EPT[Patch 4.10] Nidalee/Skarner Rework General Discussion - P…
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
Now the part when it becomes retarded is when you're saying that buying AD on support is not a waste, and that it is actually good. I you buy AD, it means you are not buying other stuff. Any resist is better than AD, crit chance and lifesteal might not be better I'll give you that, and then AS is better cause you can kill wards marginally faster. Even regens are better and that says a lot. Do not mix various things, itemizing AD on support is BAD, period. The only moment you want that is if you have to get it to build an item that will benefit 4 people of your team more than any other item. (When Zekes is good). And even then, you delay it the most you can cause it is useless and you'd rather have the kindlegem. Finally, support itemization these days revolve around a very fast sightstone and a lvl2 gold generation item. Now, it's true that not everyone gets the gold generating things, but in 90% of games they are there. This standard build on support (aka, the non retarded support way) amounts for quite a bit of gold, and by the time you are done with those, a longsword worth of attack is useless. | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
The shield on BT is probably either totally useless if you cant get the shield up before a tf or totally overpowered if you manage to get the full 450 health with the wave and the fight starts in the next 15 seconds... holy. But since you cant stack the 30 AD after the buy, I dont think anyone will go BT first anymore. Dorans blade gives you 3% LS anyway with defeats the purpose of the higher LS. Randuins is dead (no ms slow anymore, nice one) And no direct nerfs to jax, braum, kayle. sigh | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On June 19 2014 16:39 iremnant3847 wrote: I just have a few questions that I can't answer on my own: BT and BotRK, both of which are item options for an AD carry, were changed in this patch. Prior to 4.10, BT was a primary item bought by every AD carry because it was a cost-efficient and strong item at maximum stacks. With the buff to BotRK and complete change to BT, I'm not sure what lifesteal option I'm supposed to go with anymore. Do you think AD casters such as Lucian should now buy IE or BotRK first now? BT gives as much AD as IE now, and BotRK has the potential to dish out more damage than BT in mid to late game due to its passive. Also, how is Essence Reaver as an item for AD casters? Is it a must-get? If not, in what situations and against what enemies should you consider purchasing the item? When should you purchase it (first item, second item, etc) ? I haven't played on the new patch yet, but I would say TF -> Botrk is probably the best build for Lucian right now. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 19 2014 15:56 PrinceXizor wrote: so the item is bad because it could be better. got it. even though there isn't a single item for <400 gold that provides a power spike like long sword except boots. if you can't justify spending <400 gold on an item that provides an immediate benefit to you and your team then i don't know what you want from items. apparently you want a 800 cost zhonyas. 1) 5 pots > long sword 2) the upgrade cost of Zhonya is 500 so there already exists a Zhonya for under 800. You might say "no final item cost" and yea the final item cost of Zhonya is only 710 gold more than zekes. And if you notice in LCS play that many supports who would get Zhonya often do not because of the 1600 gold dead zone, instead opting for things like spooky ghosts. Look. Even if you want the item. The build up cost for it is so severe that it makes it hard to justify. You either have to sacrifice a lot of immediate power for an item which despite being good is not so good as to be above similarly priced items. For all the value of zekes locket prevents more damage than zekes enables and has an easy buy in. Just look at its comparables: Locket: 2800 gold, 50 gold upgrade cost, largest single component cost 780 (assuming you don't have space for the rejuv). Smallest component cost 400 (again assuming pots>rejuv) Spooky Ghosts: 2400 gold... Holy fuck spooky ghosts active is redonk. Morellonomicon: 2200 gold, largest component cost is 715 (assuming you don't by Farie charms). 