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On May 11 2015 10:16 ItsFunToLose wrote:
just for clarity, I also didn't take the position that it does nothing.
I was suggesting it doesn't always do something(in response to an exasperated ketara whose mind was literally blown that someone could suggest it doesn't help). there is a difference.
Nah I just got your names mixed up. My bad.
I'd imagine the reason pro junglers don't take bladed armor is because pro games involve very little early game solo jungling. Their top laners and supports leech and they get invaded to some degree almost every game.
When you're just solo jungling early game bladed armor can increase your speed dramatically. More for some junglers than others, but I doubt there is anyone where it makes literally zero difference.
I am waiting for somebody to actually post clears to show that it doesn't help. What pisses me off is that this is one of the easiest things in the entire game to go verify with actual testing, but nobody is bothering to do so.
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On May 11 2015 10:35 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements. Welcome to GD!
I also highly suggest you stop being cheeky with your attempts at backdoor moderation too. We understand your frustrations, but not everything you disagree with is bannable or warnable, and you complaining about it throughout the forum is not going to help things.
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On May 11 2015 10:40 Lost My Will To Live wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 10:35 cLutZ wrote:On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements. Welcome to GD! I also highly suggest you stop being cheeky with your attempts at backdoor moderation too. We understand your frustrations, but not everything you disagree with is bannable or warnable, and you complaining about it throughout the forum is not going to help things.
I in no way think these people should be banned. Your comment was just naive of a regular's posting history.
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On May 11 2015 10:37 Lost My Will To Live wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 10:25 Goumindong wrote:
Also because he (and I) were warned/banned for saying something with factual and empirical supporting backing because c sheep didnt like it. But here someone says something utterly ridiculous and verifiable without testing or verifying and there is no such similar response. Okay, your statement was mostly correct. The way you used it to argue your point was pretty bad and incorrectly applied. You basically said "Ashe does good damage for an AD carry because let's just ignore all the AD carries with steroids" when we say "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid". That's just poor usage of your facts to argue a case. Did it warrant a ban? Probably not. But let's not compare the two cases, because it's absolutely not the same. We'll end this conversation here and continue what was discussed before.
That just isn't true. My point was correct and empirically shown to be so. The overal point was even more correct(than the situation here) since we were arguing about win rate at the start (Ashe has/had both high win rate and damage done to champions compared to other ADs). And saying "well you went about arguing it wrong" is really saying "well you went aboutit with a moderator who was incorrect in the vincinity"
The entire policy of "you can't be wrong" is bad but it gets worse if the people doing the moderation don't actually do the due diligence to determine what is and isn't effective.
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I would be very happy if, when people argue about something that can be verified in 10 minutes in a custom game, the moderators would actually insist on people backing up their claims with that verification, instead of allowing people to argue based on premises that are demonstrably false.
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On May 11 2015 10:39 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 10:16 ItsFunToLose wrote:
just for clarity, I also didn't take the position that it does nothing.
I was suggesting it doesn't always do something(in response to an exasperated ketara whose mind was literally blown that someone could suggest it doesn't help). there is a difference. Nah I just got your names mixed up. My bad. I'd imagine the reason pro junglers don't take bladed armor is because pro games involve very little early game solo jungling. Their top laners and supports leech and they get invaded to some degree almost every game. When you're just solo jungling early game bladed armor can increase your speed dramatically. More for some junglers than others, but I doubt there is anyone where it makes literally zero difference. I am waiting for somebody to actually post clears to show that it doesn't help. What pisses me off is that this is one of the easiest things in the entire game to go verify with actual testing, but nobody is bothering to do so.
Waiting for the end of MSI finals. I got you bb.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
oh weh have moderation discussion again. So far I saw nobody willing to take his theory into a custom game. Moderation talk stops now because its the wrong thread. I know all of you and most of you get completely defensive once you get criticism. The day I see people in here open to criticism will be the day I might think that GD thread has a purpose.
Most of the time its some stars align bullshit which is so specific that it has no real place in a real game or you guys focus on very small details but dont see the overall picture because you guys want to be right and don't want to discuss your theory. Most of you come into the discussion that you are always 100% correct.
We had this issue now for the billionth time and you guys still don't know that moderation issues go to website feedback.
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On May 11 2015 11:00 Ketara wrote:
I would be very happy if, when people argue about something that can be verified in 10 minutes in a custom game, the moderators would actually insist on people backing up their claims with that verification, instead of allowing people to argue based on premises that are demonstrably false.
