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On November 10 2015 01:45 Frolossus wrote:
mejais sometimes gets picked up on certain supports. sword of the occult doesn't
For me Sword of the occult was very important to my game plan or game play.
I play assassin type of top laners like rengar, panteon even master yi with fighting summoner - ignite or exhaust. I rely on winning the lane then getting SOTO and start roaming.
Usually even successful roaming without SOTO puts you behind the enemy top laner who safely farms with TP, however, with SOTO the stacks you gain compensate for the missed CS and experience, but you also helped your team a lot.
Its high risk high reward strat, a bit cheesy, but inst things like that what makes the game more interesting and not stale?
The point is that there is no need to remove stuff if the only reason is that its not used a lot. If something is not considered toxic or problematic, then leave it, so some niche strats can appear, there is no need for everyone to do the same optimal set up. At least this is what I think
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I think Mejai's and soto should both be gone, but hey, at least one has actual use cases that aren't "buy when you'd win the game anyway."
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On November 10 2015 02:13 Caiada wrote:
I think Mejai's and soto should both be gone, but hey, at least one has actual use cases that aren't "buy when you'd win the game anyway."
But why something that is not problematic or toxic should be removed, even if its used 1% of the time, still people may come up with fancy ideas for it. For example I developed a whole anti TP top strat around the SOTO item, whats the downside of things like that?
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They don't serve much a purpose since the suicide Singed strat was destroyed.
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Logical design. I don't think Mejai's and SotO are that terrible for this, but the most obvious was old Zeke's Herald. It's psychology. If you give one hundred people an option in a game, especially one that looks appealing, a majority will try it. The problem is old Zeke's Herald was shit no matter how good it looked, so it should be removed. So it creates a weird situation where you're baiting people into doing something stupid. And then it gets worse when the player either doesn't have enough information to know it's stupid (uptime on Zeke's aura was horrible to judge and real bad in general; lifesteal is a stat that's hard to value.) or there are other factors interfering like team comp, other build choices, and so on. Because it's really hard to judge items that aren't just mathematically better, the use cases for all your items should really be as clear as possible. Not obvious, but clear. People think this removes choice or diversity but otherwise people either build dumb shit because your design led them to believe it wasn't dumb or they just build the same stuff over and over because they know it works and the rest of your crap didn't.
That's probably not very clear, but maybe it makes some sense.
In the two stacking items' case, they're obviously intended for assassins, but the moment you're behind on one, you shouldn't have that item. They're actually way better for poke champs and supports, which isn't obvious because neither naturally get tons of kills. Playing with risk when the game is more team-focused than ever and you're only one moving part out of five seems terrible just looking at it.
They then made Mejai's great for champs that want to roam immediately, so I don't fuckin' know. It's Riot being Riot and they really hate AD assassins, I guess?
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On November 09 2015 15:03 droserin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 14:26 Volband wrote:
Why did Lyte say not many people are getting carried now in duo queue, when it is known, that DQ is weighted in the current system? I thought they said they'll won't weight premades in dynamic queues, they'll just try to match them with a team having the same amount of premades, but they won't receive an MMR penalty unlike DQ-ing people now.
Also, premade 4s are not talked about at all. Not sure how Lyte thinks giving the solo players ultimate report power will solve toxicity. There must be an USA weapon law comparison there, but let's just say I don't believe fighting fire with fire in this case is beneficial for anyone, That's a different thing. The mmr penalty for matchmaking a duo queue is because it assumes a duo is more coordinated than 2 solos, so they should face slighter better players. Lyte is claiming that there aren't many people who are ranked a lot higher than they should be because they duo with good players who carry them every game.
Which seems strange that they can know. People who duo a lot will have MMR that you cannot disambiguate between.
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On November 10 2015 02:46 Caiada wrote:
Logical design. I don't think Mejai's and SotO are that terrible for this, but the most obvious was old Zeke's Herald. It's psychology. If you give one hundred people an option in a game, especially one that looks appealing, a majority will try it. The problem is old Zeke's Herald was shit no matter how good it looked, so it should be removed. So it creates a weird situation where you're baiting people into doing something stupid. And then it gets worse when the player either doesn't have enough information to know it's stupid (uptime on Zeke's aura was horrible to judge and real bad in general; lifesteal is a stat that's hard to value.) or there are other factors interfering like team comp, other build choices, and so on. Because it's really hard to judge items that aren't just mathematically better, the use cases for all your items should really be as clear as possible. Not obvious, but clear. People think this removes choice or diversity but otherwise people either build dumb shit because your design led them to believe it wasn't dumb or they just build the same stuff over and over because they know it works and the rest of your crap didn't.
That's probably not very clear, but maybe it makes some sense.
In the two stacking items' case, they're obviously intended for assassins, but the moment you're behind on one, you shouldn't have that item. They're actually way better for poke champs and supports, which isn't obvious because neither naturally get tons of kills. Playing with risk when the game is more team-focused than ever and you're only one moving part out of five seems terrible just looking at it.
They then made Mejai's great for champs that want to roam immediately, so I don't fuckin' know. It's Riot being Riot and they really hate AD assassins, I guess?
Zeke's would be so hilariously good with Kalista though.
Rango's Bonetooth is still pretty much SoTO. Kinda going with Riot's "build to your strengths" design, it might make sense on him to get insane scaling from kills.
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im tilted while watching adc changes.
quinn is going to be tier 1 top laner.
