[Patch 5.13] Tahm Kench General Discussion - Page 23

On July 13 2015 14:35 cLutZ wrote:

Here is why I disagree with you:

A) They have a summoner spell, smite, that should be capable of doing all of those things you describe.

B) The first problem with jungle items is that you either make junglers and jungle items shit (relegating junglers to 2nd class citizens), or laners buy them (and now take smite) and gain advantages in exactly the way that Riot was trying to fix after S2. Thus defeating the purpose of the jungle item.

C) Because a second (arguably first, but these are the 2 most important goals of post S2 jungle changes) is jungle diversity, you need to have parity among the jungle items, or create a single jungle item that makes all types of junglers equal. (As a reminder, the S2 finals patch had more junglers played competitively than any subsequent patch, often more than entire seasons spanning many patches). Typically, the jungle meta is dictated by what is the "op" jungle item of the day. It also eliminates from possible jungle play all champions that dont synergize well with a jungle item.

Because I'm tired, and might have been unclear. Jungle items suck because: They reduce jungle diversity (AP vs. AD. vs. Tank vs. Bruiser, etc), fuck up the lanes, and relegate junglers to a second class status.

Edit:

I agree, but come to a different result, because IMO oracles was 90% of the S2 jungle problems.

On July 13 2015 23:55 M2 wrote:
I often thought how would league looks like without flash. Definitely it won't be 100% replaced by ghost. Most likely we will see a lot of different combinations: ignite/exhaust, ghost/ignite, heal/barrier. heal/ignite and etc. and etc. Not sure that it won't impact the balance of the game too much, but for sure it will make summoners more diverse

On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote:
Again, they exist to mitigate laner influence on jungler gold by making it suboptimal for laners to take a jungle camp in every scenario where the jungler can reasonably take the same camp (i.e. reach it to kill it bf it respawns). All of the other shit (smite types, enchantments) is fluff to add depth to the jungler role and to create mechanisms by which to balance jungler types against each other (because they have to commit to the item slot to maximize their gold gain irrespective of the jungler type). So i personally dont have a problem with jungler items, because this solution is the best solution imo to the jungler dilemma and gives a modicum of depth to the role that didnt exist before, while also opening up the champ pool.

On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote:
All y'all are just salty that laners are taking smite, but if this wasnt the case you'd all be salty that we only saw 3 jungle champions and no depth to the pool at all. At least in the current scenario you can see Olaf, Zac, Lee Sin, Jarvan etc all situationally in comps designed to exploit their strengths, which is closer to an idealistic level of balance. Not to mention that now hypercarries in all positions have value because dominant laners cannot cruise control through teams and now fall off, Top Lane carry champs are viable because the burden of damage soaking can be put onto another role (Yay Smeb Riven Penta!), and assassins cannot perform the role of mages anymore in teamcomps because they dont have the ability to kill tanks nearly as effectively. Cinderhulk and this jungle meta has been the best thing that happened to league in years.

On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote:
The only real criticism that i see is Gahlo's smite complaint, which is valid. But it because laners are tied to their lanes to maximize gold gain they cannot really use Smite's objective control to its fullest extent for 9/10ths of the game for example in buff invades, no-tp dragon contests, counterjungling and of course just clearing your own damn jungle. They always have a trade off to using smite (laning) where a jungler just does not. Not to mention that they also have a shit summoner for most of the early game and if you cannot abuse their awful laning phase then you take a top lane tank of your own, which mutes a large portion of top-lane smites impact.

In the mid-late game i see your point that it sucks, but I think its a relatively fair tradeoff that creates a pretty damning power trough in the early game.

On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote:
Imo when they're done fixing up Warrior enchant we'll see teams abuse weak early game teams more. As it is, Cinderhulk is just too damn strong and nerfing it more than it has been nerfed is a bit unreasonable, so Warrior has to go up to compensate, as does Devourer. I dont see anyone playing out the devourer route though (im praying for ClearLove to prove me wrong) so all of the opportunity cost has to come from warrior.

Why not just put the mitigating of lane influence on jungle gold right onto smite? As stated before, that jungle items expand the jungle champiopn pool is objectively false, because it shrank immediately starting in S3, and has never recovered to even 50% of S2 levels of diversity. Which was pre-jungle item.

Probably, I don't care about the objective part.

I'm seeing mostly only Gragas/RekSai using Cinderhulk. Obviously they are a tier, then Eve, then the Nunu/Nidalee/Lee/Ekko which makes it seem that there is already a huge earlygame focus in jungle picks.