Here's the point. They're not demonstrably false. They may be exaggerated claims, but that doesn't mean there isn't ANY merit to them.
On May 11 2015 10:57 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 10:37 Lost My Will To Live wrote:On May 11 2015 10:25 Goumindong wrote:
Also because he (and I) were warned/banned for saying something with factual and empirical supporting backing because c sheep didnt like it. But here someone says something utterly ridiculous and verifiable without testing or verifying and there is no such similar response. Okay, your statement was mostly correct. The way you used it to argue your point was pretty bad and incorrectly applied. You basically said "Ashe does good damage for an AD carry because let's just ignore all the AD carries with steroids" when we say "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid". That's just poor usage of your facts to argue a case. Did it warrant a ban? Probably not. But let's not compare the two cases, because it's absolutely not the same. We'll end this conversation here and continue what was discussed before. That just isn't true. My point was correct and empirically shown to be so. The overal point was even more correct(than the situation here) since we were arguing about win rate at the start (Ashe has/had both high win rate and damage done to champions compared to other ADs). And saying "well you went about arguing it wrong" is really saying "well you went aboutit with a moderator who was incorrect in the vincinity" The entire policy of "you can't be wrong" is bad but it gets worse if the people doing the moderation don't actually do the due diligence to determine what is and isn't effective.
Yeah GMD you need to stop. Here's the reason why you need to stop arguing that you were right about this. Your argument was "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid in the game" and that's why Ashe has good damage output for an AD carry. Your argument of "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid in the game" I'll give you just to make this a close argument even though there may be some questions on whether or not that's actually true. But your final statement is that because her non-ASPD steroid is the best in the game, that gives her good damage compared to other AD carries. So let's just assume your "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid in the game" is true and let's consider the other AD carries that HAVE ASPD steroids:
Jinx - ASPD steroid
Graves - ASPD steroid
Ezreal - ASPD steroid
MF - ASPD steroid
Draven - ASPD steroid
Sivir - ASPD steroid
Tristana - ASPD steroid
Twitch - ASPD steroid
Varus - ASPD steroid
Does Ashe have good damage compared to those champions?
Jinx - QWER all do damage. Q is AOE damage, R is huge AOE damage, has reset ability and a long range poke on W.
Graves - Huge ASPD steroid on Quickdraw. QWR are good AOE damage.
Ezreal - Good poke damage and sustained DPS with Q and W along with huge mobility with E. Large upfront burst wirh Trueshot Barrage.
MF - Pretty decent damage on Q and good short ASPD steroid with W. If you get a full channel off on R, you do a ton of damage.
Draven - Huge AD steroid on Q along with ASPD and MS steroid on W. E is decent self peel and R is a lot of damage globally.
Sivir - Huge AOE damage with Boomerang and RIcochet along with spellshield and ultimate for mobility purposes.
Tristana - Massive ASPD steroid on Q. E does a lot of damage if you're able to auto attack that target for a few times and W and R do damage if you engage in or can serve as peel with good upfront damage on Buster Shot.
Twitch - Very large steroid and ability to output tons of damage with his ultimate being 900+ range and AOE.
Varus - Huge scaling on his Q allows for great poke damage at huge range, and % damage off his W passive and E serves as a good slow along with the non-global form of Ashe's ultimate on his R.
So when we take into consideration all those champions I mentioned, Ashe really has 1 damaging skill (W) and I guess some R damage. Look at all these champions that have good damage skills along with ASPD steroids. I didn't even mention the fact that non-ASPD steroid champions such as Caitlyn (Headshot), Corki (True % Dmg), Kogmaw (% Magic Dmg) all have very good non-ASPD steroids for AD carries that may even be "the best non-ASPD steroid" in the game. So I gave you a part of your argument that may or may not even be right.
Ashe may have high damage dealt to champions in whatever data you may have pulled or looked at, but her kit is not the reason why. And don't even bother arguing it, because her numbers on W are not very high at all. Ashe basically is a pure auto attacker with no side skills at all besides a W and a magic damage scaling ultimate.
What else is there to say?
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Kaethis entire rant was based on the presumption that bladed armor does nothing. This is not true. It provides a big increase in clear speed for your early game clears, and the speed of your early game clears is so important that its not hard to imagine scenarios in solo queue where being 15 seconds faster to a gank decides the outcome of the entire game.
If this is the case, then you can't take unyielding instead of bladed armor, so you're either going 21 offense and not getting it at all, or you're going 21 defense and taking unyielding over something high up in the defense tree. The high defense tree masteries are all very good, you probably don't want to do that.
