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On May 11 2015 13:33 Sonnington wrote:So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results http://imgur.com/KrCWfGN,miIVven,xKKMRXsI was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives.
Bladed Armor doesn't kill.
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Ekko's ult sounds almost like Weaver's.I like it. It doesn't seem as original as someone like Singed or Nasus which can affect your entire playstyle but it's still nice. And they added another black champion. Maybe the community will stop calling Lucian Usain Bolt or Lebron or Obama.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements.
well yeah, who knows?
I do
it's the most insane mastery in the fucking game for a jungler
On May 11 2015 13:55 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:52 Gahlo wrote:On May 11 2015 13:33 Sonnington wrote:So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results http://imgur.com/KrCWfGN,miIVven,xKKMRXsI was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives. Bladed Armor doesn't kill. is it just me or does gromp buff not kill big monsters either? I've always noticed when I jungle the little monsters die to it but never the big ones.
Correct. Just for the record, your machete DoT will never kill a big monster either, but red buff will.
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On May 11 2015 11:36 Kaethis wrote:
Can we just agree to disagree and move on?
Its not really agreeing to disagree. You are factually wrong. And rather than spend ten minutes checking to verify that you are factually wrong, the moderation staff would rather jump up and down all night talking about how everyone is entitled to their opinion even when it is completely wrong.
User was warned for this post
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On May 11 2015 16:14 krndandaman wrote:i'm not talking about length of game because of late game ad carries. i'm talking about length of game because 'damage dealt to champions' isn't too meaningful if say ashe has an average game length of 40 minutes while say varus has an average game length of 35 minutes. even then, poke is an important factor too. the top 5 champions there are all strong poke champions so its no wonder they have the highest average damage dealt.
I should have clarified. The expected value is the integral of the value multiplied by the density at that point. So the smaler the area of "spikes" above the expected value the higher density that area has to be.
Which is to say that in all likelihood it looks like Ashe has comparatively short game lengths because the area where she is above her expected win % is smaller (and more towards the early game) than other champions. For which I gave two examples from the top damage list and one example of a hyper lategame carry.
If Ashe has comparatively short game lengths this should bias her "damage dealt to champions" number down because she has less time to do that damage. So if her damage is still high that is indicative of actual high damage.
As for poke, q is great poke, but would you consider Ashe a poke champion?
It's not foolproof but I don't have the avg game time for champions like sufficiency does. So I can't actually look at "dps" from recent patches.
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On May 11 2015 13:55 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:52 Gahlo wrote:On May 11 2015 13:33 Sonnington wrote:So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results http://imgur.com/KrCWfGN,miIVven,xKKMRXsI was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives. Bladed Armor doesn't kill. is it just me or does gromp buff not kill big monsters either? I've always noticed when I jungle the little monsters die to it but never the big ones.
Doesn't. Makes it awkward for Nautilus because of his slow-ass base AS + long animation so you waste a bunch of time finishing the small monsters "manually", and E is on a long-ish cd early game (and the shield breaks easily and if you kite backwards you don't get the AoE damage on the small monsters on the buff camps).
Nautilus kinda needs to smite red to not drop super low while doing raptors (I'll try doing raptors -> red but I'm pretty sure it will require a smite on red either way; I don't remember well if it affects the smite charge mechanic, I think not though), and that's with Bladed armour. Not taking it would be reducing your dps by so much it's not even funny.
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Kaethis said: "As it is now it literally never makes a difference in how fast you kill monsters because you still need to auto them."
This is completely inane, damage is completely useless if you can't last hit with it? If you are annoyed at the 1hp creeps just time your autos better so they last hit the target. Bladed armour is best against the big creeps anyway where you don't leave them at low hp anyway.
Also: "Unyielding is good at all points in the game" If bladed armour helps you kill a minion 1 auto hit earlier that'll save you a decent amount of hp in most situations at most points in the game. Considering you're clearing a lot of high hp monsters 1% of current hp probably doing like 100-200 damage a camp later in the game. That means as long as you are jungling bladed armour saves you a small amount of time and hp which makes is relevant for most of the game in the context of 1 mastery point value
Say what you want about Ketara's whine posts, but Kaethis said something that is completely fucking wrong and agreeing with him on this is completely fucking wrong.