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On November 10 2015 05:10 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 02:46 Caiada wrote:
Logical design. I don't think Mejai's and SotO are that terrible for this, but the most obvious was old Zeke's Herald. It's psychology. If you give one hundred people an option in a game, especially one that looks appealing, a majority will try it. The problem is old Zeke's Herald was shit no matter how good it looked, so it should be removed. So it creates a weird situation where you're baiting people into doing something stupid. And then it gets worse when the player either doesn't have enough information to know it's stupid (uptime on Zeke's aura was horrible to judge and real bad in general; lifesteal is a stat that's hard to value.) or there are other factors interfering like team comp, other build choices, and so on. Because it's really hard to judge items that aren't just mathematically better, the use cases for all your items should really be as clear as possible. Not obvious, but clear. People think this removes choice or diversity but otherwise people either build dumb shit because your design led them to believe it wasn't dumb or they just build the same stuff over and over because they know it works and the rest of your crap didn't.
That's probably not very clear, but maybe it makes some sense.
In the two stacking items' case, they're obviously intended for assassins, but the moment you're behind on one, you shouldn't have that item. They're actually way better for poke champs and supports, which isn't obvious because neither naturally get tons of kills. Playing with risk when the game is more team-focused than ever and you're only one moving part out of five seems terrible just looking at it.
They then made Mejai's great for champs that want to roam immediately, so I don't fuckin' know. It's Riot being Riot and they really hate AD assassins, I guess? Zeke's would be so hilariously good with Kalista though. Rango's Bonetooth is still pretty much SoTO. Kinda going with Riot's "build to your strengths" design, it might make sense on him to get insane scaling from kills.
Zekes was really amazing for a lot of AD's. The issue with Zekes wasn't that it wasn't gold efficient or strong (when you get it it can be between 5 to 10% more DPS for your ADC, plus the lifesteal which is great at that point).
The issue with Zekes was that you couldn't buy it; it had 1600 gold of dead space in the build order on an item which, because its power was in the aura, only supports could afford to purchase.
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Ghosting Through this Thread was fun, the anti-rito drama was out of control lol.
Quinn is going to be the biggest question mark in the new changes - we'll see how good she ends up. I agree with Rito that she should be mid, but the question will be how the hell does she get waveclear. Shes a TF with more mobility and damage but much worse waveclear. We'll see
Zekes was bad because the stats were awful on supports before the changes and its optimization case was All over the place. Esp when you're comparing it to something with more ubiquitous utility like Crucible or Talisman on the smallest budget in the game. New Zekes does what Old Zekes was supposed to do but is obvious in how it does it.
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Zekes was also bad because lifesteal is typically bad on 4/5 of the characters on your team. I had a post many moons ago that showed and counted the autos of characters in teamfights, and other than the ADC it was typically 2-3 autos even for AD characters like renekton, talon and jax.
I havent done this with the new toplane meta, but that was changed after zekes, so its not really relevant.
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I would argue, that if you're primarily a peel support, even if the stats aren't the most efficient for you, the ability to add more multiplicative power stats to your AD outweighed the downsides even when you didn't have many/any else who could make use of it. That is, the 1000 gold or so of stats for your AD would be worth more due to their higher scaling than 1600 gold of stats for yourself.
But you still couldn't sit on the cash to buy it even then.
edit: Just realized this is the preseason thread. So enough about that.
I think the new masteries are better. Not ideal maybe, but definitely better
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I'm hoping that Riot will fix some of the new Champion Select bugs and visuals cause it looks promising. Also waiting for queue screen is pimped up as well.
+ Show Spoiler +
Cull
450 gold
+5 Attack Damage
+3 Life on Hit
UNIQUE Passive: Killing a minion grants 1 additional gold. Killing 100 minions grants an additional 300 bonus gold immediately and disables this passive.
This item, don't know what to think about it.
Edit : Also jesus, there are so many changes it masteries/champions/items that I just can't keep up ;o
Death's Dance
3400 Gold
+65 Attack Damage
+10% Cooldown Reduction
UNIQUE Passive: Dealing physical damage heals for 12% of the damage dealt. (33% effectiveness for multi-target effects.)
UNIQUE Passive: 12% of damage taken is dealt as a Bleed effect over 3 seconds instead.
I like it, on paper.
Also new "Eye" items, good or bad?
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On November 10 2015 14:02 Goumindong wrote:
I would argue, that if you're primarily a peel support, even if the stats aren't the most efficient for you, the ability to add more multiplicative power stats to your AD outweighed the downsides even when you didn't have many/any else who could make use of it. That is, the 1000 gold or so of stats for your AD would be worth more due to their higher scaling than 1600 gold of stats for yourself.
But you still couldn't sit on the cash to buy it even then.
edit: Just realized this is the preseason thread. So enough about that.
I think the new masteries are better. Not ideal maybe, but definitely better
Eh, not really, because in most cases for supports you can translate that amount of gold right to your ADC just buy building a selfish item. Just looking at Janna, a NLR, is worth 3.6% slow, 42 HP, 6 AD, and 30 HP/S(aoe) ignoring damage, just for your AD.
But you appear confused or something, the point is old, old zekes was bad because AOE lifesteal is more worthless than AOE spellvamp in a 5 vayne comp in 9.999999/10 scenarios.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Mhm, damn. Gotta have Plat4 border unfortunately, season ended up with me being in promos >.<
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I made D5 on my main like 3 months ago, after that I only played one game on it every other week in order to keep my lp from decaying. Can't wait to be able to use it again :p
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season officially ended? I thought it will tonight after midnight or something
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On November 10 2015 20:51 M2 wrote:
season officially ended? I thought it will tonight after midnight or something
I mean I can't play till tommorow so it ended for me >D
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On November 10 2015 15:16 739 wrote:
Also new "Eye" items, good or bad?
FotM and Talisman's actives are too good to sacrifice IMO. Eye of Watchers is good on Spellthief supports if you dont plan to swap into FotM/Talisman later.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yC-msYSXW5M/Vjl5KMqaJjI/AAAAAAAA0As/bS6ACX6lO4M/s640/done.jpg)
