EPTI'm not sure he warrants any nerfs but he's definitely in a very good place right now, obv so consider his pick status in the pro scene right now. Those of you that don't think Viktor is good just haven't played with/against a competent Viktor imo.
[Public Beta Environment] General Discussion - Page 4
| Forum Index > LoL General |
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
I'm not sure he warrants any nerfs but he's definitely in a very good place right now, obv so consider his pick status in the pro scene right now. Those of you that don't think Viktor is good just haven't played with/against a competent Viktor imo. | ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 07 2015 13:03 Sonnington wrote: Corki I understand. He has wicked waveclear and strong poke to complement the poke. He's also really safe. Viktor on the other hand I don't particularly get. I understand what you're saying Goumindong. But If Viktor is ok to play mid, so should Malzahar. Than again, Faker's never played Malz, so... ahem, I agree overall, I don't see Viktor being overly strong and in need of nerfs considering his performance in solo queue and recent competitive play. Malzahar can't insta clear a wave. He has to wait for ticks (which can be tanked by intrepid members of the other team) and can also be stopped in its path by Banner (I.E. with banner it stops Viktor too, but Viktor still gets the rest of the wave. Banner stops aids from propagating) After these changes however... 20 AP and 1 AP/level is pretty big. When you first start clearing waves you will be 25 AP down (or you won't have your Q augment). By level 9 you will be at least 29 AP below what you were prior to the PBE changes. If you got your second augment before that/around there then you're 49 AP down and you most definitely can't clear waves. The nerf at that point is worth about two to three kills of advantage.[900 ish gold]. On August 07 2015 12:57 cLutZ wrote: You just described a strong competitive champion. Dade used to do all those things in champion select with Ziggs, Zed, etc early picks to give the rest of his team pick/ban advantages. You also neglected to say how strong he is against Ezreal and Kassadin, and how he crowds out a large % of Ap mids by being as good at their niches, without commiserate disadvantages. No. Because if those things were so strong advantages then they would show up as advantages. Unless his kit is so weak that he has a 50% strength of schedule adjusted win rate despite that.[note that his real win rate is lower than that in all leagues, hit hits 50% only in the LPL] He loses games to Ezreal and Kassadin so i am not going to say he is strong against them. On August 07 2015 13:31 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l at some of you guys. I won't say much about pre-rework Viktor but current Viktor is strong as balls. Great wave clear, solid team fight and poke, and ridiculous burst (allow me to stress this last point). I'm not sure he warrants any nerfs but he's definitely in a very good place right now, obv so consider his pick status in the pro scene right now. Those of you that don't think Viktor is good just haven't played with/against a competent Viktor imo. Good champions win games; Viktor doesn't. Not in soloque, not in LPL, not in LCS (certainly not in LCS), not in LCK. He doesn't lose games either though, so he has that going for him. He's not actively bad but he just isn't particularly good. Indeed, if there was ever a particularly balanced champion who saw a lot of play it would be him. Near 50% win rate, slightly better in some matchups, worse in others. Reasons to pick him, reasons to ban him. He has all of the wave clear dickery that Fizz and Co before they were nerfed had but actual weaknesses to go along with it. Some people here think he is like super OP he is not. cLutZ didn't understand why he wasn't perma banned in LCS (answer 4 wins in 20 attempts including tie breakers). If these changes go through though he will be pretty dead. Not like "eh, kind of weak" but like super weak. They neuter the one thing keeping him competitive and the primary reason for picking him. | ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Solo queue, I've seen plenty of Viktors hard carry solo q at low/mid Diamond with all his previously mentioned strengths. I don't know what elo you normally play at, but maybe you just haven't seen many. Ok, np. But when you want to spout nonsense that has evidence against the contrary, I'm just going to outright call you bad and you should just stop shitposting for the sake of keeping our GD sensible. LCK Week 12 SKT T1 bans Viktor both games against Samsung KT vs IM, Nagne plays Viktor all three matches. He fucking hard carries in Game 1 (443 CS in 43 min game, 8-2-6 stat line). Game 2, he can't carry KT, despite having second most gold in the game and most kills. Game 3, he still does respectably. LCK Week 11 Jin Air vs SBENU, Viktor picked all three matches, on winning team each game. SKT T1, vs IM, Easyhoon picks Viktor both matches and trololols all over the place NaJin vs Samsung, Ggoong also double Viktor in two matches ftw. You can click on the links for the rest of the LCK play days yourself and you'll see resounding evidence that not only is Viktor a solid (read: good) pick but he's been raised to ban tier in Korea. If all the picks+bans and outstanding stat lines for Viktor on winning teams isn't enough to convince you he's good, you need to pull your head out of the sand. It's one thing to think Viktor isn't that strong (I personally do not think he warrants nerfs yet. Riot plz don't kneejerk) but it's a completely different to take the stance that Viktor is somehow kind of weak. If you somehow still think Viktor is trash tier, plz provide some kind of support other than your personal opinion. thx~ Edit: idk how Viktor is doing in LPL. I can check later. But if LCS Viktors are shitting up the champion's stat line, chalk it up to white people being white people. (please see: LCS Rengar) | ||