You can argue that unyielding's teamfights merits make it worthwhile over bladed armour but saying that bladed armour doesn't help you clear faster is just fucking stupid. Not only are his claims obviously and demonstrably false, they were demonstrated to be false already by sonnington, which was gracious of him; because to me having to prove that having something that does damage to monsters makes clear faster is like having to prove last hitting minions gives you gold.
If unyielding works post resists and works on cinderhulk etc then it's actually probably worth taking over most points in the defense tree. Against a 200 AD opponent with 200 armour unyielding+block would be equivalent to about 12.5 armour. Against a 30 damage cinderhulk with 100 magic resist unyielding is equivalent to about 30 magic resist. It's 3 points for unyielding+block and 3 points for 5 flat armour or mr. (2 points for 5% bonus resists which is breakeven with the flat at +66 total resists including ability rune and mastery resists which you'd expect to get pretty fast on most tanks)
my math is probably wrong since i forgot block works before resists right? but unyielding is worded the same way meaning you'd think they'd both be pre-resists. In that case unyielding becomes 1/2 or 1/3 as strong but still quite good.
reddit tells me they work post resists but iirc dorans shield works pre resists.
That said, most points in the defense tree are quite strong. I think the only weak ones are second wind (good on soraka though), recovery, and the feeder shield.
Very underrated is Reinforced armour. An ADC with IE+PD crits 55% of the time for 2.5*damage meaning its about 75% of their damage meaning its a 7.5% damage reduction against ADCs who go IE+PD.
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I think block is pre resists and unyielding is post resists, but I am not sure.
In your armor math, really what you'd be comparing is 3 points for block and unyielding vs 2 enchanted armor and something high in the defense tree, like a point from perserverence or legendary guardian or whatever. You can't compare it to the flat armor because like you said, reinforced armor is pretty broken op.
Since we're only talking about 9/21 junglers, its safe to assume they will build pretty tanky. Its normal to get something like 100-150 bonus armor and 50-100 bonus MR in a game. So if we used legendary armor for the easy comparison, taking enchanted armor + legendary armor would be worth at max around 12.5 armor and 7.5 mr. In a more resist favored champion or build it can be higher than that.
Since going lots of HP items on tanks is a big thing these days, if unyielding really is that good vs cinderhulk, its quite possibly a better option than other things later on in the tree. But you should never be taking it over bladed armor, and block by itself is never better than recovery/enchanted armor, which are the two points I've argued in this silly debate.
Also teut, recovery is actually quite strong early game, it just falls off very hard. In general its better than block point for point, since even laners are typically not taking more than 1 auto every 5 seconds early in the game. But after the first couple backs, the relevance of HP regen as a stat declines a lot.
I kind of don't like these masteries. Block/recovery/enchanted armor basically all do the same thing, they add generic tankiness, so it is possible to have broad scenarios where one is plainly better than the other. It seems counterintuitive to riots whole "meaningful choice" thing, and I imagine they are an artifact from S4 that will be changed if/when masteries are redone again.
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From what I looked up it works post resists making it stronger than recovery because of the all in potential, not for a jungler of course. But if unyielding works the way people are saying it is its high enough value to justify the dumpster block points.
Also, after the MSI finals, a quick analysis on diversity of champs
+ Show Spoiler [MSIpicksonly] +
Thought I'd gather a list of picks and bans that were used.
27 champs.
16 used in every pick phase. Basically recycling the same champs with 16 used per draft,
if we ignore a few outliers like the tf ban, eve pick, morg pick, lulu pick, leona pick, ezreal pick its more like 23 reliable contested picks with 16 of them being used. rito pls.
There is something to be said about player limits though since a pro player seems to usually have a pool of about 5 champs he is consistent with.
Lucian/Leona picked specifically for that combo (Leona passive works well with lucians double shot)
In addition with respect to the topic of obvious OPs, list of champs picked and banned every game or just unpicked once:
Hecarim picked/banned
Gragas picked/banned
Kalista picked/banned
Leblanc picked/bannned
Cassio picked/banned
Urgot picked/banned
Maokai picked/banned
Rek'Sai picked/banned
Jinx(left out once)
Nunu(left out once)
Annie(left out once)
Urgot and annie are the only real surprises that appear so much in competitive but not in solo q.
