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On September 06 2014 08:17 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I don't think it has to do with the items -- AP items have a lot of choices between mana regen (Athene's/Seraph's/Morello's), untargetability (Zhonya's), damage-tanky (Liandry's/Rod of Ages), utility-tanky (Rylai's/Abyssal), split-pushy (Banner of Command), AA modifying (Lich Bane/Nashor's), but so do AD items (IE vs Brutalizer vs Hydra).
The real issue is that while AP casters choose to tailor their build to fit their playstyle (Karthus can be played glass cannon OR rush RoA), ADC's pretty much solely focus on AA damage, so they rarely care about any AD item that isn't just the biggest possible number. Blue Build Ezreal is the main exception I can think of. By contrast, AD casters can modify their build depending on whether they care about burst (Hydra), CDR (Brutalizer), mana (Essence Reaver), etc.
Sure but its hard to build a pure AD caster that isn't just plain overpowered when using standard ADC items. The quintessential example as release Graves.
If there is an answer its going to be difficult to implement and require segregating the AD casters from the ranged auto attack carry champions at a level that is functional in their build.
I mean look at IE at the moment. We have this weird area where IE is pretty much strictly better than BT early and late. But when BT had enough AD that it was comparable it was so strong early game that IE was almost a troll purchase. So either AD casters have to be designed in a way that they don't get anything from I.E. (good luck with that) or IE needs to be removed and Ranged Auto champions need to be compensated in base stats/passives/whatever. And all of this needs to be done in a way that maintains an early/lategame timing advantage for the various types of champions without letting one type get overly stong due to the new utility choices that everyone has and without having both types become useless compared to another carry type(or to bruisers who like mixed tank and damage).
The other solution (which is possible) is to just give every ranged auto champion critical strike or attack speed based scaling so they want to buy those items instead. Then you can make those items raw strength weaker and start having AD casters but the AD caster items which have utility on them instead. Then you can also add utility to the critical/attack speed items...
But either one of those solutions requires reworking every single AD caster or ranged auto based champion, and all of the items, and its not guaranteed to work, and is an ugly inelegant solution.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
So LPL regionals are tomorrow (In 5 hours actually) and I've got things going on tomorrow so if anyone wants to make a thread for it that'd be great or just use the current LPL Summer thread like we did for OGN.
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Anyone wanna duo with me? Nao?
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On September 06 2014 07:20 AetherZucchini wrote:
For those who might have missed it (Meddler's article):
Some roles have a range of interesting itemization choices throughout the game. AP casters, for example get to make choices like Tear of the Goddess or Fiendish Codex early, and Zhonya’s or Deathcap later on. Other roles, however, have fewer interesting options available to them. Marksmen have generally followed very similar build paths to each other with low variance. As a result, we're trying to find ways to offer more distinct and appealing options, like the changes to Bloodthirster to better position it as a high end defensive AD item. In comparison, the old Bloodthirster - due to it having the highest AD in the game along with lifesteal - basically said, "Build this on every marksman that auto attacks or uses spells" (that is, all of them).
Bringing the AP mid as a role having "deep meaningful choices" when Athene rush into ZH/VS/DC happens 95% of games at the very least would be hilarious enough. But wait, he can say something even smarter ! Apparently BT was mandatory on marksmen too (as opposed to, say, IE or LW ?). I wonder what were all those BotRK buyers thinking. I mean, BT was rarely first buy anyway after the BotRK introduction, except for that short time period with the BT/SS fast tower push. Marksmen actually have more choice in their early itemisation than AP mid, even if the item pool remains fairly small.
I get that they are trying to somehow align their marketing and game design rhetorics, but come on.
I call bullshit. AP has by far the best itemization in the game.
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theres nothing in game that even comes close to zhonya, imagine ad version of it l0l
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I feel Ashe has a lot of good itemization choices. She still needs Infinity Edge first, but I find the following three items are all very good on her as a second item depending on the situation:
1. Phantom Dancer/Statik Shiv (I consider these two to be similar enough to be one item
2. Warmog
3. Sword of the Divine
I feel the reason is that Ashe's Q/R are sufficiently broken that she does not need to prioritize on damage. It's quite different from other ADCs who are more or less forced to break certain damage threshold in order to be effective.
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Is Morg mid a thing anymore or is she only Support now?
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On September 06 2014 10:20 Requizen wrote:
Is Morg mid a thing anymore or is she only Support now?
It's one of those things where she can work mid, but it's wasted potential compared to her power as a support.
