EPT[Patch 5.13] Tahm Kench General Discussion - Page 21
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On July 13 2015 08:42 Amarok wrote: Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy. Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking. The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket. If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average. By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase. Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 13 2015 10:03 Sonnington wrote: The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map. No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets. On July 13 2015 10:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision: Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket. If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average. By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase. Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place. The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it. There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
On July 13 2015 10:03 Sonnington wrote: The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map. What if we introduce a consumable item that lets the drinker see wards and lets him control the entire vision of the map until the item expires or the user dies? We can give it to the guy who roams the most on the team...like the jungler. Riot pls hire me now. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2015 10:54 Amarok wrote: No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets. The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it. There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree. At that point, its just better to remove all vision besides minions/towers/champs from the map. Particularly in the laning phase. Or, every champion should get the little ! over their head Rengar-style anytime there is a 1v2+ within 1000 units of him. Pre-trinkets and pre-sightstone, ganking was very frustrating for soloQ because it felt pseudo-random, and in pro games it was silly to watch because tops like Flame would turn 1 gank, even if it didn't get a kill, into the end of the game. The combat to that was warding, which means that system under you would last basically the entire game, instead of just until 1st back. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On July 13 2015 10:54 Amarok wrote: No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets. The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it. There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree. Ah I see. So it would be more like season 1 and 2 where people just didn't buy wards. I like the idea of vision being cheap. If you don't have proper vision control that's pretty much your own fault. You didn't play the map correctly, you didn't think ahead, you don't play as a team, or the early game went so badly it's too dangerous to gain important vision control. When you make vision a rarer commodity the possibility and probability for random encounters to happen goes up. I don't like the idea that random factors that you can't counter are more likely to determine the outcome of the game. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 13 2015 11:15 cLutZ wrote: At that point, its just better to remove all vision besides minions/towers/champs from the map. Particularly in the laning phase. Or, every champion should get the little ! over their head Rengar-style anytime there is a 1v2+ within 1000 units of him. Pre-trinkets and pre-sightstone, ganking was very frustrating for soloQ because it felt pseudo-random, and in pro games it was silly to watch because tops like Flame would turn 1 gank, even if it didn't get a kill, into the end of the game. The combat to that was warding, which means that system under you would last basically the entire game, instead of just until 1st back. Why would it be better to remove all vision from the game? The idea (at least in my head) was that your team would have limited vision tools available, similar in some ways to Dota but within the LoL trinket system which works pretty well imo. Your team could still upgrade yellow trinkets and light the map up but your denial options would be limited, alternately you could focus on vision denial by purchasing mostly reds or scouting fog by purchasing blues. It'd be a sort of rock, paper, scissors arrangement where yellow beats blue which beats red which beats yellow. I dunno, might not work but I'm just tired of the infinite vision game. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Look at Fnatic. They have an entire 14-0 strategy focused around winning fights with selective vision. Huni splits bottom at around 20-22 minutes. Attracts attention, wards up bottom. Rest of the team selectively denies vision around Baron, wards up around it. They get the fight at Baron and take it on their own terms off the vision (and skill, but that's another matter.) Vision's a complex resource. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2015 12:22 Amarok wrote: Why would it be better to remove all vision from the game? The idea (at least in my head) was that your team would have limited vision tools available, similar in some ways to Dota but within the LoL trinket system which works pretty well imo. Your team could still upgrade yellow trinkets and light the map up but your denial options would be limited, alternately you could focus on vision denial by purchasing mostly reds or scouting fog by purchasing blues. It'd be a sort of rock, paper, scissors arrangement where yellow beats blue which beats red which beats yellow. I dunno, might not work but I'm just tired of the infinite vision game. Yes, it would be RPS, which is crappy because you start the game with 0 vision. Starcraft analogy (TvZ) if Zrush>Trush>Zexp>Texp>Zrush thats not terrible if scouting is a skill, but trinket purchasing is not a skill, so its essentially like that is correct, but from the fountain, and you have to remember, backing is a cost in this game. Its not really like the DOTA system at all because that would be the S2/3 system except with wards costing more, having limited supply, and supports not being basically wardbots. The majority of Dota (and dota2) is played with most of the map black, and ganks are easier to counter by the defensive team either by grouping elsewhere, or TPing to the fight. Because of the snowball nature of the game, generally, you want to have S3 style nearly infinite vision (but cheaper and earlier), or no vision, with the fog of war being less impactful. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 13 2015 13:02 Caiada wrote: It's not infinite. Fundamental misunderstanding. It's based (quite well, honestly) on opportunity cost. Look at Fnatic. They have an entire 14-0 strategy focused around winning fights with selective vision. Huni splits bottom at around 20-22 minutes. Attracts attention, wards up bottom. Rest of the team selectively denies vision around Baron, wards up around it. They get the fight at Baron and take it on their own terms off the vision (and skill, but that's another matter.) Vision's a complex resource. I was being a bit facetious with the infinite comment. I know it's not infinite, but it's extremely low cost. Bountiful if you like. It's probably less of an issue in pro games tbh. There's plenty of opportunity to exploit vision if your team is co-ordinated (Fnatic being the best in the west at it) but in solo q it feels impossible. People don't know you've even cleared a ward let alone what to do with that information but even solo q junglers know they need to buy a sightstone or upgrade their yellow at the very least. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
