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On May 11 2015 20:38 Slayer91 wrote:From what I looked up it works post resists making it stronger than recovery because of the all in potential, not for a jungler of course. But if unyielding works the way people are saying it is its high enough value to justify the dumpster block points. Also, after the MSI finals, a quick analysis on diversity of champs + Show Spoiler [MSIpicksonly] +
Thought I'd gather a list of picks and bans that were used.
27 champs.
16 used in every pick phase. Basically recycling the same champs with 16 used per draft,
if we ignore a few outliers like the tf ban, eve pick, morg pick, lulu pick, leona pick, ezreal pick its more like 23 reliable contested picks with 16 of them being used. rito pls.
There is something to be said about player limits though since a pro player seems to usually have a pool of about 5 champs he is consistent with.
Lucian/Leona picked specifically for that combo (Leona passive works well with lucians double shot)
In addition with respect to the topic of obvious OPs, list of champs picked and banned every game or just unpicked once:
Hecarim picked/banned
Gragas picked/banned
Kalista picked/banned
Leblanc picked/bannned
Cassio picked/banned
Urgot picked/banned
Maokai picked/banned
Rek'Sai picked/banned
Jinx(left out once)
Nunu(left out once)
Annie(left out once)
Urgot and annie are the only real surprises that appear so much in competitive but not in solo q.
AP:
TF(Ban only)
LeBlanc
Cassio
Orianna
Azir
--
Lulu
Kassadin
Jungle:
Nunu
Reksai
Gragas
Sejuani
--
Eve
Top:
Hecarim
Maokai
Gnar
Rumble
Support:
Alistar
Annie
Thresh
--
Naut
Leona
ADC:
Kalista
Jinx
Corki
Urgot
Sivir
--
Ezreal
Lucian
The diversity for top/jungle is about 4 picks 2 of which are usually banned LOL
Was this just for the finals? Interesting to compare EDG/SKT pick/ban priority w/ the whole tourny
Heres all picks/bans http://www.goldper10.com/stat/1532-msi-picks-bans.html
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The two Bard picks are hilarious. I doubt he'll ever be a competitive support but the fact that some people in the scene want to try him out makes me think someone could get good enough at him to overcome his overwhelming disadvantages.
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On May 12 2015 00:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
The two Bard picks are hilarious. I doubt he'll ever be a competitive support but the fact that some people in the scene want to try him out makes me think someone could get good enough at him to overcome his overwhelming disadvantages.
From the pros I talked to, they actually believe he is in a pretty good shape after the recent changes, but teams just don't want to bother learning to play with him when other supports are Good Enough.
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I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
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On May 12 2015 02:24 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 00:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
The two Bard picks are hilarious. I doubt he'll ever be a competitive support but the fact that some people in the scene want to try him out makes me think someone could get good enough at him to overcome his overwhelming disadvantages. From the pros I talked to, they actually believe he is in a pretty good shape after the recent changes, but teams just don't want to bother learning to play with him when other supports are Good Enough.
He could work as a roaming support, which he is likely the best champion to play that way, but his 2v2 laning does not seem as powerful as the more traditional supports.
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On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote:
I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
you're not clearing your whole jungle
you just doing 3 camps
if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless
bad mastery imo
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I don't think he's a particularally good roaming support either, he has less damage and lockdown pre ult than something like Annie or Blitz (or Naut) so even though chimes give some exp leaving lane delays your ult which is when I would say he "comes online"
not to say that the aformentioned don't have good ults also but they are better at ganking lanes than him.
I actually think Bard is really good but his passive is pretty ho hum until you get a bunch of chimes and his W being pretty bad really holds him back. what he does bring is pretty high pick potential mid/late as well as Warwick levels of fight cleanup (if your team is winning nobody will leave alive). I would say he's decent to strong in team fights, especially as the game gets late. Honestly the big problem is W, the heal is so bad for on demand and the speed buff doesn't warrent a full ability, they need to give it something like Scaling speed duration on w ranks if they want him to be top tier (I'm not sure if they do)
honestly I don't know why they gave him a heal in the first place it makes no sense conceptually to me.
