatever AD you want. Starts with at least 17 armor pen at level1 1. Jungle, Skirmisher or the slow one works, ad+cdr, yomumu -> CDR boots -> RFC -> IE -> IE. Can also get an early sheen for other boots. 2. Jungle, Same as above, early tiamat before yomu. Basically whatever you need to oneshot the poor guy. Both rely heavily on early snowball. You can also consider getting a deadmans somewhere in there but I still think it delays the build too long 3. Tank Rengar top - Popular in korea. Sunfires, deadmans, yeah. Max W early. Be a goddamn unkillable bush terror. Get hex drinker early against mages, get TF when you really want to be the best of both worlds.
If the opponent takes my rengar i pick kindred/poppy/elise. All three can deal with rengar one way or the other. Itemization is key, although you generally want a lot of AP on elise while being tanky too. I prefer elise since shes one of the few who can snipe down Rengar in mid air, making for extremely satisfying kills. Obviously not applicable for tank rengars.
For kindred I go AS quints and arpen reds, exhaust instead of flash, usually duelist but also the occasional chilling smite. standard AD jungling item into a zeal upgrade, then see what happens from there. I have directly went for a frozen heart right after AD jungling item since the opponent team was completely AD assassin based, which allowed me to duel their fed talon easily.
Mundo - Go whereever you want. As tanky as possible. Consider getting the tank hydra for extra on hit. E resets autos now and he gains so much ad off of stacking HP items. can easily burst over 1k in a second with full build at almost 5k hp. Bullshit as hell.
Shyvanna - odd jungle build, get devourers, deadmans, and tank hydra. you can easily get sated at 14 minutes, clear is ridiculously fast. W>E>R>A>Q>Hydra combo. ridiculous amounts of burst, tanky as fck. Easily one of the most broken duelist after the three items. You cant outrun her, cant out duel her, cant kill her easily.
Really hidden OP - Karma jungle. Bset comboed with a lulu mid/top. Cancerous as fck. ganks are amazing, damage is amazing, poke is amazing, speed ups are amazing, survivability top notch errr what am I missing. just get the basic slow smite and get a frost queens claim early, then upgrade the jungling item. You dont benefit from the sheen passive early on, and karma's clear is already fast enough...not that Karma needs to farm the jungle anyways. After that anything built from NLR is good. Abyssal if needed.
You can tell Im a jungle main :/
Other notable really strong champs are Lissandra top, Quinn in general, anivia in general (gotta be good though), Miss Fortune in general, Graves jungle/top (up close and personal), Fiora top (in really, really good hands shes fucking broken as hell, like legit more broken than a fed riven)
Notable items are Frost Queens Claim (any AP or support can easily use this), boots of swiftness, Corrupting Potion, Yomumu giving 65 AD and 20 arpen now, updated versions of the AD/MR swords, updated Essence Reaver...generally most of the marksmen stuff. are interesting.
But honestly, it doesnt really matter. Push towers early, get objectives early, try to aim for the inhibs before 20 minutes and you win. Most games shouldnt last long if you focus on objectives now. I actually stopped before the Tahm Kench patch and came back a couple months later after the kindred patch, so Im not sure if the small baron was before or after. Either way, its interesting.
Been out of the game since just around the time Kindred was released. Is there anywhere I can go to catch up on all the preseason changes/find out whats currently OP, or do I just have to go through all of the patch notes?
Best <3
Precision/Thunderlords really op'd unless you heal/shield a lot, then go with the one that gives free resists with heals/shields.
Soraka, Janna, are op'd supports. Graves is good jungler, meh adc. MF is S-tier ADC with thunderlords. Lucian is 2nd best.
Been out of the game since just around the time Kindred was released. Is there anywhere I can go to catch up on all the preseason changes/find out whats currently OP, or do I just have to go through all of the patch notes?
Best <3
Precision/Thunderlords really op'd unless you heal/shield a lot, then go with the one that gives free resists with heals/shields.
Soraka, Janna, are op'd supports. Graves is good jungler, meh adc. MF is S-tier ADC with thunderlords. Lucian is 2nd best.
Still think alistar/tahm are the most broken supports tho...the amount of bullshit they can pull is ridiculous.
Well Rengar will still be a design monstruosity and Tahm Kench broken by design. People will still take TDL since it doesn't get nerfed to the ground and Precision alone would justify it over most stuff from the left tree, even post-nerf. I don't think the advice on Kindred or Quinn are affected either since neither them nor their items are targeted by the patch?
If you want to point out a strong champ that's gonna be nerfed, look at Trundle. Not that he's dead now I think, but snowballing with a longer ult cd is harder (20s is a lot early on if you look at it in a "20 more seconds to spend in lane before the all-in" and adding all the death timer+walking back to lane time) and Chomp not working on towers greatly reduces his ability to push (more or less depending if "doesn't work on towers" means it doesn't deal bonus damage and go on cd, or that he doesn't even get the bonus AD) since he's very bad at clearing waves to begin with. The Pillar nerf is probably hurting support Trundle more (which is a shame, his kit is the kind of non-streamlined stuff that makes inventive picks work, and I think Riot should be happier to see Trundle support than Lulu being a very strong solo laner for example).
TDL is absurd, but not as noticeable in the late game (after you generally get some MR, also HP from levels) as it is during laning imo. When every trade starts doing 60 HP more when you've only got ~700, you just die a lot faster, especially botlane. MF's nerf for example still lets E trigger TDL in around a second (iirc it ticks on cast then every 0.5s?) and force a trade off the slow and her passive MS, so she's still going to be very strong I think, although you'll stop maxing E all the way (it was already ridiculously strong pre-rework during laning due to the base damage, but with her being so unpopular you wouldn't know about it).
I went "wat" yesterday when a Poppy with Warrior and BC (and no stacks on me, nor ArPen runes) did 254 damage with only the first part of her Q. I was low so executioner factored in, and Brand with ~2k HP and ~80 armour at that point. I mean the whole "spammable 12% max HP" is obviously overtuned, but I didn't do the math on a single half of the ability, where 6% max HP actually beats the base damage differential (160 vs most abilities which hover around 240) as soon as you build an HP item (or have a naturally high pool).
Since you rose the Rengar question, even I as a rengar main think that he needs to be tuned a bit. My opinion though is that his damage should not be touched, since, its the only thing he has, however, the ability to apply this damage so easily can be reduced. For example I would take out the invisibility part of his ulti and compensate with more movement speed and/or bigger jump, so he still can smell/sense isolated targets hidden behind walls and bushes, he can still cross big distances to reach them, he can still probably jump on them most of the times, but they will have the time to prepare and react. So he will become like any other assassin who has to trick/outplay his way to the back lines
On January 11 2016 22:23 M2 wrote: Since you rose the Rengar question, even I as a rengar main think that he needs to be tuned a bit. My opinion though is that his damage should not be touched, since, its the only thing he has, however, the ability to apply this damage so easily can be reduced. For example I would take out the invisibility part of his ulti and compensate with more movement speed and/or bigger jump, so he still can smell/sense isolated targets hidden behind walls and bushes, he can still cross big distances to reach them, he can still probably jump on them most of the times, but they will have the time to prepare and react. So he will become like any other assassin who has to trick/outplay his way to the back lines
If they want stealth burst then they need to put in items that deal with stealth. They haven't done that and keep refusing to do so. The champion should be completely changed then as he'll always be a binary problem unless that happens.
