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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:02 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l, he hates that item so much i agree 100% and knew what the post would be about before i read it its an item that you always want to have on your team but doesn't feel fun at all to buy it might as well just add 20 flat mr to everyone and let people buy the items they want riots always gave half assed answers to why they want it in the game like it makes split pushers stronger or something | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
That won't make her initiation-capable, contrary to Alistar or Thresh. And she can't peel with displacements like they (or Janna) can, so she's just inferior atm. That wouldn't make her strong but it would help, especially when she wasn't a strong support in the first place and got further nerfed because she was a bully at mid/top. I don't think undoing those nerfs (except the 5 second speed buff) would make her as strong as she was in S4 because the meta has shifted from assassin and fighter to poke mid and tanky top. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:26 Slayer91 wrote: i agree 100% and knew what the post would be about before i read it its an item that you always want to have on your team but doesn't feel fun at all to buy it might as well just add 20 flat mr to everyone and let people buy the items they want riots always gave half assed answers to why they want it in the game like it makes split pushers stronger or something they removed bulwark yet aegis/locket exists lol it always comes down to we need more item actives and we keep waiting but they never come | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On the other hand, I doubt the Aegis passive will exist as-is post-S5. Riot hates non-offensive auras, and even those they want to add some degree of interaction to. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:52 Caiada wrote: Would be nicer if people would remember that Banner of Command exists and has the exact same passive and is extremely useful in an era of heavy AP wavepushing. But that's asking for too much when people crucify junglers w/o Locket. I'm pretty sure asking for Lemon to get Banner is like pulling teeth. It's kind of telling he didn't even mention it. Outside of sometimes Lustboy and maybe a few scattered times elsewhere, no team seems to put any stock into the Banner bandwagon in LCS. Meanwhile in Korea even Shens sometimes go "I need to split push, Banner up!" | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:35 nafta wrote: they removed bulwark yet aegis/locket exists lol it always comes down to we need more item actives and we keep waiting but they never come They never come? People have been asking for more active abilities on items for aaaaages. I grant that Riot has been very slow to deliver and reluctant to introduce anything remotely comparable to Dota 2, but there's a ton more active abilities than when I started the game back in pre-season 1. AA didn't have a shield. BotRK is new. Locket shield is new. Tiamat/hydra active is new. Banner of command active is "new". Zz'rot portal is new. Righteous glory is new. Mikaels is new. Twin shadows is new. Ohmwrecker is new. Shurelya's was new before it got removed and turned into Talisman. Frost queen's claim is new. Face of the mountain is new. Sightstone is new. Zeke's rework is on the PBE right now. Maybe there's stuff that I forgot too. It's ok to say that there are problems with the actives we have, or even that we should have more actives, but it's not ok to pretend that Riot hasn't even tried. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 13 2015 04:11 VayneAuthority wrote: the problem is aegis is more necessary then ever with what they are doing with the game. if that item doesnt exist then its adc and 4 AP all day every day. Hell, it already almost is just hasnt settled in yet. No idea what they were thinking with this AP makeover, its wayyy too strong. Maybe they are making over AD items? Honestly, I thought it was stupid too, why did AP items need to have smooth buildups in the first place? Riot doesn't really get the difference between cost efficient, slot efficient, and etc in item slots. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 13 2015 04:02 phyvo wrote: They never come? People have been asking for more active abilities on items for aaaaages. I grant that Riot has been very slow to deliver and reluctant to introduce anything remotely comparable to Dota 2, but there's a ton more active abilities than when I started the game back in pre-season 1. AA didn't have a shield. BotRK is new. Locket shield is new. Tiamat/hydra active is new. Banner of command active is "new". Zz'rot portal is new. Righteous glory is new. Mikaels is new. Twin shadows is new. Ohmwrecker is new. Shurelya's was new before it got removed and turned into Talisman. Frost queen's claim is new. Face of the mountain is new. Sightstone is new. Zeke's rework is on the PBE right now. Maybe there's stuff that I forgot too. It's ok to say that there are problems with the actives we have, or even that we should have more actives, but it's not ok to pretend that Riot hasn't even tried. ok they come but either suck or aren't enough.I also have been playing since s1 and building literally the same 5 items on adc with the only change that you get a sash upgrade is fucking stupid. The only role itemization that has improved is the support since then(which is even kind of arguable since the old ward bots or getting items was interesting decision) and the junglers got jungle items which cant really say if it is better.Everything else is the same. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
On July 13 2015 05:06 nafta wrote: ok they come but either suck or aren't enough.I also have been playing since s1 and building literally the same 5 items on adc with the only change that you get a sash upgrade is fucking stupid. The only role itemization that has improved is the support since then(which is even kind of arguable since the old ward bots or getting items was interesting decision) and the junglers got jungle items which cant really say if it is better.Everything else is the same. When your role is to deal the most damage, you will build the items that enables that. Tanks have choices because they have to account for the other team's damage type but ADCs are always gonna be pigeoned-hole in their builds as long as their job is to deal damage. You still see many times more variety now than S1 or S2 when it was just IE/PD for most ADC or Trinity for Corki/Ezreal. Now you see some ADCs build BOTRK, Muramana, and hurricane. Yes these are niche items, but they have great synergies with certain champs kit which is what Riot has been doing with some of the newer champ release. