On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
On July 10 2015 11:47 TheHumanSensation wrote: Well, it's flat-out better right at the start (+5 on-hit), and it stacks faster than it did before, so you must mean post-sated devourer.
You get 3 Sated hits (180 on hit) for every 2 old-devourer hits, so you'd need 90 on-hit (65 stacks) to break even, assuming you have no other on-hits.
It definitely takes more than 10 minutes to hit 65 stacks of old devourer from the moment you purchased it. 30 minute mark (as you say) doesn't seem too unreasonable, but I did forget about the W and E damage. W is 20 on-hit, and E is 2.5% max HP (say 37.5 on-hit, vs a target with 1500 max HP).
With just +W you need to hit 100 on-hit (75 stacks). Against a target with 1500HP and your E on them, you need 118.75 on-hit (94 stacks) to break even.
So with about 100 stacks by them end of the game, you actually barely catch-up.
Unsure of how dragon form Q interacts with this, though.
so it's only better through midgame and worse at extended fights due to losing tons of bonus damage when her spells are on cooldown? shyv was probably good enough to justify her doing less damage but some of the other junglers like nocturne, skarner, reksai and maybe phoenix udyr are probably in the same boat or worse off.
the item seems to be a lot better obviously for champions that are building more than just botrk + devourer for on hits. if you are playing from behind against another devourer character i think this item is too forgiving.
On July 11 2015 05:56 EdwinVanDota wrote: Probably I missed something, but sometimes on the new Devourer I seem to loose a lot of Attack speed and instead of a purple wolf a brown one is there. After this one kindahow dies I get the Attack speed back, Is there some hidden feature I didn't get?
it might be a bug, i think i read something yesterday about devourer dropping attack speed but i can't find it atm.
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
it should be a lot closer to 10-15 minutes because kills and assists gave you 2 stacks and you'd be constantly clearing out enemy camps as well as your own. the window is definitely on the smaller side
On July 11 2015 05:08 Caiada wrote: I'd take Hydra over Tforce 99 times out of 100, especially with Sated.
why hydra? i don't think sated devourer benefits from the lifesteal very much on the phantom hit and the aoe damage is less useful than triforce Qs
Double-hitting with 22% lifesteal is a lot of sustain. The biggest things are Burnout's AD ratio and the cost though. 400 less cost for more damage, especially more teamfight damage, and much better splitting. You're basically only losing some health and a very minor amount of single-target burst. Buy a health crystal with that 400 gold and you're much better off.
Though, I'd still recommend full tank after BotRK. Get a Mallet with the gold instead. But if I wanted to win skirmishes single-handedly and laugh at any single person they sent after me, that's what I'd do.
Shyv has 3 different onhits once she has BotRK. And they reduce Q CD. That is an *insane* amount of utility out of new Devourer. She's got a 50% plus uptime on W/E as well.
On July 11 2015 06:21 cLutZ wrote: Just laned against a Smite Vayne. She got that devourer in the end! However, our Lucian was already 6/0/1 and my Janna was 1/1/6.
This patch is the worst for people taking smite when they shouldn't... 4smites pls no.
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
it should be a lot closer to 10-15 minutes because kills and assists gave you 2 stacks and you'd be constantly clearing out enemy camps as well as your own. the window is definitely on the smaller side
Do you have or know of any VODs of Jungle Shyvana with Old Devourer? I'd like to try to actually measure this if at all possible, because while I have some strong reservations about your claims I'm not one to dismiss them outright.
I'm just going sated into 3 tank items, dunno how you guys can afford any damage after sated on a melee champ with no range or cc or burst damage or gapclosers lol mallet/botrk/trinity are all good id only ever go hydra if its like orianna and they have to clump up o something
22% lifesteal is nothing probably 40 hp or something when you have 4k and are getting crit for 400 a second by adc
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
it should be a lot closer to 10-15 minutes because kills and assists gave you 2 stacks and you'd be constantly clearing out enemy camps as well as your own. the window is definitely on the smaller side
Do you have or know of any VODs of Jungle Shyvana with Old Devourer? I'd like to try to actually measure this if at all possible, because while I have some strong reservations about your claims I'm not one to dismiss them outright.
is the only thing i can immediately find. 67 stacks @ 30 minutes
i'd love it if stacks showed in old match history but unfortunately they don't so i can't pull anything out of my own matches.
a full jungle clear after shyv has botrk + devourer is something like 45-50 seconds. so you have from then until the next respawn to take enemy camps or gank and stack even faster
On July 11 2015 06:36 Slayer91 wrote: I'm just going sated into 3 tank items, dunno how you guys can afford any damage after sated on a melee champ with no range or cc or burst damage or gapclosers lol mallet/botrk/trinity are all good id only ever go hydra if its like orianna and they have to clump up o something
22% lifesteal is nothing probably 40 hp or something when you have 4k and are getting crit for 400 a second by adc
the idea is that she gets a bunch of free resistances and armor in dragon form, has an amazing chase potential. randuins + 1 other tank item is usually sufficient. by the end of the game your goal isn't usually to live longer but to kill their carries faster.
On July 11 2015 04:58 Frolossus wrote: the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
Nope!
On July 10 2015 11:47 TheHumanSensation wrote: Well, it's flat-out better right at the start (+5 on-hit), and it stacks faster than it did before, so you must mean post-sated devourer.