On January 11 2016 22:23 M2 wrote: Since you rose the Rengar question, even I as a rengar main think that he needs to be tuned a bit. My opinion though is that his damage should not be touched, since, its the only thing he has, however, the ability to apply this damage so easily can be reduced. For example I would take out the invisibility part of his ulti and compensate with more movement speed and/or bigger jump, so he still can smell/sense isolated targets hidden behind walls and bushes, he can still cross big distances to reach them, he can still probably jump on them most of the times, but they will have the time to prepare and react. So he will become like any other assassin who has to trick/outplay his way to the back lines
If they want stealth burst then they need to put in items that deal with stealth. They haven't done that and keep refusing to do so. The champion should be completely changed then as he'll always be a binary problem unless that happens.
Yeah, somehow I meant the same thing. Overall, Rengar as it is now can be countered by many champs and compositions, so naturally his win rate is all right like 51% or something, however, his gameplay is really out of the league scope somehow, can't even explain it. So exchanging invisibility with other steroids like movement speed should make him adjustable. Another thing that can easily fix his and for that matter many other problematic champs gameplay will be the infamous voice communication, when you communicate slower (typing) than a champ abilities to make his moves is completely different from making teammates aware in under a second.
I personally experienced this many times playing ranked 5s, I can easily say when the other 5s have voice communication and when not. I am platinum and managed to abuse diamonds many times when they had no voice and often found very hard to find easy preys vs golds when they obviously communicated my map movements
I'm not sure it changes much. Kha'Zix would jump at people with his E when he was broken, and would get the EWQ-aa-Tiamat burst (maybe less, depends on your accuracy and speed because of his range) that would kill the target in less than a second. His W was specifically nerfed to not be castable during his jump because of this.
When Rengar jumps on someone, they die in less than a second. Even if you made his ult MS-based rather than invisibility-based, if he jumps at somebody from outside vision (bush, over a wall, long range flash+jump), he'll just kill them the same way. Now you're going to tell me that a fed LB or Katarina does the same, and that Anivia, Syndra, etc. even have cc and more range to make such an instakill happen. That's true, but either it requires the champion to be really fed, or the champion is problematic itself (hello Anivia's point'n'click numbers) so giving Rengar parity with them isn't a good solution for the game.
Moreover, for reasons pertaining to bruisers, an armour+AD/AS item doesn't exist, so while you can try and lessen the threat from LB with a Banshee's Veil or MoM for example, or a Mercurial Scimitar against Syndra, you forfeit a slot to a purely defensive item against a physical damage dealer like Rengar. And with the way he is, even Randuin's (on paper the single highest physical EHP item) isn't enough to survive if Rengar ults at you. And if you have to commit 2 defensive items before lategame just to survive him, the other team's marksman is going to plow through yours in comparison. Even for AP cores building Zhonya's, you'll usually take the damage from his leap before you trigger the stasis, which is easily between a third and half of your HP (more if he gets a crit), and you're a sitting duck for any long range finisher or if Rengar doesn't die by the time the stasis wears off.
Ideally, assassins should take longer to kill their targets. I preferred when for example Talon had his silence, because it didn't make him so weak against Ahri or LB (unless he can 100-0 them without taking the time for additional autos, and that case isn't desirable either), but it also meant that if your target had allies nearby, they could help instead, so the onus would be on you to find alone time with a squishy, either because there are no other enemies close, because they're distracted, or because they already spent their cooldowns, so you wouldn't be disturbed for the few seconds you need to do your job. Of course it's made a lot harder by the small map (and lanes) and the way teams group later on...
what you say is true by itself, however, if assassin such as rengar needs more time to kill he will become obsolete in most cases, I mean he has nothing else going on for him. Thats why I thought that taking out his invisibility should be good enough, because when he can find a target isolated it will be there own mistake and it will surely happen several times per game, nevertheless he won;t be able to do the same when the other team plays correctly enough, unless rengar;s team does not find a way to force them to make such mistakes. So rengar will either need team support and right compositions to be viable or dumb enemies. I personally dont approve balancing the game around retardness. The main issue now is that Rengar in a team of no feeding ass fools can always be oppressive and it almost does not matter what enemies do. If he is not a lot behind or if his team is not feeding like crazy everywhere, good rengar can always do his job regardless and this is not fine. However, one shoting someone behind a wall in a second or two, deep in their territories when they have real means to track you down is not a champion design flaw anymore IMO
On January 11 2016 23:35 nafta wrote: That's just not true. If rengar's ult wasn't invisibility based he wouldn't do shit in fights.
Not to mention how much easier 1v1s would be. They need to bring back red trinket. Dunno who the fuck decided it shouldnt reveal champs.
I don't think red trinked ever did something meaningful against Rengar. Sure there were cases where it worked but they were really few, It helped a lot with any other invisible champ, but Rengar you have to track before he is in red trinked range, because he will already jump on his target if he reached so close
I suggested this change on the forums and it got l a good amount of upvotes and it makes sense within riot's balance scheme.
Why is there not a global noise for rengar's "growl" when he actives his stealth for ult? he moves so fast with it + ghostblade once he gets it that it obviously wouldnt kill him, but at the same time you can't just activate your ult behind bot/mid tower repeatedly and pick up free uncounterable kills. There would be some level of planning and brainpower required to play him.
Pretty much every other ridiculous "global" spell besides shen ult has some sort of pre-cursor to it, why rengar's gives zero warning i have no idea.
This keeps his damage intact as well, I can't see any other way to nerf him that doesnt involve his damage.
On January 11 2016 23:50 VayneAuthority wrote: I suggested this change on the forums and it got l a good amount of upvotes and it makes sense within riot's balance scheme.
Why is there not a global noise for rengar's "growl" when he actives his stealth for ult? he moves so fast with it + ghostblade once he gets it that it obviously wouldnt kill him, but at the same time you can't just activate your ult behind bot/mid tower repeatedly and pick up free uncounterable kills. There would be some level of planning and brainpower required to play him.
Pretty much every other ridiculous "global" spell besides shen ult has some sort of pre-cursor to it, why rengar's gives zero warning i have no idea.
This keeps his damage intact as well, I can't see any other way to nerf him that doesnt involve his damage.