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On July 13 2015 04:34 Caiada wrote: Never mind that almost all mages end up with less AP unless they are tear/roa based. Pushing for better AP build paths and more utility, probably not the hugest buff ever. https://www.reddit.com/r/RiotFreeLoL/comments/3ckqvl/math_of_the_new_ap_items/ tl;dl - Assuming Deathcap / Zhonya's / Luden's / Void, an AP champion is only down 19AP. While some items did have their AP lowered, Deathcap's multiplier has gone up. On July 13 2015 04:43 iCanada wrote: Maybe they are making over AD items? Honestly, I thought it was stupid too, why did AP items need to have smooth buildups in the first place? Riot doesn't really get the difference between cost efficient, slot efficient, and etc in item slots. Xyph said he wanted to do a pass on AD, but it was a much more difficult task because AD doesn't just focus on ADC so there is a lot more to take into account. Obviously, it requires an AS and Crit pass aswell. I don't have an issue with how they changed the AP items, I just think it's something they should have done during the offseason. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2015 05:17 AsianEcksDragon wrote: When your role is to deal the most damage, you will build the items that enables that. Tanks have choices because they have to account for the other team's damage type but ADCs are always gonna be pigeoned-hole in their builds as long as their job is to deal damage. You still see many times more variety now than S1 or S2 when it was just IE/PD for most ADC or Trinity for Corki/Ezreal. Now you see some ADCs build BOTRK, Muramana, and hurricane. Yes these are niche items, but they have great synergies with certain champs kit which is what Riot has been doing with some of the newer champ release. IMO its the niche-ness that is part of the problem, also that Trinity doesn't work with IBG is a problem for Trinity ADCs. Generally, ADCs dislike their itemization because they usually feel that their "big" choices are BT vs. Blade and Sash vs. Banshees. Hexdrinker generally sucks, and Brut/Ghostblade seems to only be a Lucian thing. Manamune, Hurricane, Zephyr, Essense Reaver, and to an extent BOTRK/TF all have anti-synergy with IE, which is the core of the ADC's power. Its like if DCap's bonus didn't work with the AP on Luden's, Guise, Rylias, WOTA, and Zhonyas. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
And BOTRK/Hurricane/Manamune/ER have synergy with IE, just not the MOST synergy is what you're trying to say. Anything that boost AD and AS have synergy with IE. It's not like AP champs don't have niche items like Nashors. I feel like the most recent item change makes stacking pure AP + Void Staff the best build. Seraph, Deathcap, and Luden are simply way too good together. I can't bring myself to go back to any of the Codex builds. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
There are now 4 100 AP items. RoA/Rylai's/Luden's/Zhonya's. They can all be slotted in each other's place depending on need. Dcap is arguably too crucial but it's just one slot and can vary based on champ and the specific synergies. CDR has varying value and is easy to cap on in like 4 different forms. Runes, boots, codex item. It's much less constraining than crit. Speaking of CDR, it's still worth it. Now moreso, arguably. Morello's quick build up puts you ahead of the exceedingly expensive tear build for about 1000 gold and CDR is an important stat in a lot of highly-picked mages' kits. Tear stacking also varies a lot and can be pretty damn slow. Luden's is now more than ever terrifically overrated outside of burst/poke. Many champions will make use of the Rylai's/Liandry's interaction (and 700 health) a lot more than we will 150 damage on one rotation. I'm too lazy to do math, but I'm pretty sure Morello (or Tear if you make good use/don't need CDR, I suppose)/Dcap/Void/Rylai/Liandry's is the best build in the game on most champs right now into any reasonably tanky team. Skip Liandry's for Luden's on poke champs into squishy targets, Zhonya's if you're going into Zed or some shit. | ||
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geekfighter
Philippines8 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2015 06:38 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I don't think anyone would really want Trinity and IBG to synergize. It's gonna be S2 Trinity x100 and bruisers will all build it whereas for ADC, only Ezreal would enjoy the benefit. And BOTRK/Hurricane/Manamune/ER have synergy with IE, just not the MOST synergy is what you're trying to say. Anything that boost AD and AS have synergy with IE. It's not like AP champs don't have niche items like Nashors. I feel like the most recent item change makes stacking pure AP + Void Staff the best build. Seraph, Deathcap, and Luden are simply way too good together. I can't bring myself to go back to any of the Codex builds. Nashors is the exception for AP itemization, especially now. On July 13 2015 07:20 Caiada wrote: The biggest problem is IE. Crit is central but needs at least two very expensive and pigeonholed items for the maximum value. That combined with BT being overwhelmingly efficient as a third item and LW being required means you've got one slot with actual choice. It needs a big rework they're not prepared to do, probably not even in pre-season. Its not just that, its the crappiness of the last slot items (generally), such that most of the time you can't effectively build them first-4th as an item. Its like, Got IE/PD/LW/BT(BOTRK) should I go for Sash or Banshees? Hurricane first is bad, hurricane 2nd-5th is bad on all non-Kalista champs. Zephyr is bad except as a situational boots replacement. Merc Scimitar is bad until at least 4th item (only good AD active or aura) Maw is bad. Muramana is bad on all but 2 ADCs, is core on those 2, but ends up gimping their overall DPS because they dont build IE. Ghostblade is good at item 1/2 on some champions, but gimps your 3+item builds. FM, BC, Reaver, all pretty much bad. Entropy would be good, but is unavailable. Hydra would be interesting as item 1 or 3+, but is unavailable. Yup. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Pretty much needs a wholesale rework. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:02 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l, he hates that item so much It's a pretty good argument though. It's the same argument riot used when they removed bulwark. Any item that must be built on all champions within a role in 100% of games should be seriously examined, IMO. List probably includes deathcap, IE, void staff and LW for me. Sightstone is maybe okay. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay. Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy. Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking. | ||
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