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On June 19 2014 13:51 Sufficiency wrote:
Support autos are almost 100% useless after the laning phase.
Wut...
Janna for example at level 10 does 80 damage per auto attack. With Armor mitigation, on average that is like 50 damage. No huge, but in a fight with your ADC in 4 seconds that is 200 damage.
That is often the difference between winning a fight with an AD against a diver + subsequently winning a huge teamfight or losing that fight with the AD against a diver + subsequently losing a huge teamfight in a close game.
Just because the damage isn't huge doesn't mean they are useless. They can make a large impact.
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I think you should build starks if your team has a lot of autoattackers because even if the lifesteal doesn't affect your allies when they're doing their own thing, in teamfights you'll likely affect yourself and an ally and make the item worthwhile and if you affect yourself and 3 allies it's great.
I'd only get it on champs that are built to do auto damage like xin, yasuo, and a ranged ADC though. Not a support.
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Lulu and Thresh's autoattack can change a teamfight. Braum can tag everyone with his. Karma's can give her CDR. Even without all these passives, all ranged support can make good use of their autoattacks.
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zeke's more niche situation, but for most comps you'd just rather get the locket and mikaels first.
Maybe if you have some weird midgame auto attack based team comp, that includes something like adc/yasuo/irelia.
or something.
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Look. Just because support autos matter in the mid game doesn't mean you should buy a freaking vamp scepter or that a freaking vamp scepter is a decent power upgrade over almost any other equivalent cost item. The life steal is almost worthless. The AD is only slightly more than worthless.
The buy in to zekes is expensive. For a support it has 1700 gold worth of dead space. Ok the vamp scepter isn't totally dead space but it's pretty close. 10 AD on the support compared to 30 AP and 10% CDR (codex) or finishing your gold item (for some pretty great actives) or simply buying more HP so that instead of doing 50 more pre armor auto attack damage over the course of a fight you tank 150 pre armor auto damage while your ad is still getting peel.
The problem as people have been trying to tell you is not the completed item power (especially considering everyone will AA in a fight making the damage boost really strong!). The problem is that it's 1700 gold of nothing before you get there!
I mean ADs have problems with buying BF sword because it's a big dead space in their power curve where they need to farm (ditto for NLR items) but you're saying that supports who don't have AD scaling are not going to have an issue with a 1700 gold vacuum?
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Surely Thresh is the exception to the "support autos are useless" argument?
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On June 19 2014 13:58 JimmiC wrote:
Item thought to be useless and bad by most people.
I'm starting the countdown till it's shown to be OP
that countdown's been ticking for what? 3 years now?
Support autos are not worthless, but they're by and large insignificant. At the very least, insignificant enough that spending 360/800 gold on a long sword/vamp scepter is NOT worth it. The argument isn't whether or not support autos do anything in fights, but whether support autos are significant enough to justify buying AD.
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This just in, supports in korea are starting longsword now!
+ Show Spoiler +Incase your sarcast-o-meter is failing...you need a new one
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On June 19 2014 14:12 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
Surely Thresh is the exception to the "support autos are useless" argument?
His autoattacks are obviously spell modified, but that still doesn't make Zeke's a worthy buy in most situations.
semi-tangential point about Thresh. His kit offers so much utility (which I don't really have a problem with), but what I don't get is why he needs free damage on ability that already has a godly active, and then gives it godly passive damage too? like what the living fuck?
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On June 19 2014 14:14 Ethelis wrote:This just in, supports in korea are starting longsword now! + Show Spoiler +Incase your sarcast-o-meter is failing...you need a new one
Next thing you know, supports go on strike and demand equal farm with adc.
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On June 19 2014 14:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:12 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
Surely Thresh is the exception to the "support autos are useless" argument? His autoattacks are obviously spell modified, but that still doesn't make Zeke's a worthy buy in most situations. semi-tangential point about Thresh. His kit offers so much utility (which I don't really have a problem with), but what I don't get is why he needs free damage on ability that already has a godly active, and then gives it godly passive damage too? like what the living fuck?