I thought about such solution, it will work but it will take big part of his identity/gameplay feel. Rengar will be never able to gank someone close to turret, he won't be able to run through whole enemy jungle to get someone separated in the enemy territories and he should be able to do this I think, otherwise, he will become just too straight and depraved from any tricky things in his gameplay. He should be traceable but when the enemies put some effort in it, not effortless like you suggest IMO
On January 11 2016 23:35 nafta wrote: That's just not true. If rengar's ult wasn't invisibility based he wouldn't do shit in fights.
Not to mention how much easier 1v1s would be. They need to bring back red trinket. Dunno who the fuck decided it shouldnt reveal champs.
I don't think red trinked ever did something meaningful against Rengar. Sure there were cases where it worked but they were really few, It helped a lot with any other invisible champ, but Rengar you have to track before he is in red trinked range, because he will already jump on his target if he reached so close
It did a lot of work vs rengar. It doesn't work only if he gets lulu w/zilean speed or some shit.
Considering how broken trundle is the nerfs aren't even much at all.
He'll still stay as strong in lane and in teamfights, but it'll be harder for him to snowball off a lead (like when they upped Riven's ult cd from 75s (!) or made it so a killing blow from Darius' ult gave a temporary window to recast and not a full cd refund), and to keep splitpushing if he's ahead (he won't kill towers nearly as fast with 40 less AD, half the aa resets and no bonus damage on turrets).
I wouldn't be too worried about Trundle anyway because his strength has always been more dictated by the meta than his own inherent power. Which is actually the mark of a good kit!
Pretty much agree with Alaric on the snowballing bit. I don't think he loses a significant amount of power though. Buffing the mana cost on E by 15 does next to nothing, by the time you start spamming it you have enough mana/mana5 for it not to matter. Buffing the CD might have been the better way to go here IMO.
The Q nerf honestly isn't that big. You can bite a minion to get your bonus AD (I'd like to see the duration nerfed a bit or something instead so you don't have a perma BF sword essentially). I usually build IBG on Trundle, but either way with your Sheen item you still kill turrets very fast when you've got Q buff, Sheen procs and W atkspd up. I'd ballpark this slows down your tower killing by... 10-20%? not too significant either way.
The ult nerfs make sense though. I've been a little annoyed I can't get really sick ults off because there are never any real tanks in my games to drain.
Maybe in combination everything is okay even if individually the nerfs are a little confusing to me.
While Thunderlord's Decree is the go-to mastery when you're looking to dominate your lane, we're leaving it as-is for a few reasons. First, we're looking to it as a 'goalpost' from which we balance the other keystones around. It's something you can easily play around, has a good amount of impact, and synergizes well with certain champion kits. Additionally, we're avoiding playing 'whack-a-mole' with the Keystones (ie: just nerfing whichever is best at any given moment). By recognizing TD's strength and matching others to it, we build a better ecosystem for Keystones where you're free to adapt your builds, rather than just playing champions that abuse the best mastery.
As much as I can see the "no whack-a-mole" pros, and it's something they've been criticised for a lot, the whole "TDL is easily played around" bit as a reason to keep it miffs me a bit. As is, it's actually warping, since if your longer ranged opponent gets a single hit on you you're not going to trade back, you'll just hav to zone yourself until the debuff disappears, or zig-zag their skillshots, because otherwise you're just giving them a big burst for free. It also means pot shots and harass is less significant since you get so much more for triggering TDL, but the timer for its stacks also makes these champs capable of very long range pot shots able to choose whether they want to try and damage you, or just throw something at random and if it hits, cool, now they're passively zoning.
I think it's their rule of 3 for their minigames: it's too easy to trigger something this way. If you'd rather have the DoT mastery for poke and stuff, then why not make TDL harder to trigger, so you actually have to commit to get that burst of damage? Especially for mages, they're gonna have to do a bit of autoattacking to get it off-and if you want your mastery to impact laning first, then needing to auto to complement your combo is actually something you're more likely to do in lane than during a teamfight where it may compromise your positioning.
There's so many ways to get the 3 hits off that it's just a little ridiculous. But on the other hand if Riot wants to make masteries impactful (I can agree with that design philosophy instead of nerfing whatever sticks out), they need to hurry up and buff the other ones and make the defensive ones have significantly more oomph as well.
I remember yesterday our MF had something like 600+ damage on her Q poke midgame with TDL + Energized. She wasn't even that fed.
To me, the fact that TDL triggers on 3 hits from either AAs or abilities is what makes it so strong. If it just triggered off AAs then it wouldn't be as OP and you wouldn't have people like MF or Lucian proccing it in .5s, leaving you basically no time to react to eating approx. 200-600 damage in the lane phase, depending upon items and level of course.
But if it triggered off AAs only then you'd need to increase the damage scaling from it most likely, and even then I don't think most ADCs would pick it and instead go 18/12 and grab Fervor (if the buffs go through on it) or the Deathfire one.
Not sure if I would touch Rengar damage. I feel like making Sterak's and Deadman's plate a more attractive option for ADC's might be the better route to take.
On January 12 2016 02:55 Kinie wrote: To me, the fact that TDL triggers on 3 hits from either AAs or abilities is what makes it so strong. If it just triggered off AAs then it wouldn't be as OP and you wouldn't have people like MF or Lucian proccing it in .5s, leaving you basically no time to react to eating approx. 200-600 damage in the lane phase, depending upon items and level of course.
But if it triggered off AAs only then you'd need to increase the damage scaling from it most likely, and even then I don't think most ADCs would pick it and instead go 18/12 and grab Fervor (if the buffs go through on it) or the Deathfire one.
I just think Keystone masteries were a nice theory but a failure in practice and most likely were always destined to be a failure. Masteries are never going to allow weird alternate ways to play the same person, they just going to be min/max stuff that everyone uses. Should just accept this.
On January 12 2016 03:06 Numy wrote: I just think Keystone masteries were a nice theory but a failure in practice and most likely were always destined to be a failure. Masteries are never going to allow weird alternate ways to play the same person, they just going to be min/max stuff that everyone uses. Should just accept this.
The only way to allow weird alternate ways through masteries would be to have them actually change the champions.
"your abilities that slow have their duration reduced by 1/2 (1/4 for AOE and 1/8 for damage over time), and now stun instead" or stuff like that. "your auto attacks deal no damage, instead they deal 3.5% of your targets max HP in true damage, this damage can crit"
Weird crap that totally alters a characters style. You'd still have people who min max stuff (like vayne with the second one for example), but you'd have SOME experimentation work out. Riot would never do that though. Keystones should probably be separate from the trees though You shouldn't be picking a keystone because you need the stats from earlier in the tree, you should be picking them because you want the keystone.
Rengar's Q is a monstrosity. And is the reason he's a nuisance. His kit is fine, he gets around wards, leaps around bushes, and has a snare in certain situations. but his Q, man. its a 4 second cooldown ability, that is used twice before going on CD, that deals as much damage as Garen's auto attack modifier, which has twice the cooldown, and no 2nd use of it, that is even more powerful.
