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Uldridge
Belgium5232 Posts
Previous mastery tree had 3 panels which each had a moderate amount of diversity. I use moderate since some choices were obviously better than others (who was going to choose Thick Skin for example) But here you have a system that's drastically reduced in complexity and diversity and you have to devote less points in one of the three panels. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On November 08 2015 07:25 Ketara wrote:Because it's a better system  Ketara pls. New system gives way less meaningful choice till the 18th point of the tree, it completely shafts anything that wants to be tanky plus the choices you do have to make don't make any sense at all. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Especially since I've taken the time to do the same. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On November 08 2015 19:19 Ketara wrote: I feel like if you want to have this discussion Fildun, you should do it with examples and analysis instead of blanket statements. Especially since I've taken the time to do the same. Yeah I probably should. Alright, my main complaint is that they made everything that's not the 18th point almost not matter at all. Let's take a look at the first tree. First choice is between 4% attackspeed and 2% increased spell damage. 4% attackspeed is almost completely negligible. You might miss one creep less during the entire laning phase because of it, but that's about it. For junglers you might take one less auto from a camp, but you also might not. The 2% increased spell damage is nice for mages but it's still not all that significant. Now comes the first one point choice. Feast just straight up sucks balls, so everybody is going to take Double-edged sword here. Such choice. Wow. Next up is lifesteal/spellvamp vs scaling ad/ap. Obviously the lifesteal/spellvamp is better for laning and probably also for bruisers in teamfights while the ad/ap is the best option later in the game for mids and ADC's, since they are either at full HP, backing or dead most of the time, so the lifesteal/spellvamp isn't really that useful there. Neither of these options really have a "wow" feel to me, nor are they that impactful (again). Also note that Vampiricism is just straight up a better Feast. Now we have Bounty Hunter vs Oppressor. Bounty Hunter is just straight up a win harder mastery, if the damage from this mastery becomes relevant you'll most likely win anyway. Oppressor is nice for laning with Braum or playing with CC-heavy teams, but if you're in a team with little CC both of these options just suck. Example: Say I'm playing Garen. I'm pretty sure I want 18 in Ferocity, but both of these options do absolutely nothing for me. Next up: Armpen vs magicpen, pretty straightforward, probably the best designed choice in the tree. Now for the 18th point, mages are gonna take Deathfire Touch and all the AD champions are gonna take Fervor of Battle. Maybe some ADC's are going to take the crit heal, but if that's also on a 2 sec CD (can't really discern that from the wording) it's not really that great, especially since Fervor of Battle is so incredibly powerful. Again, not really a choice, even for the 18th point. I'm too lazy to do the other 2 trees as well, let's discuss this one first. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's not really the way to look at these. I'm out of the house ATM so I can comment on each tier of the offense tree later on, but let's talk about Feast vs. Double Edged Sword, because that's one where I think the new system absolutely gets it right. This isn't a choice of one being stronger than the other. It's a choice between offense and defense. I think the issue here is you're undervaluing the Feast point. Feast in season 5 gives, with 10cs/min, 0.5hp per second and 0.16 mana per second. Season 6 feast should give 20hp per minion wave, or 0.66hp per second. So they are roughly equivalent. But its not the whole picture. Season 5 feast is tied to Butcher, which most people see as pretty shitty, so you pay 2 points for this regen. And even then, most people take feast in their pages because they realize that an extra potions worth of Regen in early laning is really fucking strong. In fact, a brief look at probuilds and I can find Koreans who take Feast in season 5 but do not take Double Edged Sword. This is also assuming diamond level CS BTW. I imagine the old feast was difficult to balance as it becomes stronger the better a player you are. So, feast is actually pretty good, IF you need extra laning Regen. Double edged sword is also obviously pretty good, IF you can get away with taking a little extra damage. The point is they don't do the same thing and you can only get one if them. So lets take a champion like oh, lets say Kassadin. Does Kassadin benefit from double edged sword? Absolutely, he's melee and more damage on him is great. But Kassadin also has a lot of lane opponents who can really punish him early on. It's not hard to see how an extra 100-150 HP in early Regen really benefits Kassadin. This means that which one you take isn't a choice of which is objectively better. It's about how safe you feel in your matchup. This is matchup dependent, but its also player dependent. Maybe you're Kassadin against Talon and you don't have many games on Kass and you're not confident in your ability to stay alive in lane, so you take Feast. But at the same time, maybe you're a Kassadin main and you've been wrecking Talons for ages and you're confident you can take the riskier mastery, outplay the other guy and then reap your extra damage later in the game. It's really not obvious which is better. It depends on you the player, not on the math behind it. And this relationship at this tier isn't just like this for Kassadin. There will be champions where its much more obvious that one is better than the other, but I'd say for a majority of champions this particular tier actually offers very interesting, meaningful choice. And that's a better system. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Fury vs. Sorcery I think is a pretty poor choice because it's going to come down to whether or not you do more damage with abilities or autoattacks, and for very few champions will there be any variation there. Varus maybe. Maybe. Natural Talent vs. Vampirism I think there's a legitimate argument as to it being offense vs. defense, very similarly to Double Edged Sword vs. Feast. I think it's a good choice here. However, in general I think people will heavily prefer Natural Talent here as they've been so accustomed to just not getting Vampirism masteries for a long time. I'm even a little biased against it and I'd like to do some math on just how good Vampirism will be. Natural Talent in general does not impress me very much unless you're a hybrid champion like Kayle or Akali. Bounty Hunter I just don't really like very much? I think I share some of Filduns criticisms about Bounty Hunter being a win more mastery. I don't like conditional power masteries and would probably greatly prefer Oppressor unless I'm a champion with very low CC. In general I don't think there's much choice here unless I'm an ADC in a duo lane and deciding to take or not take Oppressor depending on who my support is. The Pen masteries I think is a terrible choice. While there is a choice, it's not meaningful because for a given champion one will obviously be better. I'm also worried that these masteries will be so strong that they will be too much stronger than Precision in the Cunning tree and will push Assassins towards 18 Ferocity when Riot wants Assassins to lean towards 18 Cunning. Would need math to confirm that. I'm also not too happy with the Ferocity keystones. There's choice between Warlords and Fervor because Fervor will obviously outdamage Warlords while Warlords provides sustain, and that will be a meaningful choice for ADCs. For AD Casters there will be a choice between Warlords and Deathfire Touch, depending on how much the champion autos. But for Mages there's really no choice. I suppose that's because Mages will often be choosing between DFT and Thunderlord. So maybe, upon closer inspection, there's more choice than I thought and I'm not too upset with it. So, while I think there's more choice in the tree than Fildun, I think some of his criticisms are legitimate. In general I think Ferocity is the tree I like the least. In season 5 I think the Offense tree actually has the most opportunity for variation, so the comparison on heavy offense champions between season 5 and season 6 may look fairly paltry. I'd like it if they'd add Expose Weakness as a 6 point mastery in Ferocity to compete with Feast and Double Edged Sword for supports who want to go 6/18/6 or 6/6/18. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
Most assasins will just go 18/12/0 and that's the optimal build here. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On November 09 2015 00:54 Fildun wrote: Wait, does Riot want assasins to get 18 into Cunning? There's literally nothing there for them after the 12th point. Most assasins will just go 18/12/0 and that's the optimal build here. Decree is decent on assassins, so is the MS steroid or people like Talent to GTFO. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On November 09 2015 00:54 Fildun wrote: Wait, does Riot want assasins to get 18 into Cunning? There's literally nothing there for them after the 12th point. Most assasins will just go 18/12/0 and that's the optimal build here. It depends on how good the flat pen is vs the percent pen, we would need to run some numbers to find that out. Thunderlords is much better for burst damage than DFT is. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
Also, premade 4s are not talked about at all. Not sure how Lyte thinks giving the solo players ultimate report power will solve toxicity. There must be an USA weapon law comparison there, but let's just say I don't believe fighting fire with fire in this case is beneficial for anyone, | ||
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droserin
127 Posts
On November 09 2015 14:26 Volband wrote: Why did Lyte say not many people are getting carried now in duo queue, when it is known, that DQ is weighted in the current system? I thought they said they'll won't weight premades in dynamic queues, they'll just try to match them with a team having the same amount of premades, but they won't receive an MMR penalty unlike DQ-ing people now. Also, premade 4s are not talked about at all. Not sure how Lyte thinks giving the solo players ultimate report power will solve toxicity. There must be an USA weapon law comparison there, but let's just say I don't believe fighting fire with fire in this case is beneficial for anyone, That's a different thing. The mmr penalty for matchmaking a duo queue is because it assumes a duo is more coordinated than 2 solos, so they should face slighter better players. Lyte is claiming that there aren't many people who are ranked a lot higher than they should be because they duo with good players who carry them every game. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On November 09 2015 05:06 Ketara wrote: It depends on how good the flat pen is vs the percent pen, we would need to run some numbers to find that out. Thunderlords is much better for burst damage than DFT is. Looking at the numbers and the average armor that the assasin target has, I'd say that the flat pen is much better. With these new changes there's a lot less damage you can get from masteries, so I'd think that most assasins would go for a damage keystone instead of anything else. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
Do you still gain/lose MMR during the off season? Does MMR (soft) reset at the start of the new season, or at the start of the off season? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On November 09 2015 18:42 Mikau wrote: Speaking of new fancy stuff. Do you still gain/lose MMR during the off season? Does MMR (soft) reset at the start of the new season, or at the start of the off season? I believe your MMR still changes but the reset doesn't happen until the start of the next season. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
On November 09 2015 18:42 Mikau wrote: Speaking of new fancy stuff. Do you still gain/lose MMR during the off season? Does MMR (soft) reset at the start of the new season, or at the start of the off season? yeah the mmr will continue to change as usual and the latest mmr you have before the soft reset will be taken into account for the placements, not the mmr that you'll have at the end of the season, this one is only for the rewards. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
On November 09 2015 18:25 M2 wrote: So, all these new fancy stuff come in couple of days? Immediately after the season end? no time for nostalgic fooling around for few weeks? I must have missed something. Where does Riot announce when the preseason updates will be in effect? I'm trying to search for any official post or announcement, but can't seem to find anything :/ | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
On November 09 2015 22:36 o3.power91 wrote: I must have missed something. Where does Riot announce when the preseason updates will be in effect? I'm trying to search for any official post or announcement, but can't seem to find anything :/ They issued this: http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/522-pbe-cycle.html which is always followed by new patch in couple of days, not sure if this is the case now though | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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