AP:
TF(Ban only)
LeBlanc
Cassio
Orianna
Azir
--
Lulu
Kassadin
Jungle:
Nunu
Reksai
Gragas
Sejuani
--
Eve
Top:
Hecarim
Maokai
Gnar
Rumble
Support:
Alistar
Annie
Thresh
--
Naut
Leona
ADC:
Kalista
Jinx
Corki
Urgot
Sivir
--
Ezreal
Lucian
The diversity for top/jungle is about 4 picks 2 of which are usually banned LOL
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+ Show Spoiler +I said it in the MSI thread before, but I think the most interesting thing to take away from MSI is the preference for beefy hard initiation supports. Janna, Nami, Morgana, Lulu all fell out of favour.
It's all about starting the fights on your own terms. Reactive plays or more skirmish style games appear unable to do enough in the teamfight tank meta.
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+ Show Spoiler +
It's just a lack of poke comps. "Protect the X" comps need to be fought with either good poke or good engage and there arent many strong poke champs that people play. People are playing lots of nunu/azir/adc and theres lots of strong engage with reksais, gragas, sej, and HG tp tops.
The strength of the ranged supports tends to be that adc+that support beats most strong assassiny/divers but if you have an engaging support turning it into a 2v2/3v3 isn't good anymore because they lack "dueling power" so to speak
Also Meiko seemed to want to play annie pretty much every game so even when they played the defense comps they just picked annie because meikos so good with her and the deft jinx+meiko annie seems to work well for them. Probably janna/morg/lulu would have been good there instead.
Not sure about nami though, nami sucks. She's like an engage support who can't contribute her hp pool to the dive, but is unreliable as a defensive support.
If people are playing comps with more poke or without strong engage you'll see them again.
In this bo5 it seemed the strong engage tanks won every time. Rumble/reksai+mid aoe engage actually lost both times it played one time against a nunu/azir comp.
Also ranged supports are good at outsustaining burst e.g if a talon or whatever jumps in janna E+ult can outheal the burst and then you win from there. If you're facing cassio+jinx or cassio+kalista backline a bit of sustain doesn't help at all while something that can burst down the cassio/kalista helps a lot more.
Also with urgot you don't want a ranged support because of lack of damage on your backline, unless its urgot+cassio.
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I don't really trust the sources on google for how unyielding and block work. Would be a fun thing to test but alas I cannot.
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Because they'll just die if you initiate on them.
Offlane and jungle usually being beefy mofos over damage threats (well there's still dumb damage on Gragas and Sej but supposedly not solo kill threat) means comps often have 2 threats to eliminate (one when you pick Urgot bot or Lulu mid and don't snowball zzz).
In that case if you initiating on the enemy's and blow it up you win the fight. Peelers (with the exceptions of Thresh who's dumb and Braum) are usually squishies, and with all that initiation that's one more target to blow up without committing big cooldowns if they step out or you can't reach the enemy carry.
Mix both and you'd rather have Leona to explode the enemy Cass and then your own frontline can't die anymore, than a Janna to protect your Azir who's not gonna get jumped on if you're the one initiating anyway.
At least that's how I see it. You can probably make a case for all the early game dives and ganks, with supports roaming even in some games without lane swaps. You'd rather just have the burst/lockdown to kill someone (or make dives/threat of counterganks scary), and the tankiness to tank 2-3 tower shots (or manage to survive if you get caught in your jungle while they set up).
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Remember we were in a period of the game where junglers and tanks were both unfarmed (lane swaps and pre-cinderhulk jungle meta) and essentially non threats so picking a diving support would have been useless when theres nobody to dive with you
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In general when peeling gets more difficult with the hard engaging tanks/well practiced teleport engages and (multiple) rightous glorys everywhere initiating becomes more valuable. It is just way easier to turn the table and engage yourself which then naturally leads to your carries being safer because your opponent could not set up the proper flanks.
+ Show Spoiler +Edit: I also agree 100% that Nami sucks.
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EPT