If you took the attack speed from his empowered Q, and threw it onto is regular Q, and took away the bonus damage (so it just did 1.2 AD instead of 30-140+1.2AD or whatever). It'd both speed up his clear, and nerf his ganks. He wouldnt be 1 shotting nearly as much, but he wouldnt be hurting for cash because of the nerf either, since he could clear and take objectives better.
On January 12 2016 03:33 nafta wrote: It is pretty funny though been whining about rengar for fucking years at this point. Them buffing him with the new masteries certainly didn't help.
Rengar is just the height of Riot ignoring its own design philosophy. The only time he was ever "balanced" was when he was a jungler with terrible clear and bad ganks such that 3 teams, all with great junglers (Dandy, Kakao, Spirit) were successful with him and aside from that he was like 10%.
I hated Rengar for a really long time because of Caomei, but it was fun to watch DanDy/Spirit play it. Honestly I think I just liked Feral Flare as an item. The jungle items around that time seemed one of the better iterations.
On January 12 2016 03:33 nafta wrote: It is pretty funny though been whining about rengar for fucking years at this point. Them buffing him with the new masteries certainly didn't help.
Rengar is just the height of Riot ignoring its own design philosophy. The only time he was ever "balanced" was when he was a jungler with terrible clear and bad ganks such that 3 teams, all with great junglers (Dandy, Kakao, Spirit) were successful with him and aside from that he was like 10%.
I actually like where you started out with your first sentence. But I don't know how accurate second part is, I mean to say, I think even at his current strength it would take a pretty strong jungler to make him work in Pro play
the fact that he got buffed for ladder play is irrelevant, but I guess we'll see later this week.
On January 12 2016 03:33 nafta wrote: It is pretty funny though been whining about rengar for fucking years at this point. Them buffing him with the new masteries certainly didn't help.
Rengar is just the height of Riot ignoring its own design philosophy. The only time he was ever "balanced" was when he was a jungler with terrible clear and bad ganks such that 3 teams, all with great junglers (Dandy, Kakao, Spirit) were successful with him and aside from that he was like 10%.
I actually like where you started out with your first sentence. But I don't know how accurate second part is, I mean to say, I think even at his current strength it would take a pretty strong jungler to make him work in Pro play
the fact that he got buffed for ladder play is irrelevant, but I guess we'll see later this week.
Well, as usual, I'll say I only really care about pro play balance. But, to make a statement about ladder, Rengar reminds me of the Vanilla WOW/TBC Retribution Paladin, which was pretty much the dumbest class at that time because, based on RNG it could sometimes 1-shot people, but usually just was a rubbish DPS class that made uncoordinated teams and noobs really pissy; so it all had to be reworked. That's basically modern Rengar, with the caveat that his design is so dumb that you can't even tone down his damage and make him tankier and more sustained damege oriented thanks to his self-heal and manaless-ness lest he just becomes his old dumb infinite-laning infinite-splitpushing self.
yeah I saw that message alot when I had to report like every single game on my smurf for afk/ragequit/trolling/racism/etc.
I really feel for p1/d5 players. probably 80-90% of all my reports ever was from playing in that elo
though i've noticed it really only triggers reliably for racism/leaverbuster afk. otherwise it occurred far less often. ive never seen that trigger for the harder to detect ones though (ex. spam ping, threatening afk, fountain sitting, etc)
On January 12 2016 03:06 Numy wrote: I just think Keystone masteries were a nice theory but a failure in practice and most likely were always destined to be a failure. Masteries are never going to allow weird alternate ways to play the same person, they just going to be min/max stuff that everyone uses. Should just accept this.
What I want to know is what kind of multiple ways do they want people to play the same champ? Quite a few times when the community finds a new way to play a champ, it seems like Riot jumps to pound out that new way of playing unless that new way turns it into a support or jungle.
Yup, I only read his passive so far and my first reaction is "what is this garbled mess?"
Jhin’s crits deal less damage than normal, and his attack speed doesn’t actually scale with attack speed. Instead, Jhin gains attack damage from any attack speed and crit chance he earns through itemization and runes, while crits give him a burst of movement based on his attack speed.
Good job on that one.
Actually, I'd say it's contrary to what their goals of "broadening the selection of items" in the marksman update was, since giving AD out of AS and crit% is an artificial way of letting him build the standard items even though he's not supposed to play like, say, Caitlyn. But on the other hand it's entirely in keeping with what they did to Hurricane's and MF's ult, for example: force marksmen to build multiplicative stats by putting crit on every single item (bar BT and BotRK, which were nerfed and made unappealing at best, and Scimitar, which was buffed and already filled two niches) and by giving them more crit scaling so not maxing crit is a bad idea.
It's awful design, but eh, at least they're consistent this time. I can't say I'm hyped at all by his kit though.
No wonder who designed that champ if it crits on 4th hit with passive. Also reload mechanics same as Graves. + Invisible traps that slows + bouncing grenade + ult that might deal shitload of dmg, all depends on Jhin numbers.
On January 13 2016 04:40 Slusher wrote: to be honest I wish Graves worked that way, building attack speed items for the crit is a seriously FeelsBadMan situation.
Can't you run IE/Essence/Trinity for 60% crit and only pay for 15% attack speed? you also get the benefit of 40% cdr with that group, and yeah it's expensive, but you'd have to build the zeal anyway for the other crit items, so sitting on it longer doesn't hurt too bad.
So they have Caitlyn, their already existing sniper champion. They give her an update that doesn't do anything to fix her shitty situation, and then create an entirely new sniper champion just to give him a complex, probably OP as hell, kit? Makes sense.
On January 13 2016 04:41 nafta wrote: Looks pretty cool but dunno if we are even gonna see him played. All champs with this much shit in their kit always just get permd.
Which is funny since a long long long time ago they wanted to avoid all this convoluted stuff when it came to champs. Might as well start on that Invoker champ Riot lol.
On January 13 2016 04:41 nafta wrote: Looks pretty cool but dunno if we are even gonna see him played. All champs with this much shit in their kit always just get permd.
Which is funny since a long long long time ago they wanted to avoid all this convoluted stuff when it came to champs. Might as well start on that Invoker champ Riot lol.
Maybe one day they will fix their pet system and give us an actual champion with pets. Or maybe god forbid a champion with more than 4 abilities.
On January 13 2016 04:41 nafta wrote: Looks pretty cool but dunno if we are even gonna see him played. All champs with this much shit in their kit always just get permd.
Which is funny since a long long long time ago they wanted to avoid all this convoluted stuff when it came to champs. Might as well start on that Invoker champ Riot lol.
Maybe one day they will fix their pet system and give us an actual champion with pets. Or maybe god forbid a champion with more than 4 abilities.
We have Lee and Nid :D See, Rito knows what its doing.
On January 13 2016 04:41 nafta wrote: Looks pretty cool but dunno if we are even gonna see him played. All champs with this much shit in their kit always just get permd.
