EPTAnd you don't get any mana regen on Essence Reaver until you complete the item.
If it built out of Pickaxe + Vamp + Forbidden Idol with the same end cost and stats I think it'd be a lot better.
[Patch 4.15] Master Tier General Discussion - Page 37
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And you don't get any mana regen on Essence Reaver until you complete the item. If it built out of Pickaxe + Vamp + Forbidden Idol with the same end cost and stats I think it'd be a lot better. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On September 02 2014 00:07 Ketara wrote: My big problem with Essence Reaver is the champions who want it want mana regen more early in the game, and less later in the game. And you don't get any mana regen on Essence Reaver until you complete the item. If it built out of Pickaxe + Vamp + Forbidden Idol with the same end cost and stats I think it'd be a lot better. Actually I feel it should be built from Brutalizer and have arpen on it too. Itll actually be a really interesting choice IE has crit+crit damage, BT has shield+20% lifesteal, and ER would have cdr arpen and mixed sustain. The champs who would buy ER benifits a lot from an early Brut - Lucian, Jayce, Khazix, Sivir, etc | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35173 Posts
On September 02 2014 00:28 nafta wrote: If it had arpen it would make pretty much every ad caster op.Unless they make the arpen ranged only or something like that. A lot of AD casters are manaless. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
So?Lets say they remove the ls and give arpen so this item gives 80 ad/10%cdr/arpen for 3200 do you think zed wouldnt buy it? Even more of them use mana. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35173 Posts
On September 02 2014 00:53 nafta wrote: So?Lets say they remove the ls and give arpen so this item gives 80 ad/10%cdr/arpen for 3200 do you think zed wouldnt buy it? Even more of them use mana. Sorry, still drinking my coffee, was this hypothetical version with mana regen or not? Anyway, no, I don't think he would even without mana regen. Zed's seem to be valuing Ghostblade active and even if the trend decided to fall back to BC, Zed's would probably favor the stacking armor reduction over 30AD and a better build path. If you're going to say something like "it would make pretty much every ad caster op," it should mean more than "over half." | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On September 02 2014 01:01 Slusher wrote: I don't understand why they don't just make it an early game item akin to bruta, since muramana already dunks it late game. The item actually is just confusing from a design prospective in this way, what was the goal? If the thought was that by allowing it to occupy the lifesteal slot for a late game ad, then removing the lifesteal as suggested above just makes it even more confusing, because muramana, the late game ad/mp5 item already exists. Yeah basically it gives stats that you want immediately on caster ADs (mana regen + CDR), but doesn't give them to you till you invest 3200 gold into the item. If you got the regen+CDR right away and then got AD on the combine, it would fill an appropriate item space. As is it looks good on paper but when you go into a game you end up just confused as to when you're going to build it. When you compare it to the AP regen+CDR items (Athene/Morello), those get regen+CDR right away, and get AP when you combine them. And those items are core on everybody. I think it's probably strong on a number of champs if you get kills early and can afford to grab a BF sword first back, but other than that it's just awkward. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35173 Posts
On September 02 2014 01:10 Ketara wrote: Yeah basically it gives stats that you want immediately on caster ADs (mana regen + CDR), but doesn't give them to you till you invest 3200 gold into the item. If you got the regen+CDR right away and then got AD on the combine, it would fill an appropriate item space. As is it looks good on paper but when you go into a game you end up just confused as to when you're going to build it. When you compare it to the AP regen+CDR items (Athene/Morello), those get regen+CDR right away, and get AP when you combine them. And those items are core on everybody. I think it's probably strong on a number of champs if you get kills early and can afford to grab a BF sword first back, but other than that it's just awkward. I think everybody agrees it has a bad case of the Atma's. I'm really interested in the Noctune ult change on the PBE. That CD change is huge. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On September 02 2014 01:10 Ketara wrote: I think it's probably strong on a number of champs if you get kills early and can afford to grab a BF sword first back, but other than that it's just awkward. using Jayce as an example, the fact of the matter is manamune stacks SO much faster than raw tear if you back with 1550 gold and a tear, an upgrade(1500) seems equally tempting to a BF sword. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 02 2014 01:10 Ketara wrote: Yeah basically it gives stats that you want immediately on caster ADs (mana regen + CDR), but doesn't give them to you till you invest 3200 gold into the item. If you got the regen+CDR right away and then got AD on the combine, it would fill an appropriate item space. As is it looks good on paper but when you go into a game you end up just confused as to when you're going to build it. When you compare it to the AP regen+CDR items (Athene/Morello), those get regen+CDR right away, and get AP when you combine them. And those items are core on everybody. I think it's probably strong on a number of champs if you get kills early and can afford to grab a BF sword first back, but other than that it's just awkward. Think you pretty much nailed it. I don't get what Riot were thinking when they designed this item. What's the intended purpose of it? | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On September 02 2014 01:48 Numy wrote: Think you pretty much nailed it. I don't get what Riot were thinking when they designed this item. What's the intended purpose of it? They stated they wanted to expand ADC items, instead of seeing BT every game. They succeeded to some extent but they didnt do too good of a job on the new item itself. Your argument regarding BF sword being expensive to save up needs a bit more clarifying, since IE BT are both built from BF sword and are built early too...You shoulve stated that a mid game oriented item shouldnt require the same build path as a late game core. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On September 02 2014 02:09 padfoota wrote: They stated they wanted to expand ADC items, instead of seeing BT every game. They succeeded to some extent but they didnt do too good of a job on the new item itself I actually disagree, by nerfing BT at the same time as buffing IE and on hit BotrK they just changed what the items you see every game are. Wheras they could have buffed or nerfed one without the other and maybe gotten parity, though it's pretty unlikely that the community won't figure out what the absolute min/max is eventually, in league it might be possible if both items are good for different champions to value each, at least you would hope. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
They both have the same buildup, both have the same AD. BT has 20% lifesteal, ER has 10% lifesteal 10% CDR. So, on some champions where I was going to build BT first, I might consider now building Essence Reaver first. Sivir, Graves, Varus etc. But, who builds BT first now? | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
Graves wants IE. he can go yomumus for the cdr but IE is a must considering you have an insane AS steroid. Neither varus or sivir really cares for the crit during mid game since they can just spam spells from long range, but graves needs to get up close and personal before he can do damage, so you might as well make it as painful as possible. I wish BT's shield was an active/passive with CD. Itll make BT a lot more appealing as a defensive item, and any concerns regarding balance can easily be addressed by changing the length of cooldown. So basically itll become BT for defensive option, ER for offensive cast and IE as offensive AA, instead of BT having a sketchy function for a high price. Yeah I realize itll kinda make barrier a shit summoner spell if it really changed as an active/passive | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
The only problem is they created a lategame item for a early/midgame purpose. Said lategame item also sucks dick in comparison to all the other options. It doesn't have the damage (IE) or survivability boost (BT, Mercurial) of the other BF Sword items plus it's also almost strictly worse than the other lategame mana item (Muramana). Muramana will give slightly (10~15) less AD depending on who you buy it on/if you have Sheen, so AD scaling skills will lose a tiny bit of damage, but that gets more than compensated for by the toggle. Essence Reaver should've been a >1k gold item with the option to upgrade into something unique. Not a Bloodthirsty wannabe with its buildup and cost. On September 02 2014 02:24 Ketara wrote: If you compare it to BT, it does serve a good niche in direct comparison with BT. They both have the same buildup, both have the same AD. BT has 20% lifesteal, ER has 10% lifesteal 10% CDR. So, on some champions where I was going to build BT first, I might consider now building Essence Reaver first. Sivir, Graves, Varus etc. But, who builds BT first now? Yea, it doesn't work like that. Right after item changes, BT was a utterly trash item even with 15% lifesteal. It wasn't until they buffed the shield to last almost 30 seconds when it became good again. You only buy BT because the ~400 hp shield is very strong. Plus, you get double the amount of lifesteal from BT than you do from ER. The difference between 20% and 10% is huge. I mean, ffs BT immediately post-patch was only 15% and that was pretty shit. ER does not serve any niche and it is not even close to being as good as BT. Saying you might consider building it over BT is idiotic. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 02 2014 02:57 Ryuu314 wrote: ER is bad. The original intent was to essentially create an AD analogue of Chalice->Grail since people have been asking for that since like...season 1/2. And the only reason that this niche might be necessary is because Riot is allergic to having mana regen available to them in other ways like when casual Chalice was bought for laning when it didn't have an upgrade. | ||
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