And if you can't take unyielding, either recovery or enchanted armor are better than block. Recovery is better early game, enchanted armor is better late game.
So, the entire argument is based on a flawed premise. And if you'd go test the clear times with and without bladed armor, you would see that.
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Can we just agree to disagree and move on?
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If you're going to say what my argument was at least get it right. Ashe has the highest no -steroid attack speed in the game (though I was actually wrong about this because I had forgotten that twitch and draven? has a higher base AS). I said additionally that the strength of her guaranteed crit made her burst Significant enough to make up for many of the steroids that other characters have. (Which it does)
There was a little more to it that that but at least get it right.
Edit: so we are explicitly clear here this is what I posted in response to "Ashe is a perfectly fine adc who does plenty of damage" and explicitly to the claim of "Ashe has the lowest damage of any adc"
Ashe has the highest level 18 non-steroid attack speed in the game. Her auto crit is a significant steroid, the only problem of which is that it does nothing 50% of the time. (I.E. if the enemy crits on their first attack), but otherwise is a significant damage boost that other AD's, even with their higher DOT will not likely overcome in short fights. (and if they ever fixed fucking crit it would be all the time)
Her base attack is .658 the highest of all AD's except twitch, which means that she scales well with attack speed items and ancillary boosts.
Her advantage is not at 2 items, but rather at 3+ items when the ability damage of other AD's starts to fall off, and the power of a 600 damage 3 second stun and auto-crit starts to shine.
Her downsides are no mobility, the lowest base speed in the game, and a shitty AA animation (compared to most AD's even after the tweaks), and a passive that does nothing 50% of the time. But not damage.
What you really want to know is this. Does Ashe win games? Ashe is the highest weekly win rate ADC in Platinum and the second highest in Diamond according to lolking(third monthly in plat and diamond, behind Jinx and Sivir)*. So yes. Ashe is a perfectly fine ADC who does plenty of damage
*tend to ignore challenger because there aren't enough games and because the dynamics of play are really strange up there
Show nested quote +(stuff about mobility)
Indeed, if only there were some high peel support who was also strong at the moment. Maybe this support could have a linear pass through knockup, a targeted slow, an AoE speed up passve, and he or she can put a shield on a target to give them HP and AD. Then her ultimate could be a massive knock away and heal over time and they can have an item that gives you attack speed when you shield someone so that you can utilizes Ashe's high base attack speed.
A champion like that being good would make Ashe really strong, its a shame one doesn't exist.
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Comparing steroids on ADC is pretty useless one way or another unless you are only interested in seeing DPS on a stationary target.
That being said, it takes about 5 seconds of research on champion.gg to know that Ashe is very strong right now.
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Okay, I misread your argument because of your wording, but you can't just say "Yeah she's doing okay in Diamond and wins games, so she must do good damage". I mean, MF also does well in Diamond+. Does that make her good as a champion and/or do good damage?
Lucian/Graves have <50%. Does that mean they're bad champions?
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I kinda wish there was an in-depth analysis of champion winrates on mains v. fillers. I do a lot better on Ashe than Lucian because I hate ADC, and a potato could play Ashe at a silver level.
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On May 11 2015 12:27 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
Okay, I misread your argument because of your wording, but you can't just say "Yeah she's doing okay in Diamond and wins games, so she must do good damage". I mean, MF also does well in Diamond+. Does that make her good as a champion and/or do good damage?
Lucian/Graves have <50%. Does that mean they're bad champions?
There was nothing circumspect about my wording. And actually yes it does mean a champion is good if their win rate is high! Winning is the point is it not?
And as for damage: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend&roleSort=ADC
Which means that Ashe is a perfectly fine adc and does plenty of damage and such a statement is neither ridiculous on its face and neither does explaining the reasons for that either.
Here is another reason Ashe does a lot of damage. Her w does more damage than graves q unless graves is point blank. And it has longer range and a lower Cooldown.
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People forget that competitive winrate/pickrate and general popularity are not indicators of value; they're indicators they work in that context.
Ashe has a slow that helps when she gets ahead, arrows that get her picks to get ahead, and W, probably one of the highest teamfight damage single spells in the game, especially.... when ahead. MF has a gamechanging ult in soloq and bullies lanes decently. If you just look at them without the context of 'no pro picks them, every other ADC does blankety blank better', you're ignoring hard statistics and simple intuition.
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So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results
http://imgur.com/KrCWfGN,miIVven,xKKMRXs
I was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives.
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do u guys hug ur moms with the same hands u type out angry huffing messages with
happy mothers day
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EPT