|
IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
| ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 07 2015 15:56 NeoIllusions wrote: Now I know you're talking out of your ass. Solo queue, I've seen plenty of Viktors hard carry solo q at low/mid Diamond with all his previously mentioned strengths. I don't know what elo you normally play at, but maybe you just haven't seen many. Ok, np. But when you want to spout nonsense that has evidence against the contrary, I'm just going to outright call you bad and you should just stop shitposting for the sake of keeping our GD sensible. LCK Week 12 SKT T1 bans Viktor both games against Samsung KT vs IM, Nagne plays Viktor all three matches. He fucking hard carries in Game 1 (443 CS in 43 min game, 8-2-6 stat line). Game 2, he can't carry KT, despite having second most gold in the game and most kills. Game 3, he still does respectably. LCK Week 11 Jin Air vs SBENU, Viktor picked all three matches, on winning team each game. SKT T1, vs IM, Easyhoon picks Viktor both matches and trololols all over the place NaJin vs Samsung, Ggoong also double Viktor in two matches ftw. You can click on the links for the rest of the LCK play days yourself and you'll see resounding evidence that not only is Viktor a solid (read: good) pick but he's been raised to ban tier in Korea. If all the picks+bans and outstanding stat lines for Viktor on winning teams isn't enough to convince you he's good, you need to pull your head out of the sand. It's one thing to think Viktor isn't that strong (I personally do not think he warrants nerfs yet. Riot plz don't kneejerk) but it's a completely different to take the stance that Viktor is somehow kind of weak. If you somehow still think Viktor is trash tier, plz provide some kind of support other than your personal opinion. thx~ Edit: idk how Viktor is doing in LPL. I can check later. But if LCS Viktors are shitting up the champion's stat line, chalk it up to white people being white people. (please see: LCS Rengar) Just FYI, his argument is not arguable because he just randomly makes up parameters that he thinks are important for champions. | ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
How about this. In the LPL graves is something like 2/22. Would you argue that graves is a strong champion because you've seen him win soloqueue games by hard carrying? Yea no. Even if in at least one of those games graves was used realy well and in a good and structured comp around his advantages! And viktor isn't bad in the LPL he just isn't strong. He doesn't have a win rate advantage over (almost) any other mid champion. In the summer LPL he has a 47.2% win rate: http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=104&season=ALL&tournament=LPL Summer 2015 In the summer LCK he has a 47.8% win rate: http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=104&season=ALL&tournament=LCK Summer 2015 In all of Season 5 Summer he has a 44.5% win rate: http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=104&season=S5&split=Summer In all of season 5 he has a 46.8% win rate: http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=104&season=S5 The only regular seasons he has a positive win rate at all is LPL spring and champions spring (though a small number of games here and seriously buttressed by only being played by Faker twice and the GE Tigers the rest of the time) But you know, you saw him carry once so I guess none of that matters. And another person saw him farm against an Ezreal so his 42.9% win rate against ezreal in he LCK summer doesn't matter. Edit: strength of schedule brings those numbers up slightly, since besides the early picks in the spring Viktor has a slight to heavy "weak team bias" if I understood crates work on it (I am too lazy to figure it out and recreate a SoS model so I will trust him) but they don't bring them up over 50% | ||
|
Alaric
France45622 Posts
I mean, look at the juggernaut reworks, look at Viktor now, look at other champions... Riot keeps nerfing champions' early and mid game in exchange for a (often little) better late game. In some cases, like Ryze and Azir, it's warranted since that's the intended strength of the champion. But whenever they get their hands on a lane bully they try to remove that (removing a lot of damage from Viktor's Q early, weakening Cass' laning phase, Darius whose power curve they aim at completely reversing, etc.) and they're homogeneising power curves in their own way (not because they make everyone equally strong lategame, but because they refuse to make champions strong early; granted, Rek'Sai, Elise and possibly Nidalee showed that they don't exactly know how to make a strong early, meh late champ without breaking it). I'd rather have Viktor made a bit weaker late game, or even something like increasing the price of subsequent augments (for example make the level 1 cheaper but remove some stats like the flat 20 AP, then mk. 2 same price, less stats, then mk. 3 a bit more expensive) so he keeps his curve and spikes. If they smash his wave clear he's going to be a lot weaker at roaming, especially because of the mana cost and cooldown on E making him unable to cast twice a wave. | ||
|
IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
By my accounts he has the following going for him Safe to blind pick Early lane bully Great wave clear Blue dependency is average Good burst at level 6 Good zoning at dragons. Strong late game damage. Do I think he needs a nerf no but is he currently one of the strongest mid laners and a borderline outlier not azir tier but close enough | ||
|
Alaric
France45622 Posts