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On May 12 2015 03:39 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote:
I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP. you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo
Why would I ever want to full clear my jungle early game on Lee Sin / Nidalee?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 12 2015 03:52 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 03:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote:
I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP. you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo Why would I ever want to full clear my jungle early game on Lee Sin / Nidalee?
because you can
sometimes there's just nowhere to gank
also you'd be a lot better player if you considered 6 second difference in a 3 camp clear at the cost of ONLY 3 MASTERY POINTS a HUGE WORTH rather than "not a big deal"
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On May 12 2015 03:56 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 03:52 Ansibled wrote:On May 12 2015 03:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote:
I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp
Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP. you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo Why would I ever want to full clear my jungle early game on Lee Sin / Nidalee? because you can sometimes there's just nowhere to gank also you'd be a lot better player if you considered 6 second difference in a 3 camp clear at the cost of ONLY 3 MASTERY POINTS a HUGE WORTH rather than "not a big deal"
Not to mention you'd be taking tough skin regardless, so it's only 1 point expended.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Yeah, I read that post, and I was like, sweet, Ansibled proved that Bladed Armor is worth it, and then he's like, actually 20HP and 6 seconds off a 3camp clear is totally not worth a mastery point. ????
Oh yeah you could just do Scuttle afterwards and make up the difference. Implying that as a jungler you aren't already contesting Scuttle, it's only something that non-Bladed Armor junglers take apparently.
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all fine if u had 1 spare point but u dont with 21-9 masteries u have to sacrifice unyielding
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On May 12 2015 04:50 kongoline wrote:
all fine if u had 1 spare point but u dont with 21-9 masteries u have to sacrifice unyielding
Even on a 3 camp clear giving only a 20hp difference, that would cover 10 uses of Unyielding in the ensuing gank.
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So, legit question. How do you play against Vlad?
With Irelia, I got him down to a third of his HP at level 2 (I was 3) by pushing the lane a bit.
He popped his potion and got back over health between that, Q and E before the waves met again and I found myself outtraded because of minion aggro.
I can't activate Hiten Style too early or just Q to him after a trade because he'll simply pool, and between the 2s duration and the slow (I won't get on top of him after that because base MS too close) I basically get 2 autos and the spell is over. If I Q to him after he emerges, sitting in the middle of his minion wave, I'll lose automatically because minions + his cooldowns are back up and my W is about to expire, giving him free harass on my way out then ~10 seconds of free farming/harass/sustain since I don't have Q and W available.
And that's at levels 3~5. Once he backs and has pieces of revolver and a lower cd on Q I cannot outtrade him at all unless I ult, and if I do that he'll sustain enough that he'll survive the next trade during my cooldowns, meaning I can never kill him (ideally I'd want to trade, wait for cds then all-in with ult, but if I do that I'll just die when he all-ins back since he won the first trade).
The shitter I was against messed up several Es (paying health for nothing since he didn't have spellvamp yet) and Ws, later he even completely missed his ult, had AP marks/quints, and scaling armour/MR runes so he was theorically at his weakest in these first few levels and I still couldn't beat him enough to make a difference.
Yet people say all the time that Irelia beats Vlad 1v1.
How do you do it then? Stack MR? Run MS quints to chase him? Use some dumb pride to pretend it's a 1v1 when you actually need the jungler to win?
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that 20hp doesnt really change much it only matters early game and most of the top tier junglers will have max hp with pots/sustain anyway when they gank
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On May 12 2015 05:30 kongoline wrote:
that 20hp doesnt really change much it only matters early game and most of the top tier junglers will have max hp with pots/sustain anyway when they gank
If the 20hp doesn't matter, then how does the hp that you'd save with unyielding help?
If the health doesn't matter, then the only thing both masteries can do is save time. Only Bladed Armor does that.
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He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
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On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote:
He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
And even then, I'm pretty sure it works on Dragon and Baron as well.
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On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote:
He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
by that logic we all should use unyielding instead of bladed armor since pretty much every pro jungler uses it and they clearly know best
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Everybody can miss minor differences, especially with masteries. Why not prefer actual math and reasoning :s
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EPT