Which is funny since a long long long time ago they wanted to avoid all this convoluted stuff when it came to champs. Might as well start on that Invoker champ Riot lol.
Maybe one day they will fix their pet system and give us an actual champion with pets. Or maybe god forbid a champion with more than 4 abilities.
We have Lee and Nid :D See, Rito knows what its doing.
His ult looks amazing. I wonder if it actually zooms out each time you use it, and if it actually plays that music + voiceover.
On January 13 2016 04:20 Alaric wrote: But on the other hand it's entirely in keeping with what they did to Hurricane's and MF's ult, for example: force marksmen to build multiplicative stats by putting crit on every single item (bar BT and BotRK, which were nerfed and made unappealing at best, and Scimitar, which was buffed and already filled two niches) and by giving them more crit scaling so not maxing crit is a bad idea.
It's awful design, but eh, at least they're consistent this time.
They put crit on "every single item" bar BT and BotRK and Scimitar you say? Well they also didn't put it on Lord Dominik's Regards
Or Mortal Reminder
Or Death's Dance
Or Maw of Malmortious
Or Youmuu's Ghostblade
Or Sterak's Gage
Or Muramana
I count in total about twenty possible ADC items, not counting boots, seven of which have critical strike. And of those seven, they added crit to only Runaan's Hurricane / Essence Reaver (and Rapid Firecannon, I suppose, though it obviously didn't exist before). But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good ol'fashioned game design circlejerk.
Because Ghostblade, Muramana, Death's Dance, Sterak's and MoM are all items Riot tagged with the "we want marksmen to build this so they will build this."
They actually made changes to Ghostblade to make it more appealing to bruisers who wouldn't have to "waste money on the crit" and smoothing up the build path. Meanwhile, it went from situational if you were gonna all-in the midgame (Lucian and especially Graves) or play Twitch, to never played on quintessential marksmen (read that jungle Graves and top Quinn/Graves are different cases from a duo lane marksman). Death's Dance works on spells and has CDR, it's an item intended for physical casters. Sterak's wasn't designed for marksmen either, and how often do you see them build it? The high HP requirement to trigger it doesn't go too well with only building it too.
They upped the crit on Triforce and removed the AP/nerfed the AS, which was more useful for Jax or Irelia than for Lucian or Corki. They put crit on Essence Reaver and gave it that absurd "get unrelated bonuses for building more crit!" passive. They forced crit on Hurricane, an item which, while situational, was also core on crit-less builds (I'm not a fan of Kalista's passive and ult, but the way Rend warped her builds and allowed a marksman to naturally forego crit and still be viable was actually a big success imo... and something Riot visibly hated, since they forced crit on her too). They added Lifesteal to Scimitar so you can actually skip BT if you build it, giving you room for an additional crit item.
MoM is a situational defense-oriented item, the fact that it provides ArPen and spellvamp, that Hexdrinker isn't that effective on ADs, that it scales with further MR (like mercs?), should tell you enough about who it's intended for. It protects better than Scimitar against burst obviously but it's not the same utility.
Im just scared they'll nerf my poor elise when the fucking new ap jungle item makes her God Queen of the Universe or something. Holy hell I can only jack off to that early game burst in my dreams
Although, is it a good enough item for people to start buying it in other lanes again? seems like decent burst, along with a free smite damage
I dont really understand the hate on rengar tho...I main him and I dont even play him anymore since hes so easy to shut down. His early game is terrible and downright horrendous if he doesnt have 3+stacks ready at any given time. If he gets invaded early (level3-level5) hes useless throughout the entire game since he relies so much on snowballing both levels and items. Even if you dont manage to shut him down early, going even and grouping early screws him over too. Assassin rengar relies too much on catching people out of position early on.
The only thing I think is bullshit in his kit is probably the root. The damage, the stealth whatever are all normal on the stronger assassins in game atm.
Hey, I don't even play ADC. I don't care about marksman itemization. I'm just the TeamLiquid fact police reporting in to keep people like you honest. Your post is based off the premise that Riot added crit to "every single [marksman] item". In actuality they added crit to 2 out of roughly 20 pre-existing marksman items. Hence why I said, why let facts get in the way of your pre-conceived notions.
On January 13 2016 08:18 GrandInquisitor wrote: Hey, I don't even play ADC. I don't care about marksman itemization. I'm just the TeamLiquid fact police reporting in to keep people like you honest. Your post is based off the premise that Riot added crit to "every single [marksman] item". In actuality they added crit to 2 out of roughly 20 pre-existing marksman items. Hence why I said, why let facts get in the way of your pre-conceived notions.
I will say, that the majority of AD items that are not marksman items do not have crit. ever marksman core item emphasizes crit heavily, though you could argue they are marksman cores BECAUSE they emphasize crit. Ghostblade is a good counter example, its an item purchased by twitch and a couple people before marksman update, and they removed crit and now its mostly twitch and no one else. Deaths Dance for example, is best as an offensive item on the bruiser/fighter sub-type, rather than anything you'd want on a marksman, except maybe a novelty Urgot build (PD, Deaths Dance, Muramana, and take heavily reduced damage in duels)
An interesting direction Riot's going is having empowered autos essentially, ex. Vayne silver bolts, Kindred's whatever, RFC which synergizes a little too well with crit and rfc/shiv passive. The lucky crits/ poke is too strong
It's gotten to the point where marksmen really should be call critmen. or pokemen. Idk.
On January 13 2016 08:06 padfoota wrote: Im just scared they'll nerf my poor elise when the fucking new ap jungle item makes her God Queen of the Universe or something. Holy hell I can only jack off to that early game burst in my dreams
Although, is it a good enough item for people to start buying it in other lanes again? seems like decent burst, along with a free smite damage
I dont really understand the hate on rengar tho...I main him and I dont even play him anymore since hes so easy to shut down. His early game is terrible and downright horrendous if he doesnt have 3+stacks ready at any given time. If he gets invaded early (level3-level5) hes useless throughout the entire game since he relies so much on snowballing both levels and items. Even if you dont manage to shut him down early, going even and grouping early screws him over too. Assassin rengar relies too much on catching people out of position early on.
The only thing I think is bullshit in his kit is probably the root. The damage, the stealth whatever are all normal on the stronger assassins in game atm.
Sounds like you can't do the basic rengar combo if you think his damage isn't that high. Only talon can compare in fast burst to him.
Realistically the only reason people get items without crit is because there are no lifesteal+crit items and % arpen with crit. Also draven with ghostblade rush to oneshot kids and blue ez. Not sure what is happening with kalista haven't seen her much.
Jhin's ult looks to have a longer range than Caitlyn's ult range, so that's kinda bullshit. Why can't we just move his ult over to Cait's and have his ult be something else?