On July 12 2015 13:43 cLutZ wrote: ??? I'm just saying Ap itemization was already more creative and fun, and now the buildups are also less frustrating. Also my creative idea is eliminating jungle items, which is way more creative than making NLR reasonably priced. Yeah i was getting a bit stir-crazy in the house yesterday and went a bit overboard with the sass. Apologies, but the whining here can be a bit ludicrous and it gets to me sometimes. Otherwise the jungle items are an integral part of the game - they gate gold income from laners and creates the oppurtunity costs necessary for junglers to get a decent average income ingame. Oppurtunity as an item slot, as gold investment, oppurtunity cost as a stat bundle or playstyle enhancer. Admittedly currently the latter of those is not working right b/c cinderhulk is heads and above the most useful, but their basic concept is a core mechanic. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
On July 13 2015 11:08 AsianEcksDragon wrote: What if we introduce a consumable item that lets the drinker see wards and lets him control the entire vision of the map until the item expires or the user dies? We can give it to the guy who roams the most on the team...like the jungler. Riot pls hire me now. Oracles is waay too strong when you are ahead because it effectively means you can permaclear wards around objectives. And useless when behind because you just get focused and die even easier than normal because you are spending 400 gold every death on an item that gives no stats. If it gave stats everyone would get it because it makes no sense to not have it if it's a statistically good choice on a tank or something similar. Which is why its gone. Or was this a joke i missed. Probably the latter. Sorry. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2015 14:08 Purge wrote: Yeah i was getting a bit stir-crazy in the house yesterday and went a bit overboard with the sass. Apologies, but the whining here can be a bit ludicrous and it gets to me sometimes. Otherwise the jungle items are an integral part of the game - they gate gold income from laners and creates the oppurtunity costs necessary for junglers to get a decent average income ingame. Oppurtunity as an item slot, as gold investment, oppurtunity cost as a stat bundle or playstyle enhancer. Admittedly currently the latter of those is not working right b/c cinderhulk is heads and above the most useful, but their basic concept is a core mechanic. Here is why I disagree with you: A) They have a summoner spell, smite, that should be capable of doing all of those things you describe. B) The first problem with jungle items is that you either make junglers and jungle items shit (relegating junglers to 2nd class citizens), or laners buy them (and now take smite) and gain advantages in exactly the way that Riot was trying to fix after S2. Thus defeating the purpose of the jungle item. C) Because a second (arguably first, but these are the 2 most important goals of post S2 jungle changes) is jungle diversity, you need to have parity among the jungle items, or create a single jungle item that makes all types of junglers equal. (As a reminder, the S2 finals patch had more junglers played competitively than any subsequent patch, often more than entire seasons spanning many patches). Typically, the jungle meta is dictated by what is the "op" jungle item of the day. It also eliminates from possible jungle play all champions that dont synergize well with a jungle item. Because I'm tired, and might have been unclear. Jungle items suck because: They reduce jungle diversity (AP vs. AD. vs. Tank vs. Bruiser, etc), fuck up the lanes, and relegate junglers to a second class status. Edit: On July 13 2015 14:13 Purge wrote: Oracles is waay too strong when you are ahead because it effectively means you can permaclear wards around objectives. And useless when behind because you just get focused and die even easier than normal because you are spending 400 gold every death on an item that gives no stats. If it gave stats everyone would get it because it makes no sense to not have it if it's a statistically good choice on a tank or something similar. Which is why its gone. Or was this a joke i missed. Probably the latter. Sorry. I agree, but come to a different result, because IMO oracles was 90% of the S2 jungle problems. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2015 16:45 M2 wrote: I don't agree that laners using smite&jungle items is a big issue. I mean if every laners was doing it, then yeah, but when we have like few top laners and couple of specific mid laners that benefit from it, no big deal. Of course they should not be superior to any other laner that doen't use smite My problem with lane smite, is that it is so champion specific, and that it defeats most of the purposes of jungle items (you know, junglers taking jungle camps, jungle diversity, etc) within an individual game. And it ends up making those lane champions very jungle-item dependent (or the jungle item is just ruined) which is bad for the games' long term health. Similarly to before, there is no reason, in your reasoning, that there couldn't just be a laning champion that is balanced around being good at taking jungle camps instead. Particularly considering Riot's 3 years of proving my POV to be correct... | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
Not to mention that that shitter Ezreal is getting the damage conversion nerfed off of Runglaive. -.- | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I think it shouldn't be a summoner at all. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 13 2015 21:17 Gahlo wrote: My issue with lane smite is that solo laners, by the way the game is constructed, will pretty much always be a higher level than their jungler if the game doesn't take a horribly bad turn. As the seasons go by and Riot continually shaves off power of the jungler to destroy a lane through proper play, the jungler position identity becomes more and more about neutral objectives. But all of the sudden they don't even have the best smite on the team. I actually saw one game when I was doing research for builds where the jungler had the 3rd best smite on the team. A jungler should have to play an objective specialist like Nunu or Chogath to be able to perform their positions core tenants. Let's also not forget that when a Kalista is on your team you can kiss smiting stuff goodbye because Rend scales to infinity and beyond. Not to mention that that shitter Ezreal is getting the damage conversion nerfed off of Runglaive. -.- maybe in pro play but definitely not anywhere else.Your smite doing 50 less damage doesn't matter if you don't suck and can time it with your other abilities. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On July 13 2015 21:39 nafta wrote: maybe in pro play but definitely not anywhere else.Your smite doing 50 less damage doesn't matter if you don't suck and can time it with your other abilities. Because laners only have auto attacks... | ||
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