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On May 12 2015 05:29 Alaric wrote:
So, legit question. How do you play against Vlad?
With Irelia, I got him down to a third of his HP at level 2 (I was 3) by pushing the lane a bit.
He popped his potion and got back over health between that, Q and E before the waves met again and I found myself outtraded because of minion aggro.
I can't activate Hiten Style too early or just Q to him after a trade because he'll simply pool, and between the 2s duration and the slow (I won't get on top of him after that because base MS too close) I basically get 2 autos and the spell is over. If I Q to him after he emerges, sitting in the middle of his minion wave, I'll lose automatically because minions + his cooldowns are back up and my W is about to expire, giving him free harass on my way out then ~10 seconds of free farming/harass/sustain since I don't have Q and W available.
And that's at levels 3~5. Once he backs and has pieces of revolver and a lower cd on Q I cannot outtrade him at all unless I ult, and if I do that he'll sustain enough that he'll survive the next trade during my cooldowns, meaning I can never kill him (ideally I'd want to trade, wait for cds then all-in with ult, but if I do that I'll just die when he all-ins back since he won the first trade).
The shitter I was against messed up several Es (paying health for nothing since he didn't have spellvamp yet) and Ws, later he even completely missed his ult, had AP marks/quints, and scaling armour/MR runes so he was theorically at his weakest in these first few levels and I still couldn't beat him enough to make a difference.
Yet people say all the time that Irelia beats Vlad 1v1.
How do you do it then? Stack MR? Run MS quints to chase him? Use some dumb pride to pretend it's a 1v1 when you actually need the jungler to win?
You probably should pop hiten immediately in every trade. and go in nearly every time its off CD.
Vlad pool will have a 26 second cd compared to a 15s hiten cd. Hiten lasts 6 seconds, pool lasts two. If he pops pool immediately thats actually totally ok, it takes 20% of his current HP for pool, thats a lot, you can completely disengage and you've already won a trade. Ideally you should be closing on him via Q to a low minion, beating on him with hiten until he pools, then either following up with Q to gap close and keep hitting or just walk away depending on lane position.
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people say vlad sucks until lvl 7 and then gets better but I find it to be quite the opposite,
melees like irelia can't do much early so he can push you down if he wants to, and then you can start wrecking him at lvl 5+
you just q a low hp creep E W auto auto q auto etc and then you just allin with ult next time use bushes to deaggro him just like a cannon minion since he wont chase you in there
vlad is the sort of champ that does the same damage in a harass as he does in an all in (without ult) so going from getting harassed to just going in on him is just minion aggro damage mostly.
a good trick is to watch for when they are stacking E up and attack them inbetween the CDs. No stacks of E vlad does no damage.
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On May 11 2015 03:25 Sufficiency wrote:
While you guys are debating the marginal difference over Bladed Armor / Unyielding, I am just sitting here gaining free Elo with Nunu and not care about minor mastery differences.
Inspired by this post I decided to play a game of support Nunu. Quite possible the most fun I've had in ages, stealing Amumu's first blue buff while our Gragas took his red and big monsters topside was glorious.
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United States37500 Posts
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The Ryze rework really worked out well!
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/hJV6C/fa85a79190.png)
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I'm late to the discussion, but doesn't common sense say that bladed armor beats unyielding? You're a jungler, you get hit by creeps a lot more than champions except in some incredibly niche cases. I understand getting unyielding on cinderhulk toplaners, but that's about it.
We have all these weird cases where you end up fighting a champ, and in those given you've saved hp and time by clearing faster with bladed armor you probably have more hp anyways, and that amount most likely exceeds the amount saved by unyielding. The only exception I can think of realistically is lvl 1 or 2 invades.
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Yeah, I played a couple of jungle Nunu games recently. He does retarded amounts of damage when you build full AP and rush Luden's first. Tank Nunu is pretty stupid overall. It's just like St Vicious says, you just walk around like a retard and let the enemy engage on you.
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On May 12 2015 07:27 Ansibled wrote:The Ryze rework really worked out well!
His lategame needs to be even better than his old lategame because his laning is weaker and his pushing is no better. Like, he needs to be Maokai tanky with Cassio damage.
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On May 12 2015 06:02 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote:
He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower. by that logic we all should use unyielding instead of bladed armor since pretty much every pro jungler uses it and they clearly know best
I said this yesterday but I'll say it again.
Professional junglers are not playing the same game that you or Scip are.
In pro games right now, there are often 2 or 3 man fights over buffs at level 1. In that situation, unyielding matters. This almost never happens in solo queue.
In pro games right now, the top player often does several camps with the jungler. In that situation you are trading damage so bladed armor is less effective. This never happens in solo queue.
In pro games junglers will sit in a bush not farming for 20-30 seconds waiting for a countergank. In arranged play this can be a very good decision, because you have comms so your team can react on it immediately. In solo queue it is rarely a better decision than just farming more, where you would get value from bladed armor.
In pro games junglers are expected to invest into wards and sightstone, and will have less gold in resists, so enchanted armor will be less value than it is in solo queue.
Pro jungle and solo queue jungle are very different. Pro players take their pro game mastery pages into solo queue because it helps them practice for the pro games. They are not the best things to do to climb elo in solo queue.
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If I pop E, W and Q on every trade with Vlad (and even another Q if I have to use it to go on a minion) I'll go oom ridiculously fast as Irelia though, her mana pool makes you wish you were jungling Amumu without blue instead. I guess I could try just autoing him with Hiten without the E, if he replies I stun him, otherwise I chase (but pre-Phage you don't run fast enough, meh).
Letting him push is dangerous because he can kill waves quickly and snowball his, if it gets close to your tower he'll just harass you while you last hit, with too big a health deficit to be able to trade afterwards. I guess it's a question of wave control so you give him maybe one or two minion, after the waves meet, so he doesn't have time to start killing your next wave before they meet and force you to take 4+ minions' worth of aggro more than him. If he pushes like a retard at level 1 it's hard to punish without taking harass (and he won't take aggro because his aa's projectile speed is slow, kinda like Zyra), gotta find a way to prevent that (sure it makes him food for jungler but I can't rely on that).
Him being close enough to a low health minion, right after casting E (which I didn't eat), and without the wave being too much in his favor sound like super specific conditions to jump him though, especially if you add "after Hiten comes back up but before he has pool".
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Noooooooo. Where will NALCS get it's dose of "I'm old, I don't give a fuck."
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ugh, saint senpai why? nunu is so strong right now... and you guys did pretty good for your first split...
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I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
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On May 12 2015 09:45 sob3k wrote:
I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
I say, give him the Shyvana treatment. Make his Q pass-through like her E. Can get lowered damage or something it doesn't matter. But at least it will let him do something
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EPT