Without seeing numbers we don't know how the stuff scales. I think I like the 4 shot ammo system, and his W is literally a longer range Lucian Q. The lane phase for him looks like it'll be rough, but team fights will probably be him doing shit loads of damage so long as the reload time/animation isn't too long.
Edit:
Spitballing an idea out for a better Jhin ult: he marks them with a flower, dealing increased damage to the target over an increasing scaling duration (so like 4/8/12s at level 6/11/16). If the marked target is killed, the flower explodes in a AoE burst around them, dealing more damage if Jhin's the one who killed the marked target.
On January 13 2016 09:18 Kinie wrote: Spitballing an idea out for a better Jhin ult: he marks them with a flower, dealing increased damage to the target over an increasing scaling duration (so like 4/8/12s at level 6/11/16). If the marked target is killed, the flower explodes in a AoE burst around them, dealing more damage if Jhin's the one who killed the marked target.
On January 13 2016 09:18 Kinie wrote: Jhin's ult looks to have a longer range than Caitlyn's ult range, so that's kinda bullshit. Why can't we just move his ult over to Cait's and have his ult be something else?
Without seeing numbers we don't know how the stuff scales. I think I like the 4 shot ammo system, and his W is literally a longer range Lucian Q. The lane phase for him looks like it'll be rough, but team fights will probably be him doing shit loads of damage so long as the reload time/animation isn't too long.
Edit:
Spitballing an idea out for a better Jhin ult: he marks them with a flower, dealing increased damage to the target over an increasing scaling duration (so like 4/8/12s at level 6/11/16). If the marked target is killed, the flower explodes in a AoE burst around them, dealing more damage if Jhin's the one who killed the marked target.
Inverted old Poppy ult would be neat. Target someone, Jhin does no damage to anyone else until target dies, but jhin gains vision over the target and greatly increased range when attacking them Could even do something like grant 100% bonus armor pen or 50/65/80 or whatever.
Talking about facts while waving around a vague "marksmen item" to reach your arbitrary high number of 20 isn't necessarily the best way to make the discussion progress, though. I could just throw a bunch of names around with a role moniker but it wouldn't resolve anything.
BT has been nerfed and is basically only bought before 3rd item when a fed Draven or MF wants to have fun, BotRK has fallen off the face of the earth, PD isn't seen at all, ER is only the common choice because it provides better stats than IE as a 1st item while having a smoother build path and basically providing free capped CDR, so even if you aren't Lucian, Corki or Ezreal, why pass it up? You still sometimes get IE 1st because it'll be stronger at the 2-items timing (and stuff like Cait doesn't get much out of CDR outside of fringe W/E cases). Kalista and Kindred, who used to be able to get by without crit, can't not have it now.
Plus calling LW and its upgrades 3 different items is stretching it, they're the only %ArPen item with a very specific case for one variant over the other, considering they have the same stats. Or at this rate BC is also a marksman item, and Morello is a support item since it has the same stats as FQC, and void staff is a mage item even though you'll pretty much only build it on carries.
"Inverted Poppy ult" wouldn't work well on a carry I feel. It's basically an insurance that you're gonna destroy that guy who's trying to dive you, even on tanks just trying to stall you it'd be very effective and ensure you'd be 5v4 if an ally does the same. If you're ahead, such an ult means that as long as you team can prevent a Rengar from being pulled on you, it would be really really hard to shut you down.
On January 13 2016 11:33 Frolossus wrote: chest system sounds neat on paper but i really want to see what their solutions is for people that already have all the characters
as a player who owns all characters what I want more than anything is an authentication app for my phone, similar to blizzard.(basically the same thing) That shits worth a lot of my time or a stupid amount of money.
That new Jihn passive - feels like lol has really jumped the shark with that one. Why the fuck does a stat need to be changed into another stat, then you get bursts of that original stat with another condition, and so many layers of vague, unclear, interacting variables...
On January 13 2016 14:32 Faeny wrote: That new Jihn passive - feels like lol has really jumped the shark with that one. Why the fuck does a stat need to be changed into another stat, then you get bursts of that original stat with another condition, and so many layers of vague, unclear, interacting variables...
Can I be honest? I don't mind. As long as they utilize this kind of unique scaling to make him either a hypercarry or a 1-item timing powerspike type character. The only thing I don't like is his sound effects. But, if he is basically a weirdo Lucian-Graves-Cait mashup just give up Riot.
You guys have to remember that Rito mentioned in champion reveal that Jhin's attack range is AVERAGE at best, so he won't be a lane dominant champ, unless he have some bonkers numbers on his skills.
Also crafting and looting, LOL. Seems like Rito is going Valve's way and aims for more $$ income.
Edit : Also apparently Gypsy claims that he was oryginally designed for duo bot lane but he has a feeling it might be a mid lane champ too.
Apparently he can only move his blade around through Q and R, and the plan seems to be "have your blade near you -> E an enemy so you pass through them -> Q to hit them and get the increased damage", and you can W if they decide to stay here and trade with you. If you didn't push the wave too hard, then the blade will end up in the back of your opponent, forcing them to move around to prevent a quick Q from you. He's also more about stopping damage than sustaining it back, and in lane it's reliant on him actually hitting his Q.
See, apart from the %max HP damage spam, that's actually a kit that's both clear and simple, with depth to its usage, and W is easy to balance because of the levers (cost, duration, radius, possible cast time, or simply making the blade harder to move around so you're punished if you misposition/commit too deep and your allies end up needing the buff).
I also assume his blade will be harder to position properly than Orianna's ball, since with all the damage loaded onto it Riot can't afford to give it too short a cooldown. If you Q just to reposition the blade, you'll have to wait a bit before you can commit to a trade.
I mean obviously we complain a lot, but that is a legitimately terrible rework. Kept the most frustrating thing about him (his R) in the game and turned his Q and W into another generic 3 hit thing and they brought Jax's old E back into the game except its AOE?
Seems more like an olddate instead of an update, like shen went back to the stone age or something.
How is getting a shield when you use abilities and having less control over its activation more "skill intensive" then a shield you activate on reflex?
that just scratches the surface of the hypocrisy in this rework.
as a side note, looks strong. They kept everything that made shen really good and gave his bad abilities more hidden power
Edit - Say hi to morgana/shen + hypercarry btw, Cant hit with spells or auto attacks HURRDURR
Their own fucking highlight text is "we wanted to give Shen and his opponent more things to do and think about during each game". I mean, okay. Make his old W apply the shield if he takes damage in the next 1 second, you know, like a feint. make his Q a skill shot. Boom, now he has more to think about and so his his opponent, he also has more to do, and doesn't lose depth. Yes his depth was subtle, but it still was there. Now it's very blunt, very shallow. a big puddle instead of a deep well. Instead of "well this is a hard matchup, so i'll need to use my Q for it's healing, and feint exactly the right ability, and preferably do so during an auto attack so i get the passive bonus" it's "well i guess i'll make myself immune to auto attacks when they go in and then pull my sword to me afterwards to block their next attacks and when they retreat use my E" Oh, and what if the matchup is bad? well i guess i'll make myself immune to auto attacks when they go in, then pull my sword to me for the shield and trade back and retreat with my E" Yeah that's totally something new to think about.