80 AP, 20%, CDR, gregious wounds Banner of command: free split pushing and free gold for 2400, still has 20% cdr and 80 AP. Frozen Heart: 2600 gold, 100 armor, 20% cdr, enemy's auto 15% slower! Shit, ohmwrecker isn't that bad at 2000 gold and probably better for sieges since you can force the enemy to contest their turret with no fear. Largest component cost is 860. All of these offer power not significantly weaker(or stronger!) than zekes with cheaper component costs and easier upgrade paths for everyone but like support Ashe. On June 19 2014 15:42 Capped wrote: Could you imagine the fuck fest 5 crucibles would be. Crucible was almost the perfect support item. No multiplicative power, gold efficient but not slot efficient, no wasted stats. They just increased the price and added cdr making it harder for supports to buy it and making it more likely that someone with more gold income would pick it up as a defensive/mana item. | ||
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iremnant3847
Taiwan269 Posts
On June 19 2014 17:38 Inflicted wrote: I haven't played on the new patch yet, but I would say TF -> Botrk is probably the best build for Lucian right now. When should you EVER get BT as an item for an ADC? The item just seems so..weak now. It might just be me. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 19 2014 17:57 iremnant3847 wrote: When should you EVER get BT as an item for an ADC? The item just seems so..weak now. It might just be me. Late game, unless the enemy has a hard engage that they must use first and the enemy doesn't have poke to pop a BV then scimitar and BT as your 5th and 6th items makes a lot of sense. Otherwise you have IE, Shiv/PD, and LW for your big three and then what? Ghostblade and a defensive? Sure not too bad but GB plus BV is 400 HP, 25 ad, 15%, crit, the active AS, and 40 MR. BT plus Scimitar is 400 hp, 160 AD, Cleanse and 40 MR. Sure it cost more but that is kind of the point. You're worried about slot efficiency late game and GB and BV don't cut it compared to items that cost 1000 gold more. | ||
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Owned Noob
United States731 Posts
On June 19 2014 17:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: anyone had any luck with jungle nidalee? if you can reset your w's, shes surprisingly fast. also, she can gank from anywhere, so theres that. | ||
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iremnant3847
Taiwan269 Posts
On June 19 2014 18:05 Goumindong wrote: Late game, unless the enemy has a hard engage that they must use first and the enemy doesn't have poke to pop a BV then scimitar and BT as your 5th and 6th items makes a lot of sense. Otherwise you have IE, Shiv/PD, and LW for your big three and then what? Ghostblade and a defensive? Sure not too bad but GB plus BV is 400 HP, 25 ad, 15%, crit, the active AS, and 40 MR. BT plus Scimitar is 400 hp, 160 AD, Cleanse and 40 MR. Sure it cost more but that is kind of the point. You're worried about slot efficiency late game and GB and BV don't cut it compared to items that cost 1000 gold more. Okay, but how will I get my lifesteal if I have IE, PD/Shiv, LW, and Boots? Does this mean I need to play more cautiously, or run LW quints + double Dorans to compensate for the lack of a BotRK / BT? | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 19 2014 17:51 Goumindong wrote: 1) 5 pots > long sword 2) the upgrade cost of Zhonya is 500 so there already exists a Zhonya for under 800. You might say "no final item cost" and yea the final item cost of Zhonya is only 710 gold more than zekes. And if you notice in LCS play that many supports who would get Zhonya often do not because of the 1600 gold dead zone, instead opting for things like spooky ghosts. Look. Even if you want the item. The build up cost for it is so severe that it makes it hard to justify. You either have to sacrifice a lot of immediate power for an item which despite being good is not so good as to be above similarly priced items. For all the value of zekes locket prevents more damage than zekes enables and has an easy buy in. Just look at its comparables: Locket: 2800 gold, 50 gold upgrade cost, largest single component cost 780 (assuming you don't have space for the rejuv). Smallest component cost 400 (again assuming pots>rejuv) Spooky Ghosts: 2400 gold... Holy fuck spooky ghosts active is redonk. Morellonomicon: 2200 gold, largest component cost is 715 (assuming you don't by Farie charms). 