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On August 19 2015 11:17 zer0das wrote:
After trying out Warrior/Triforce I do feel like its probably better than Cinderhulk/Black Cleaver, with the caveat it helps the Warrior/Triforce side a lot if the game stays spread out and there aren't many big team fights. I feel like I die a lot more earlier with Warrior/Triforce but its okay because I'm generating a lot more kills too, which leads to fewer deaths later (when it matters more). And in solo que no one ever really groups that efficiently to kill towers early.
If you are talking about Vi: I think Warrior + BC is better.
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But Warrior and a 2nd brutalizer...
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On August 19 2015 13:16 Ethelis wrote:
But Warrior and a 2nd brutalizer...
No reason for a second Brut unless you're building Ghostblade.
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General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target? I always understood that you build LW and Void 3rdish because they are the best for killing people and you need to prioritize other stats for other reasons, like laning.
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On August 19 2015 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target? I always understood that you build LW and Void 3rdish because they are the best for killing people and you need to prioritize other stats for other reasons, like laning.
BC doesn't go as high 30% instead of 35%(yes, I know it's reduction and not pen) and takes time to get up there. LW is "I want to kill this now", BC is "I'm/We're going to kill this in a little bit."
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On August 19 2015 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target?
It can't be, because it has zero effect at zero armor. Past a certain point it is true that--assuming there are no other sources of arpen/reduction--the effect is nearly equal on all targets, though. (See for instance the graph on http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_penetration near the bottom).
edit: nevermind, the graph there is wrong. It is true that if you get to high enough armor/MR the effect of %penetration does pretty much level off, but it's probably not till about 300 armor.
Anyway the shape of the curve in this case is what you'd expect given the endpoints: it goes to zero at 0 armor, and goes to a constant (for 35% pen, you deal about 1.54 times as much damage to a target with a hundred thousand armor as you do without penetration) as you go to infinity.
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On August 19 2015 13:29 Gahlo wrote:No reason for a second Brut unless you're building Ghostblade.
But blowing up squishies for a mere 1337 gold into tank stats...
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On August 19 2015 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target?
No, never.
If you want %increase in damage then it's better to reduce armor on high armor targets.
A 50% decrease in armor on a 100 armor target means you do (100+100)/(100+50)=33% more damage
A 50% decrease in armor on a 50 armor target means you do (100+50)/(100+25)=20% more damage
If you're talking about flat damage, then in the first case you're removing more armor than the second case which means a larger damage difference.
Eg. going from 100 damage to 133 damage is 33 damage increase on the first target. (you did 200 physical damage before resists).
Going from 133 damage to 160 damage is 27 damage increase on the second target. (you did 200 physical damage before resists)
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On August 19 2015 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target? I always understood that you build LW and Void 3rdish because they are the best for killing people and you need to prioritize other stats for other reasons, like laning.
No, LW and Void are more effective the more armor/MR the target has.
The confusing thing is that for Void, on many champions Void is the most damage increase per gold even if the target only has the base 30 MR. This isn't true for all AP champions, but it is true for many of them.
So on those champions, Void is not only the highest damage item regardless of MR, its value goes up as the target builds MR anyway.
This is less true since the AP rework, since now Liandry can outdamage Void vs. very low MR values on some champions, and the gold efficiency of deathcap is a little better.
But on some champions this is still true, Void is just the best damage increase regardless of the situation.
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On August 19 2015 13:54 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target? No, never. If you want %increase in damage then it's better to reduce armor on high armor targets. A 50% decrease in armor on a 100 armor target means you do (100+100)/(100+50)=33% more damage A 50% decrease in armor on a 50 armor target means you do (100+50)/(100+25)=20% more damage If you're talking about flat damage, then in the first case you're removing more armor than the second case which means a larger damage difference. Eg. going from 100 damage to 133 damage is 33 damage increase on the first target. (you did 200 physical damage before resists). Going from 133 damage to 160 damage is 27 damage increase on the second target. (you did 200 physical damage before resists)
Here is actually the scenario:
Alpha has 100 AD and 30% Arp
Beta has 100 AD and 0% Arp
Gamma has 10000 HP and 50 Armor
Delta has 10000 HP and 500 Armor
Does it matter which attacker attacks which defender? Please explain.
Edit. Updated because no one actually has 0 armor.
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On August 19 2015 16:47 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 13:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 19 2015 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
General question: isn't % ar/Mr reduction equally effective no matter the target? No, never. If you want %increase in damage then it's better to reduce armor on high armor targets. A 50% decrease in armor on a 100 armor target means you do (100+100)/(100+50)=33% more damage A 50% decrease in armor on a 50 armor target means you do (100+50)/(100+25)=20% more damage If you're talking about flat damage, then in the first case you're removing more armor than the second case which means a larger damage difference. Eg. going from 100 damage to 133 damage is 33 damage increase on the first target. (you did 200 physical damage before resists). Going from 133 damage to 160 damage is 27 damage increase on the second target. (you did 200 physical damage before resists) Here is actually the scenario: Alpha has 100 AD and 30% Arp Beta has 100 AD and 0% Arp Gamma has 10000 HP and 50 Armor Delta has 10000 HP and 500 Armor Does it matter which attacker attacks which defender? Please explain. Edit. Updated because no one actually has 0 armor.
Obviously, Alpha should attack Delta here.
Unless your point is that Alpha does more damage than Beta vs both characters, which is obvious if he has 30% Arp over Beta. Try Beta having 130 AD instead.
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On August 19 2015 13:16 Ethelis wrote:
But Warrior and a 2nd brutalizer...
BC doesn't build from Brutalizer.