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Morg mid is absolutely terrible. She practically wins no match ups and the only thing she can do is to pray and hope her lane opponent is bad.
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On September 06 2014 10:25 Sufficiency wrote:
Morg mid is absolutely terrible. She practically wins no match ups and the only thing she can do is to pray and hope her lane opponent is bad.
morg has enough teamfight power and utility that she doesn't need to "win" mid many times.
Lets also be honest, in pro play there are very few 1v1 mid kills or someone getting straight pooped on and being unable to lane. Its a lot of roaming, coordinated ganks, and team movement, which morg can do pretty well. I'm not saying she's a good mid pick but she can be safe and supports ganks well and contributes a lot in teamfighting.
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On September 06 2014 08:34 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 08:17 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I don't think it has to do with the items -- AP items have a lot of choices between mana regen (Athene's/Seraph's/Morello's), untargetability (Zhonya's), damage-tanky (Liandry's/Rod of Ages), utility-tanky (Rylai's/Abyssal), split-pushy (Banner of Command), AA modifying (Lich Bane/Nashor's), but so do AD items (IE vs Brutalizer vs Hydra).
The real issue is that while AP casters choose to tailor their build to fit their playstyle (Karthus can be played glass cannon OR rush RoA), ADC's pretty much solely focus on AA damage, so they rarely care about any AD item that isn't just the biggest possible number. Blue Build Ezreal is the main exception I can think of. By contrast, AD casters can modify their build depending on whether they care about burst (Hydra), CDR (Brutalizer), mana (Essence Reaver), etc. I mean look at IE at the moment. We have this weird area where IE is pretty much strictly better than BT early and late. But when BT had enough AD that it was comparable it was so strong early game that IE was almost a troll purchase. So either AD casters have to be designed in a way that they don't get anything from I.E. (good luck with that) or IE needs to be removed and Ranged Auto champions need to be compensated in base stats/passives/whatever. And all of this needs to be done in a way that maintains an early/lategame timing advantage for the various types of champions without letting one type get overly stong due to the new utility choices that everyone has and without having both types become useless compared to another carry type(or to bruisers who like mixed tank and damage).
The interesting thing/problem seems to me to be that somehow that "lategame" AD Carries (traditionally Kog/Trist, and in different ways Vayne/Twitch), are actually not viable when their traditional weaknesses are real. This is even with the S4 changes that pushed the game towards lategame in just a general sense. I.E. you still couldn't pick Trist until they eliminated threats that could set her 30, 40, 50 CS behind + fixed her mana issues.
Also the old BT first was strictly better, because a good BT first team would probably be able to exploit it so that their AD had BT/PD/LW/IE before the other teams AD had IE/PD/LW.
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On September 06 2014 10:31 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 10:25 Sufficiency wrote:
Morg mid is absolutely terrible. She practically wins no match ups and the only thing she can do is to pray and hope her lane opponent is bad. morg has enough teamfight power and utility that she doesn't need to "win" mid many times. Lets also be honest, in pro play there are very few 1v1 mid kills or someone getting straight pooped on and being unable to lane. Its a lot of roaming, coordinated ganks, and team movement, which morg can do pretty well. I'm not saying she's a good mid pick but she can be safe and supports ganks well and contributes a lot in teamfighting.
Her teamfight is actually not that great, at least not damage-wise. She is better as a support because she gets the same amount of CC without the amount of farm requirement.
She wasn't too strong prior to season 4 due to global gold too little for her to get a Zhonya.
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28093 Posts
So I finally got some more time to get to lvl 30, and now I want to start ranked. My only question is, what tier 3 runes do I need? Do I only need tier 3 or do I need some tier 2 as well?
I mostly play mid and ADC, so if someone can give me some tips on 1-2 rune pages that might be helpful for me I would be so happy. I have tons of IP btw so I should be ok when getting runes. Played with IP boosters quite a few times on my quest to lvl 30 
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On September 06 2014 11:08 TheEmulator wrote:So I finally got some more time to get to lvl 30, and now I want to start ranked. My only question is, what tier 3 runes do I need? Do I only need tier 3 or do I need some tier 2 as well? I mostly play mid and ADC, so if someone can give me some tips on 1-2 rune pages that might be helpful for me I would be so happy. I have tons of IP btw so I should be ok when getting runes. Played with IP boosters quite a few times on my quest to lvl 30
We should play sometime
I use Probuilds.net for champions I use as I think the runes are pretty much the same for any champion playing the ADC/Mid role (right?)