80 AP, 20%, CDR, gregious wounds Banner of command: free split pushing and free gold for 2400, still has 20% cdr and 80 AP. Frozen Heart: 2600 gold, 100 armor, 20% cdr, enemy's auto 15% slower! Shit, ohmwrecker isn't that bad at 2000 gold and probably better for sieges since you can force the enemy to contest their turret with no fear. Largest component cost is 860. All of these offer power not significantly weaker(or stronger!) than zekes with cheaper component costs and easier upgrade paths for everyone but like support Ashe. Crucible was almost the perfect support item. No multiplicative power, gold efficient but not slot efficient, no wasted stats. They just increased the price and added cdr making it harder for supports to buy it and making it more likely that someone with more gold income would pick it up as a defensive/mana item. Paying 800gish for each component is not that bad imo. If your team will benefit from the lifesteal after Sightstone its not awful by any means | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Do I value right-clicks enough as Lulu to buy Zerkers over Ionian boots? Wtf no. + Show Spoiler [Zeke's trials] + I tried aura items on Wukong in s2-3 when I was spamming him top lane. I loved Aegis because it gave me all the resistances I wanted when taking his passive into account, for cheaps, letting me then stack HP and offensive stats, even before Bulwark was introduced. I really liked Locket too because Wukong prefers HP to resistances, and at the time it gave armour (that's right people, Locket went from HP+armour cheap item to HP+MR expensive high-end item) so it had an easy build-up, was cheap enough to have your first big item (BT or a combo like bruta+hexdrinker) and Locket by midgame to make you an even stronger teamfighter, and Wukong doesn't dislike CDR since he relies a lot on his burst combo for his damage. I was very disappointed in Zeke's because it's pretty darn weak for its holder (the 20% CDR represents a big part of the cost, and offensively it only provides +20 AD, making my damage laughable and it inappropriate as my offensive item, and simulaneously not providing enough survivability that I was comfortable building it after offensive items). I wanted it to work, I'm a bitch for CDR in general (altough less so than at the time), but it always felt like a huge waste of farm because so much of the value is into the aura, the build-up is awkward (mix of stats but not enough of either to be relevant), and even when gouping up for teamfights you sacrifice so much personal power for it that I'd rather build selfish items at first to be "self-sufficient" before moving on to utility. Have to admit that Kindlegem was king of items at the time so obviously Zeke's build-up had more competition. Now that Locket's worse momentum-wise, SV's been made irrelevant save for Mundo, Aatrox and Zac (and maybe Hecarim), and it's been removed as Shurelya's became Talisman, the casual kindlegem is harder to justify if not for Zeke's. I remember Yango harping a lot about how LoL items tend to be super-biased toward a lot of a particular stat rather than a mix of them, making it harder to mix and match items according to needs (especially early on, for your first 3 items), maybe Zeke's would be better if that wasn't the case but as is its stat spread is simply too weak compared to what else you can build. And if you buy it for the aura let's get honest, it's even worse despite what PX claims. On June 19 2014 12:24 PrinceXizor wrote: its pretty big misconception that AD is useless for supports. you can go long sword+ kindlegem and then up it to zekes with little to no downside. if you are supporting without taking advantage of your auto attack you are a bad support. not to mention that 20% cdr is way better than 10%. the argument this thread had against mikaels was not its cost, but that what it does was useless for a support and that the active was shit and if your team isn't autoing during team fights then they are bad as well. even the most burst based of mages use auto attacks in fights if they are any good. I'm taking a bait hard, but show it to me. And show me it was indeed "the thread" and not "PX making a claim because one person out of 15+ disagreed with him". Worst case you won't be posting egregious stuff here while you're searching. On June 19 2014 14:17 wei2coolman wrote: His autoattacks are obviously spell modified, but that still doesn't make Zeke's a worthy buy in most situations. semi-tangential point about Thresh. His kit offers so much utility (which I don't really have a problem with), but what I don't get is why he needs free damage on ability that already has a godly active, and then gives it godly passive damage too? like what the living fuck? It was on Death Sentence initially. Obvious