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On August 19 2015 11:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 11:17 zer0das wrote:
After trying out Warrior/Triforce I do feel like its probably better than Cinderhulk/Black Cleaver, with the caveat it helps the Warrior/Triforce side a lot if the game stays spread out and there aren't many big team fights. I feel like I die a lot more earlier with Warrior/Triforce but its okay because I'm generating a lot more kills too, which leads to fewer deaths later (when it matters more). And in solo que no one ever really groups that efficiently to kill towers early. If you are talking about Vi: I think Warrior + BC is better.
but its demonstrably worse
hue
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On August 19 2015 21:37 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 11:52 Sufficiency wrote:On August 19 2015 11:17 zer0das wrote:
After trying out Warrior/Triforce I do feel like its probably better than Cinderhulk/Black Cleaver, with the caveat it helps the Warrior/Triforce side a lot if the game stays spread out and there aren't many big team fights. I feel like I die a lot more earlier with Warrior/Triforce but its okay because I'm generating a lot more kills too, which leads to fewer deaths later (when it matters more). And in solo que no one ever really groups that efficiently to kill towers early. If you are talking about Vi: I think Warrior + BC is better. but its demonstrably worse hue
Except it is not. The worth of the build is more than the amount of damage in one rotation.
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Didn't we just have this discussion for 10 pages?
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Yeah, if we didn't come to any conclusion after 10 pages, I don't think we ever will. It all depends on the way you want to play Vi.
I will say: Ghostblade is super underrated on both melees and ADC. 20 flat pen, 10% CDR, 30 AD, and a large movespeed buff is pretty fuckin efficient first item if you're playing to kill one guy and are a caster.
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In the end it all depends on what you want your Vi to be.
Trinity force gives burst, with the trinity force procs. It's also better at dps in a long fight compared to BC.
However if your burst doesn't kill someone with triforce, you have basically no tank stats and no cooldowns and you die. With cleaver you get more HP, and 20% cdr that lets you get out/get another spell rotation.
What determines whether triforce can kill your opponent is how much gold/levels you have compared to your opponent, if you are ahead then you can get triforce before they are tanky enough and you win. If you are behind...then you die.
So I think the question is are you ahead enough that you can assassinate with triforce? yes -> triforce no -> BC or tank.
On August 19 2015 22:40 Caiada wrote:
Yeah, if we didn't come to any conclusion after 10 pages, I don't think we ever will. It all depends on the way you want to play Vi.
I will say: Ghostblade is super underrated on both melees and ADC. 20 flat pen, 10% CDR, 30 AD, and a large movespeed buff is pretty fuckin efficient first item if you're playing to kill one guy and are a caster.
No.
You just run moderately fast and do no damage because the ad scaling just isn't there. Also you can't waveclear and can't sustain, so you just lose lane.
It's good as a second or third item after you actually get some real AD and fighting power.
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Ghostblade falls off pretty hard though. You used to go IE/Ghostblade on Graves or Lucian because the BFS + brutaliser is a super strong timing (even pickaxe + brutaliser) but as soon as the other guy completes his 2nd item you're a lot weaker while the active is down, and it goes downhill from there.
The active also tends to not be enough to deal with tanks since they'll survive the duration anyway.
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On August 19 2015 22:47 Alaric wrote:
Ghostblade falls off pretty hard though. You used to go IE/Ghostblade on Graves or Lucian because the BFS + brutaliser is a super strong timing (even pickaxe + brutaliser) but as soon as the other guy completes his 2nd item you're a lot weaker while the active is down, and it goes downhill from there.
The active also tends to not be enough to deal with tanks since they'll survive the duration anyway.
Yeah. It does what it does well (killing one squishy guy) but that role is pretty shit right now, with Graves being out, Lucian played as standard ADC, Draven not particularly in, so on. And in general ADC itemization doesn't really fit it in anywhere.
It's more interesting on other casters. GP, top Quinn, Varus mid should probably get it earlier than it does because of his hilarious base arrow damage. Mid Ez as a late item to fully commit to that poke, maybe. I don't know if/when Riven gets it, but she should.
On August 19 2015 22:45 gobbledydook wrote:In the end it all depends on what you want your Vi to be. Trinity force gives burst, with the trinity force procs. It's also better at dps in a long fight compared to BC. However if your burst doesn't kill someone with triforce, you have basically no tank stats and no cooldowns and you die. With cleaver you get more HP, and 20% cdr that lets you get out/get another spell rotation. What determines whether triforce can kill your opponent is how much gold/levels you have compared to your opponent, if you are ahead then you can get triforce before they are tanky enough and you win. If you are behind...then you die. So I think the question is are you ahead enough that you can assassinate with triforce? yes -> triforce no -> BC or tank. Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 22:40 Caiada wrote:
Yeah, if we didn't come to any conclusion after 10 pages, I don't think we ever will. It all depends on the way you want to play Vi.
I will say: Ghostblade is super underrated on both melees and ADC. 20 flat pen, 10% CDR, 30 AD, and a large movespeed buff is pretty fuckin efficient first item if you're playing to kill one guy and are a caster. No. You just run moderately fast and do no damage because the ad scaling just isn't there. Also you can't waveclear and can't sustain, so you just lose lane. It's good as a second or third item after you actually get some real AD and fighting power.
Hence my caveat of caster, yes. Any guy who'd even think to get it first: Quinn, maybe Graves, maybe Lucian, has strong enough base to make 20 pen worth a lot of gold early.
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I'm pretty sure once Varus has Manamune and brutaliser, the CDR from lucidity boots or the ArPen from LW are better, even though it's now almost double the price (but if they have 60 armour then LW beats the additional ArPen from Youmuu's twice, so it's stronger once completed anyway).
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EPT