Giving a character a bunch of different sized and shaped clubs doesn't make a character more deep riot. they still are bashing something with a club over and over.
His Q is binary as well. Either it's dangerous enough that an opponent will back off from him if they can't trade with abilities vs it, resulting in a passive lane, or it's weak enough that his opponent will just trade through it and be fine, and never care about the positioning ignoring it completely. that'll make balancing it a nightmare.
Wait so they're giving a support an ability that makes his ADC dodge all autos? That seems pretty broken for laning lol. His new Q seems really clunky, although I guess when we see numbers it'll probably end up in such a way that even if you dont hit Q you can still outtrade with just the %max HP autos.
His old Q had some neat interactions with other champions, but ultimately it was basically a point-and-click damage ability with some bells and whistles attached.
His new Q is an auto attack steroid with some bells and whistles attached.... riot plz.\
Old: point and click damage, has 2 different ways to heal, whether you kill with it for a small burst heal, or follow up with attack to heal more over time.
New: Auto attack steroid, even more of a steroid if you play the mini-game and pass it through the opponent.
Old one had choices to be made about its use, new one has a clear best use and a clear failed use.
Welcome to LiquidLegends, where no one knows what the fuck we're talking about, except that we all know that every new thing from Riot is literally garbage all the time.
On January 14 2016 04:18 VayneAuthority wrote: I mean obviously we complain a lot, but that is a legitimately terrible rework. Kept the most frustrating thing about him (his R) in the game and turned his Q and W into another generic 3 hit thing and they brought Jax's old E back into the game except its AOE?
The fact that you wanted Riot to remove Shen's ultimate makes me really glad you aren't in charge of reworks. What the shit would be the point of Shen without his most defining ability? May as well rework Twisted Fate to remove his ultimate too.
I don't really care about the balance of the champion, that's all workable based on numbers, and damage type, and scaling. The biggest problem is the retardation of making a floating weapon based champ, that has minimal interaction with the actual fucking ability. >.>
Like, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball.
What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword?
I think riot has forgotten how to make simple, elegant champs and is doing all this weird shit to compensate now. There's the occasional cool skill or champ but riot seems like they want champs to be played in very specific ways now instead of letting the players innovate.
On January 14 2016 04:30 wei2coolman wrote: I don't really care about the balance of the champion, that's all workable based on numbers, and damage type, and scaling. The biggest problem is the retardation of making a floating weapon based champ, that has minimal interaction with the actual fucking ability. >.>
Like, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball.
What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword?
I assume they tried to tie Shen in with irelia. even though Irelias technique of the floating blade is supposed to be foreign to Ionia, and known only by her dead father. This also changes the way Zed's story works, he trained alongside Shen and used many of the same techniques, he now uses none of them, despite him not relying on the shadow technique heavily when he fought shen initially.
I guess they sort of swapped ki strike to be an active (although not based on your hp now) with his w. I think my only complaint is that this new Q is based on opponent HP instead of your own hp, hard to say without numbers but the current setup allows you to do a lot of burst damage to squishies you taunt successfully, which I think is rewarding gameplay.
hard for me to be objective since I hate reworks on principal, as well as think some point and click is healthy for the game.
There wasn't really that choice with og Shen Q: if you kill a minion with it, it's usually because it's either at range and you can't afford to walk up to it, or you're last hitting another minion and you need Q to last hit that one because you don't have enough AS. If you had the choice of last hitting a minion or Q+hit another to get more sustain, the best choice is almost always to simply hold onto your Q to harass your opponent if he's in range instead.
And yeah, removing Shen's R when it fills a specific niche would be dumb, I'd rather see Shen's character reworked so he's not a ninja anymore than his R removed. W is super short (about 2 seconds?) and said to have a cd such that even lategame you won't get to cast 2 in a teamfight. The radius is pretty wide, but if you can cc the target or walk out of the zone as it's cast then it won't do too much. It also won't protect you from LeBlanc or Syndra.
It's actually closer to current Jax E too, because it's 100% dodge for a fixed duration, and not a variable dodge% that's always on.
As for the support part, if the sword is wherever you put your Q, then if you want to cover your marksman with it you'll either have to Q near him, or have him walk toward you if you're engaging so you cast QW after you land your taunt. The repositioning having downtime with Q's cooldown (and the cost of wasting the steroid if you only reposition without having somebody to hit), and the fact that you can't make it follow you (like Orianna can pick up her ball) means there are avenues to prevent getting all the Q and W bonuses at once in a duo lane, or make it hard/situationnal enough that it feels like a reward.
Sure, he's broken since he just got reworked so he's gonna be overtuned, but I feel like design-wise, it's not that bad, and there are reasonable levers in place to put it in a better place once released.
On January 14 2016 04:30 wei2coolman wrote: I don't really care about the balance of the champion, that's all workable based on numbers, and damage type, and scaling. The biggest problem is the retardation of making a floating weapon based champ, that has minimal interaction with the actual fucking ability. >.>
Like, Ori has a ball. All her abilities are based on her awesome ball. The entire champion makes sense around the idea of a floating ball.
What the hell does a Ninja have to do with a mystical sword?
I'm not going to try an defend the thematics, though. The fact that he's got some mystical element he can use to play around doesn't bother me, but the whole "special link with a blade remotely controlled" was supposed to be Irelia's thing whenever Rioters talk about how they'd like to remake her kit, so with that being addressed by Shen now, it seems weird.
On January 14 2016 04:37 Slusher wrote: I guess they sort of swapped ki strike to be an active (although not based on your hp now) with his w. I think my only complaint is that this new Q is based on opponent HP instead of your own hp, hard to say without numbers but the current setup allows you to do a lot of burst damage to squishies you taunt successfully, which I think is rewarding gameplay.
hard for me to be objective since I hate reworks on principal, as well as think some point and click is healthy for the game.
Point and click is a necessary balance. It's the main counter to high mobility.
List of Point and click damage with bells and whistles attached;
Old Shen Q, Brand E, Akali Q, Anivia E, Annie Q, Caitlyn R, Cassio E, Cho'Gath R, Darius R, Elise Q (both), Gangplank Q, Garen R, Janna W, Kass Q, Kayle Q, Kha'zix Q, Leblanc Q, Lulu E, Malphite Q, Malz E, MF Q, Ryze W, Swain Q and E, trist E, Vik Q, Vlad Q, WW Q, Yorick E.
Apparently all these abilities are boring and should be replaced by a minigame.
On January 14 2016 04:44 Alaric wrote: There wasn't really that choice with og Shen Q: if you kill a minion with it, it's usually because it's either at range and you can't afford to walk up to it, or you're last hitting another minion and you need Q to last hit that one because you don't have enough AS. If you had the choice of last hitting a minion or Q+hit another to get more sustain, the best choice is almost always to simply hold onto your Q to harass your opponent if he's in range instead.