Q max. then, and the amount of hooks attempted in lane and midgame compared to now was kinda oppressive (esp. since he has lower costs and better mana pool than Blitz, whose costs were even higher at the time). | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 19 2014 18:12 iremnant3847 wrote: Okay, but how will I get my lifesteal if I have IE, PD/Shiv, LW, and Boots? Does this mean I need to play more cautiously, or run LW quints + double Dorans to compensate for the lack of a BotRK / BT? Double Dorans should be enough since you use life steal less as a fight sustain and more of a post fight sustain also pots. sell a Dorans for the BT components when the time comes then get QSS into scimitar. In terms of gold efficiency? Super bad. In terms of Slot efficiency? Hard to beat 160 Ad, 15% lifesteal, 400 HP potential, 45 MR and a cleanse since every other reasonable combination is short necessary defenses or simple short 1500 gold worth of buy price. Maybe things won't shake out like that but I think it's how it will work. This option hasn't been open in the past because there hasn't been a reasonably efficient HP and AD item. (Mallet plus scimitar would have been 85 AD and 700 HP before the patch with no lifesteal. Then you sell your boots for Zephyr and you're a season 2 ADC again. | ||
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iremnant3847
Taiwan269 Posts
On June 19 2014 18:43 Goumindong wrote: The maximum component cost for zekes is 1700 gold. That is bad. You may say that vamp only costs 800 but vamp is also worth basically zero which is the same damned thing in my book because what you care about with regards to upgrade costs is your power level as you're setting up for objectives and fights. Vamp is a big hole for most all supports it does basically nothing. It almost but not quite might as well not be there. Potions are more effective at that point. Double Dorans should be enough since you use life steal less as a fight sustain and more of a post fight sustain also pots. sell a Dorans for the BT components when the time comes then get QSS into scimitar. In terms of gold efficiency? Super bad. In terms of Slot efficiency? Hard to beat 160 Ad, 15% lifesteal, 400 HP potential, 45 MR and a cleanse since every other reasonable combination is short necessary defenses or simple short 1500 gold worth of buy price. Maybe things won't shake out like that but I think it's how it will work. This option hasn't been open in the past because there hasn't been a reasonably efficient HP and AD item. (Mallet plus scimitar would have been 85 AD and 700 HP before the patch with no lifesteal. Then you sell your boots for Zephyr and you're a season 2 ADC again. Understood. Thanks for your help! | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
On June 19 2014 19:12 Celial wrote: Now that Elise is pretty much a support jungler (Golem -> CDR Boots -> Sightstone -> Locket build), is it even worth learning her anymore if I never played her before? Once support junglers come back, there are sooooo many other options that I already can play a little... She's a lot of fun, I'd definitely say she's worth learning. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Just noticed there's a challenger guy in NA running smite/TP jungle AD TF. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On June 19 2014 19:12 Celial wrote: Now that Elise is pretty much a support jungler (Golem -> CDR Boots -> Sightstone -> Locket build), is it even worth learning her anymore if I never played her before? Once support junglers come back, there are sooooo many other options that I already can play a little... Well, she is one of the best junglers in the game... | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On June 19 2014 19:45 Alaric wrote: Apparently Ardent Censer is bugged and gives MS? 8% global MS pretty stronk uh. I guess it's a must buy till it gets fixed, if only to counteract the enemy team's. Just noticed there's a challenger guy in NA running smite/TP jungle AD TF. Oh wow. Janna's old passive and then some. Brb collecting freelo on Lux. I couldn't lux. Someone was convinced braum was op and went support first D: And he didn't want censor. You can't force the item. Sej is too squishy with it. But at the same time it's sooper powerful. Like as soon as you get it you can take a look at the movement speed of all the allied champions on the map and it's like you gave them a noticeable buff. Permanent captains boots. | ||
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