It's so scrubs like me can win games by abusing strong champions.
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despite all my anger at this patch. the new support item is actually a pretty cool idea, and took them long enough to fucking implement.
also, new nid is fucking silly, shit hits like a fucking truck with the empowered q.
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8 different people responding to a theoretical disgreement between sufficiency and princexizor is like a level in the dante's hell videogame.
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On June 19 2014 14:23 chalice wrote:
8 different people responding to a theoretical disgreement between sufficiency and princexizor is like a level in the dante's hell videogame.
you mean Dantes Inferno?
To be a god of war clone that game was fun imo.
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On June 19 2014 14:12 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 13:58 JimmiC wrote:
Item thought to be useless and bad by most people.
I'm starting the countdown till it's shown to be OP that countdown's been ticking for what? 3 years now? Support autos are not worthless, but they're by and large insignificant. At the very least, insignificant enough that spending 360/800 gold on a long sword/vamp scepter is NOT worth it. The argument isn't whether or not support autos do anything in fights, but whether support autos are significant enough to justify buying AD.
support autos are significant enough to justify spending 360 on a minor power jump before you decide you can finish zeke's right before a push or team fight, because no one is arguing that a kindlegem is bad on support. the 1300 gold jump from long sword kindlegem -> zeke's isn't large enough to say its not worth the very significant power jump in team fights/tower pushes.
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But you can put that money into other things which are larger immediate and intermediate power spikes and that is a reason to not buy the item.
I say this as someone who buys zekes all the damned time. It's hard to justify getting and most of the times I do its a happy accident where I end up with 2000 gold on a back because we just had a teamfight after a dragon and I didn't get a chance to buy before that and I also already have a kindle gem in my inventory.
It's good enough that it is worth sitting on a kindlegem invade you have a happy accident (and don't end up needing something else kindle gem builds into)
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On June 19 2014 14:56 Goumindong wrote:
But you can put that money into other things which are larger immediate and intermediate power spikes and that is a reason to not buy the item.
I say this as someone who buys zekes all the damned time. It's hard to justify getting and most of the times I do its a happy accident where I end up with 2000 gold on a back because we just had a teamfight after a dragon and I didn't get a chance to buy before that and I also already have a kindle gem in my inventory.
It's good enough that it is worth sitting on a kindlegem invade you have a happy accident (and don't end up needing something else kindle gem builds into)
There are few power spikes for 1300 gold as great as a zekes is for your team, there are immediate needs that can be put above the zekes, but there aren't any 1300 gold purchases that provide the team fight power that zeke's does.
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On June 19 2014 14:44 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 19 2014 13:58 JimmiC wrote:
Item thought to be useless and bad by most people.
I'm starting the countdown till it's shown to be OP that countdown's been ticking for what? 3 years now? Support autos are not worthless, but they're by and large insignificant. At the very least, insignificant enough that spending 360/800 gold on a long sword/vamp scepter is NOT worth it. The argument isn't whether or not support autos do anything in fights, but whether support autos are significant enough to justify buying AD. support autos are significant enough to justify spending 360 on a minor power jump before you decide you can finish zeke's right before a push or team fight, because no one is arguing that a kindlegem is bad on support. the 1300 gold jump from long sword kindlegem -> zeke's isn't large enough to say its not worth the very significant power jump in team fights/tower pushes.
When you buy the long sword, you've already decided to go for zekes. Dont try to tell me you buy long swords on supports cause they can auto attack?
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On June 19 2014 13:47 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you guys think support auto attacks mean nothing in fights i challenge you guys to go through a whole game as support without auto attacking in fights.
Normally this forum gives you way too much crap for simply being outside the box. But, outside the first few major interactions in bot lane (ie: before you could possibly have a zekes), suggesting that support auto attacks are significant in the average game is simply silly.
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EPT