From what you say, he used to be an actual lane bully pre-rework, now he's still not a pushover but he doesn't bully that much. He has some very bad match-ups (although Zed isn't popular anymore, and Diana was played to rush RUneglaive over Abyssal), and he's just as vulnerable to jungle pressure as other immobile mages (setup time on W makes it not that good unless you see the enemy coming from afar or they dive you), note that despite good base armour his HP pool is relatively low so he dies very fast. On top of that if you force a back before he has 1k gold you actually delay his timing by 2-3 minutes, especially if he spent gold, and he'll have to recall again anyway to get it. The Blue dependency thing doesn't combine with the zoning and wave clear: if you only clear the wave, sure, you can go by without blue (assuming you go Morellonomicon), but if you have to use more spells to harass, or zone at dragon, E empties your mana pool really fast. Viktor's actually meh at killing dragon/baron until late game because E is costly and the dps from Q is low. It doesn't mean I agree, only that I limit is "low blue dependency" to sitting in lane and waveclearing. But you're playing Viktor, not Anivia or Ziggs, so as far as I'm concerned that's not something I wanna do. The late game damage comes mostly from Q (it deals almost as much as augmented E, and has a much lower cooldown), which was changed in the rework: made shit in comparison in the early game (you lose around 20 damage, and in a Q-aa harass combo (which was already doable before since Q had less range than his aa) the aa is converted to magic damage and even without runes your opponent has more MR than armour early), it's only at level 13 (when you finish maxing it) that its value is equal in raw numbers to pre-rework Q, and then it starts getting a lot of damage each level until it sits at 400+ damage. Which was exactly my point: make him weaker in lane, buff his late game. Like every other champion they buff. And I'd rather see him lose part of that than be nerfed further early and lose his signature features (great waveclear and augmented E power spike). | ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
First, 45%+ win rate in competitive fundamentally doesn't indicate a champion is weak. It basically indicates exactly what Neo's been saying, Viktor is a strong but not OP champion. He's going toe to toe with the best champions/team compositions LoL has to offer and he's [i]almost[i] winning as many games as he loses. That's not the mark of a weak champion. Second, champions that are anything less than good get dropped from competitive play fast. If Viktor was weak you wouldn't see him picked so often by so many different players in so many different leagues for such a long time. That simply doesn't happen for weak champions. | ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 07 2015 21:27 IamPryda wrote: From a solo q stand point what exactly is Viktor missing in your opinion. By my accounts he has the following going for him Safe to blind pick Early lane bully Great wave clear Blue dependency is average Good burst at level 6 Good zoning at dragons. Strong late game damage. Do I think he needs a nerf no but is he currently one of the strongest mid laners and a borderline outlier not azir tier but close enough He doesn't have a greater than 50% win rate in any ranked division. Not plat not gold not diamond not master not bronze Many many other mid laners win more games han he. In soloqueue and in pro play. So say what you will about his advantages but they don't show up so either he must have commensurate disadvantages or other mid champions must do that as well. That indeed does make a champion "not strong" Look of the top 20 picked champions(over 100 total picks) in the summer he has the lowest win rate of all of them. Only three (iirc) are below 50% significantly. Things do not get better as you expand the pool to lower total picks. That isn't the stats of a "strong mid laner" or even "one of the better mid laners". He is right there stuck in the middle of the pack. | ||
|
phyvo
United States5635 Posts
| ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
| ||
|
Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
| ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
I don't see any downside here. | ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 08 2015 06:00 Seuss wrote: I don't understand your complaint. You can get to your opponent just as well as before, and now you can pull them further from safety. You may not always want to, but sometimes you certainly will. Plus you get to stun more often and get movement/attack speed whenever you do. I don't see any downside here. He is saying that the ideal buff would be to boost Skarners move speed before he ulted so that he could more easily ult. | ||
|
iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 08 2015 06:00 Seuss wrote: I don't understand your complaint. You can get to your opponent just as well as before, and now you can pull them further from safety. You may not always want to, but sometimes you certainly will. Plus you get to stun more often and get movement/attack speed whenever you do. I don't see any downside here. He's saying it makes his ganks less scary cuz now he runs slow when he gets to lane instead of zoom zoom with W. | ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 08 2015 06:07 Goumindong wrote: He is saying that the ideal buff would be to boost Skarners move speed before he ulted so that he could more easily ult. On August 08 2015 07:05 iCanada wrote: He's saying it makes his ganks less scary cuz now he runs slow when he gets to lane instead of zoom zoom with W. But you still get a movespeed boost from W. Same one as before. The only movespeed boost he lost was the one on Q which was 100% irrelevant for zooming into lane. | ||
|
phyvo
United States5635 Posts
| ||
|
Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
| ||
| ||