You get 3 Sated hits (180 on hit) for every 2 old-devourer hits, so you'd need 90 on-hit (65 stacks) to break even, assuming you have no other on-hits.
It definitely takes more than 10 minutes to hit 65 stacks of old devourer from the moment you purchased it. 30 minute mark (as you say) doesn't seem too unreasonable, but I did forget about the W and E damage. W is 20 on-hit, and E is 2.5% max HP (say 37.5 on-hit, vs a target with 1500 max HP).
With just +W you need to hit 100 on-hit (75 stacks). Against a target with 1500HP and your E on them, you need 118.75 on-hit (94 stacks) to break even.
So with about 100 stacks by them end of the game, you actually barely catch-up.
Unsure of how dragon form Q interacts with this, though.
so it's only better through midgame and worse at extended fights due to losing tons of bonus damage when her spells are on cooldown?
It's better earlygame as well (depending on how quickly you can get it in the first place, this may stretch the definition of earlygame). But as Gahlo said you're missing the size of the powerspike.
For this catch-up period, new devourer is always better and peaks at being like way way better right at the sated transformation via auto-attacks alone (180 vs 110 over 2 punches). This is +70 relatively, and another +50 or so with W and E up, making it more than twice as good at this point. Lategame old devourer is not twice as good as new devourer until way too late. Even when W and E are down, you need 180 on-hit (155 stacks) to double the new devourer, for comparison.
Regarding W and E uptime, let's take your average of 100 stacks with old devourer. Devourer on-hit: 60x3 (180) vs 125x2 (250) :: old wins by 70 per 3 attacks W on-hit: 20 E on-hit: 41.125 or higher (monte's numbers) Total with stuff up: 363.375 vs 372.25 :: old wins by ~9 per 3 attacks So with estimated 50% uptime on W and E old devourer comes up to an average of being ahead by ~40 damage per 3 autos lategame. This powerspike is much smaller but still kind of significant I guess?
I'm also in testing on how devourer works with dragon Q
is the only thing i can immediately find. 67 stacks @ 30 minutes
a full jungle clear after shyv has botrk + devourer is something like 45-50 seconds. so you have from then until the next respawn to take enemy camps or gank and stack even faster
I'll do a more thorough analysis later, but at a glance she finished Devourer and reentered the jungle at 7:30, meaning it took her 22.5 minutes after completing the item to farm those 67 stacks. That's in line with the timeframe I was suggesting before.
is the only thing i can immediately find. 67 stacks @ 30 minutes
a full jungle clear after shyv has botrk + devourer is something like 45-50 seconds. so you have from then until the next respawn to take enemy camps or gank and stack even faster
I'll do a more thorough analysis later, but at a glance she finished Devourer and reentered the jungle at 7:30, meaning it took her 22.5 minutes after completing the item to farm those 67 stacks. That's in line with the timeframe I was suggesting before.
sated devourer finishes currently at around 20 minutes that's a 10 minute difference.
you are counting from when devourer is finished not the difference between 30 and 67
not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
Who the fuck is going damage Shyv without being fed? In which case going bruiser is 9/10 times the better buy off efficiency alone.
On July 11 2015 08:21 iCanada wrote: Honestly, as someone who plays Shyvana a lot and has since she was released...
I think Cinderhulk is better than Devourer.
Depends 100% on comp. Also, if you're toplane, don't build Devourer. But that should be obvious. I also don't think you should pick jungle Shyv in just about any situation where you're forced to go full tank, because there are like 10 jungle champs that do that job but with actual threat and CC.
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
i think it is more concerning for characters that itemize and play similarly but weren't already shyvana tier. i'll continue to play the same exact way as before it's just less optimal now.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
you run MS quints, blue smite, exhaust, randuins, bork and whore red buff. people don't escape and you 3 hit squishies
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
i think she is strongest as a late game carry type of character similar but better than a jax or irelia. she comfortable 1v3s or better at the end of the game.
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
Who the fuck is going damage Shyv without being fed? In which case going bruiser is 9/10 times the better buy off efficiency alone.
On July 11 2015 08:21 iCanada wrote: Honestly, as someone who plays Shyvana a lot and has since she was released...
I think Cinderhulk is better than Devourer.
Depends 100% on comp. Also, if you're toplane, don't build Devourer. But that should be obvious. I also don't think you should pick jungle Shyv in just about any situation where you're forced to go full tank, because there are like 10 jungle champs that do that job but with actual threat and CC.
I wouldn't reccomend full tank Shy either. i think you want a BotRK. I just think you can gank better with Cinderhulk, and your farming game is the same. You aren't going to just kill anyone in the middle of their lane, you're going to need to take a tower shot or 2. Just is what it is. (Speaking of which, Shyvana+Raka dives are ridiculous.)
If you are picking Jungle Shy for Teamfight threat, imo you are doing it wrong regardless. She is a skirmisher; Iv1, 1v2, 2v2, 2v3 etc she is pretty strong, but in 5v5 she is just underwhelming imo. Midgame she is one of the tankiest champions in the game and is also a huge damage threat regardless how many items she has. But that falls of for sure.
it's worth noting that she is one of the most controlling junglers in the game and very good at strangling the enemy jungler out of farm. it is not uncommon to be 2-3 levels above gank oriented or tank junglers. basically anyone who isn't also a devourer jungler. she clears camps stupidly quickly and can duel almost everyone from 12-15 minutes to the end of the game. i think she is one of the strongest counter junglers right now.
EPT