On July 14 2015 07:00 Purge wrote:


I dont see the point to aspiring to S2 jungle diversity because junglers had next to no gold by comparison to now and were entirely dependent on ganking results. If we go back to that meta junglers are the poorest role on the team because now supports have more gold from gp10 items. Whats more, i Im actually fairly sure that S3 is just an optimized form of S2 and that we'd just see the best junglers who function under low gold totals happen. Like things that made tanks work in that meta (Double gp10, HoG) arent coming back. So im not sure what it is exactly you want to happen there.

Putting the gold onto the smite doesnt stop laners from getting smite, it encourages them to get it. They get it and they get a free % increase in gold gain from jungling. Assuming you arent going to remove smite buffs, you still see it in top lane to help tanks push with krug turret buff and gromp poison. Ignite is useless to them and if they can get away without having flash it gives them all of the current bonuses that they dont have to pay to get, + more gold and an extra item slot compared to live.



Dont see how you can not care about the objective part when its a core gameplay aspect in the mid to late game. Says alot.



Olaf and Zac arent bad. After Elise's changes sink in she should be meta again or they'll keep buffing her till she is. Champs like Rammus and Skarner wont ever be meta unless something radically changes or Devourer is godly on him (in Skarners case). Nocturne in specific circumstances is very nice :D Ive seen QG run an epic Nocturne comp that was fun to watch, tho i think it requires putting priority on jungler pick in draft so you'll probably rarely see him given that mid lane is so important to counter. And Diana needs a rework and Cho is better AP.

I miss anyone? Right now i think jungler picks are skewed really heavily because Rek and Gragas are crowding out a ton of viable picks (esp Rek, she's like Lee Sin 2.0 sometimes), but there is space in the meta for more champs when they get put in their appropriate place. Im not sure Riot knows how to appropriately balance Rek tho.

Honestly with the ancilliary effects of Cinderhulk being a paradigm shift in midlane picks and increased botlane viabilties im not sure i personally care if we only have 3-4 junglers until Rek and Gragas get toned down. Its a better meta than S3, S4 and S2 imo and it has all the tools we need to see improvement. But thats just me.

And thats just pro play. There is a ton of shit that is viable outside of pro play, none of this has almost any bearing on that.

On July 14 2015 07:03 Ansibled wrote:

Please don't play Jungle Vayne :|

On July 14 2015 07:31 cLutZ wrote:


So to start, S2 jungle gold was low partially because the gold was low (fixed by putting gold on smite, if needed) and also because of Oracles murdering your gold pool. Sometimes, if they didn't die, a jungler would end up with a healthy amount of gold because it wasn't, basically, a 400G tax every 5 minutes. That tax is why they became a 2nd support, because they had such low gold amounts, that they couldnt effectively utilize or farm up more gold.

I would certainly eliminate the smite buffs, thats another stupid thing that makes early jungle routes more static and adds another needless complexity to the jungle that riot can't balance. So once again, can put the gold on smite, if its too low.

I don't care for the objective part because I think the whole concept of stealing an objective should be removed. Super annoying ingame or watching a game. At the very least, if teams want to dedicate extra summoner slots to buff control and objective control, I think that is a fine idea. The problem currently is that the lane champs that gain that advantage don't sacrifice enough for it. Thats a tweakable problem. Not systemic or anything.

I agree that Rek Sai crowds out a lot of junglers, which has happened since S3, usually that being Lee or Elise. But if she wasn't, history tells us someone else likely would. Olaf is fine, clearly T2 though, and I haven't seen ZAC be anything interesting or that Nocturne game.

On July 14 2015 08:22 Alaric wrote:
As someone who plays immobile mages.
Fuck that new Luden's holy shit.
It's shitting so hard on Viktor, in that last game there were both a Kog and a Diana. Hard to get close to Kog, hard to get away from Diana (not to say impossible).

That 10% MS is more than a pair of boots, even post-reductions (I think when I finally completed mine I went from 387 to 423 MS I think?). That's bonkers. I'm basically forced to buy it if anyone on the other team has it, just to keep up.

Kog just hit his Rylai's. The guy's really, really bad (we're losing a game while outplaying everyone because they picked Ezreal and Renekton into AP Kog, Jinx and Gnar, basically), but once he got Rylai's it stopped mattering at all. Going from 15% to 40% slow is pretty ridiculous, and makes it impossible for him to miss any one skillshot. Even with a dash or stuff, he's going to hit at least 2 Rs for any spell hitting a target.
The current patch hits LCS next week, right? I'm really curious to see who they'll use again with the items changes, but that new Rylai's on AP Kog is going to be bonkers.