And yeah, removing Shen's R when it fills a specific niche would be dumb, I'd rather see Shen's character reworked so he's not a ninja anymore than his R removed. W is super short (about 2 seconds?) and said to have a cd such that even lategame you won't get to cast 2 in a teamfight. The radius is pretty wide, but if you can cc the target or walk out of the zone as it's cast then it won't do too much. It also won't protect you from LeBlanc or Syndra.
It's actually closer to current Jax E too, because it's 100% dodge for a fixed duration, and not a variable dodge% that's always on.
As for the support part, if the sword is wherever you put your Q, then if you want to cover your marksman with it you'll either have to Q near him, or have him walk toward you if you're engaging so you cast QW after you land your taunt. The repositioning having downtime with Q's cooldown (and the cost of wasting the steroid if you only reposition without having somebody to hit), and the fact that you can't make it follow you (like Orianna can pick up her ball) means there are avenues to prevent getting all the Q and W bonuses at once in a duo lane, or make it hard/situationnal enough that it feels like a reward.
Sure, he's broken since he just got reworked so he's gonna be overtuned, but I feel like design-wise, it's not that bad, and there are reasonable levers in place to put it in a better place once released.
I don't think his new Q and W are problems. Just that they'd be better served on a new champ.
Like new poppy. I love new poppy. but if the kit was on a new champ (maybe the dude she got the hammer from), it'd be better. and the poppy rework should have been closer to old poppy.
These new shen abilities are fucking terrible for shen. they aren't bad in a vacuum though. Add to that the totally made up and BS reasoning (at least i hope its made up, and they aren't that bad truly). and it's easy to see why its a bad rework. Those abilities SCREAM i want to make a new champ, but i got assigned to a rework.
Other abilities that would have fit the theme and worked better on a new champ with the new Q and W: and E where it spins the sword around champ at moderately quick speed (800-1100 units), blocking any skillshot that hits it and dealing minor damage to anything it passes through. an ult that lets you command the sword to attack a target on its own, Draining the life from the target and healing the champ. Maybe the sword gains an increasing fraction of the champs Attack speed as you rank it up.
Shit you want a theme for the champ, how about a noxian swordsman who always fought along side his brother, always having eachothers backs, until a battle against Azir's forces that caused his brother to become trapped in his sword. new champ continues to fight along side his bro, but in a new way filled with grief and self blame for his mistake, vowing to become stronger to make up for it, in true noxian fashion. his splash art could be him standing back to back with the sword, and a faint outline of his brothers spirit wielding it.
So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game.
On January 14 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote: So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game.
and his W is literally Ekko W, except it triggers off allies, and just provides dodge change instead of a shield/ enemy stun.
On January 14 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote: So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game.
and his W is literally Ekko W, except it triggers off allies, and just provides dodge change instead of a shield/ enemy stun.
and his E is literally Rammus E, except he can hit multiple targets, and doesn't last as long, and is a skillshot instead of targeted, and is a dash, and costs energy instead of mana, and restores energy on Q/W.
On January 14 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote: So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game.
Somewhere, Xin Zhao cries thinking of his old glory.
On January 14 2016 05:11 nafta wrote: Don't see what does shen w have to do with ekko w except that it is a fucking circle. You can't even aim it...
a bubble you set up in advance that triggers when someone walks into it giving a defensive benefit. They clearly have the same base-skill. with similar purposes. Ekkos has a stun attached. It's like how kat Q and brand R are the same spell, but have different cast times, ranges, damage values, and buffs they apply.
On January 14 2016 04:28 GrandInquisitor wrote: Welcome to LiquidLegends, where no one knows what the fuck we're talking about, except that we all know that every new thing from Riot is literally garbage all the time.
On January 14 2016 04:18 VayneAuthority wrote: I mean obviously we complain a lot, but that is a legitimately terrible rework. Kept the most frustrating thing about him (his R) in the game and turned his Q and W into another generic 3 hit thing and they brought Jax's old E back into the game except its AOE?
The fact that you wanted Riot to remove Shen's ultimate makes me really glad you aren't in charge of reworks. What the shit would be the point of Shen without his most defining ability? May as well rework Twisted Fate to remove his ultimate too.
He didnt need a rework unless his R was what you were planning to rework. If i was in charge I wouldn't have reworked him to begin with.
You are one of the biggest riot apologists on this site though so not surprised
On January 14 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote: So, basically, his Q is Ori E that you can't cast on teammates? And gives you a shield through passive and an auto steroid? Because if that's the case he has no harassing tools, basically making him the most all-in champion in the game.
Somewhere, Xin Zhao cries thinking of his old glory.
Xin's R is a potential disengage. I guess you can kind of kite and reengage with shen kind of like you do with Ekko shadow, but his Q (aka his damage) seems almost impossible to position correctly unless you have E'd onto your target; If it works how it seems to work. You can certainly color me confused about his whole new design. Obviously he will probably be good at defending against trades within his own minion lines because hitting Q then Wing away the damage should be easy when your going backwards, but his aggressive trading pattern seems pretty limited to E>Q>W>walk away.
Could be good, pro play he will probably be played exclusively defensively and balanced pretty similarly to he is now, as an herbivore.
On January 14 2016 05:33 JimmiC wrote: I think it's funny how much rage and sadness comes out whenever a rework comes, with screams of useless or op or crappy. Maybe lets at least play a game or two before everyone grabs their pitchforks. Let us not forget how often these theory crafting circle jerks of hate are wrong or even completely backwards.
Like I said, I really dislike the rework on just a pure character design basis. Balance is almost always achievable with number changes.
On January 14 2016 05:33 JimmiC wrote: I think it's funny how much rage and sadness comes out whenever a rework comes, with screams of useless or op or crappy. Maybe lets at least play a game or two before everyone grabs their pitchforks. Let us not forget how often these theory crafting circle jerks of hate are wrong or even completely backwards.
Like I said, I really dislike the rework on just a pure character design basis. Balance is almost always achievable with number changes.
I think his Q being the focus of his damage means he'll be real hard to balance as a pure melee with no backup plan.
On January 14 2016 06:19 JimmiC wrote: In other news I think the really need to lower the threshold for those honor badges I can't think of the last time I saw one. If they were at all present they might actually remind people of the initiative. Or even better something more than a badge for encouragement.
they are essentially all on normals and co op players only. because as it turns out, everyone has their moments for being a dick in ranked.
There's no "threshold", it's basically "are you in the top X% of players for these categories in the last Y weeks" or something along these lines. But yeah, to get a steady stream of honor points, especially the "helpful" ones, it's about spamming co-ops and being positive and friendly and stuff, especially if there are lower level/new people that you can impress or help.
EPT
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