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Morg used to be best at pushing waves
Max puddle and easy farm mode
No worries about ganks with shield
Just push all day and farm farm farm
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On September 06 2014 11:05 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 10:31 sob3k wrote:On September 06 2014 10:25 Sufficiency wrote:
Morg mid is absolutely terrible. She practically wins no match ups and the only thing she can do is to pray and hope her lane opponent is bad. morg has enough teamfight power and utility that she doesn't need to "win" mid many times. Lets also be honest, in pro play there are very few 1v1 mid kills or someone getting straight pooped on and being unable to lane. Its a lot of roaming, coordinated ganks, and team movement, which morg can do pretty well. I'm not saying she's a good mid pick but she can be safe and supports ganks well and contributes a lot in teamfighting. Her teamfight is actually not that great, at least not damage-wise. She is better as a support because she gets the same amount of CC without the amount of farm requirement. She wasn't too strong prior to season 4 due to global gold too little for her to get a Zhonya.
Her teamfight is still great with a whole shit tonne of damage(.9 AP on Q! 750+ 1.5 AP on R!, 500+1.6 on W if you can get someone to stand in it). She just can't afford to level her primary team fight ability up because if you're mid lane you have to wave clear which means she needs points in W.
But at the same time her wave clear sucks anyway because W doesn't hard clear waves. Back in Season 2 when no almost no mids had strong wave clear and she could just AFK farm mid then Wraiths then mid then wraiths then maybe go gank a lane she was super strong. But now she is definitely better as a support. She can level her engage ability and her shield and still build a decent amount of damage.
She could be OK in mid, but knowing when you've got enough points in W so you can start leveling Q for fights takes a lot of getting used to and still leaves you with a weird hard to use power spike
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Flat armour for seals, MR/level of flat MR (or a mix) for glyphs. Marks you can MPen or Hybrid Pen (a lot more expensive, not always better) for the AP champs, or AD marks for others. Quints depend more but AP quints for mages and AD marks (AS if you play marksmen, AD are more for physical casters which you find more mid, and junglers).
All tier 3 since tier 2 runes would be less stats for slightly less IP.
On September 06 2014 11:13 JSH wrote:
Morg used to be best at pushing waves
Max puddle and easy farm mode
No worries about ganks with shield
Just push all day and farm farm farm
She was never "the best". Malzahar, Mordekaiser (possibly Heimerdinger), Lux, TF and Galio with some AP etc. did better than her.
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On September 06 2014 11:08 TheEmulator wrote:So I finally got some more time to get to lvl 30, and now I want to start ranked. My only question is, what tier 3 runes do I need? Do I only need tier 3 or do I need some tier 2 as well? I mostly play mid and ADC, so if someone can give me some tips on 1-2 rune pages that might be helpful for me I would be so happy. I have tons of IP btw so I should be ok when getting runes. Played with IP boosters quite a few times on my quest to lvl 30
holy shit u actually got 30 dawg lets own some summoners
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On September 06 2014 11:08 TheEmulator wrote:So I finally got some more time to get to lvl 30, and now I want to start ranked. My only question is, what tier 3 runes do I need? Do I only need tier 3 or do I need some tier 2 as well? I mostly play mid and ADC, so if someone can give me some tips on 1-2 rune pages that might be helpful for me I would be so happy. I have tons of IP btw so I should be ok when getting runes. Played with IP boosters quite a few times on my quest to lvl 30
For adc Flat AD Reds, Flat Armor Yellows, Flat MR Blues, and 2 LS and ! AD Quints. This my normal adc page but I only Silver 1 so take it with a grain of salt.
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On September 06 2014 12:00 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2014 11:08 TheEmulator wrote:So I finally got some more time to get to lvl 30, and now I want to start ranked. My only question is, what tier 3 runes do I need? Do I only need tier 3 or do I need some tier 2 as well? I mostly play mid and ADC, so if someone can give me some tips on 1-2 rune pages that might be helpful for me I would be so happy. I have tons of IP btw so I should be ok when getting runes. Played with IP boosters quite a few times on my quest to lvl 30 For adc Flat AD Reds, Flat Armor Yellows, Flat MR Blues, and 2 LS and ! AD Quints. This my normal adc page but I only Silver 1 so take it with a grain of salt.
Pros have been using AD marks, Armor seals, 0-9 AS and/or MR glyphs, and AS quints.
I'm not sure why they are using AS glyphs as the bonus is so small it isn't even funny. I don't see the practicality of it.
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EPT
