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On June 19 2014 09:21 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 08:54 obesechicken13 wrote:
I dunno, I got botrk and hydra for lane sustain. They're incidentally insane dueling tools too but if they didn't have lifesteal on them I'd probably get something else.
Like a big reason why I go botrk first Jax instead of Triforce is because then I don't have to sit on a vamp scepter. The lifesteal in lane is really good on even just a vamp scepter. Like if you're healing back for 10 damage a hit on minions and your opponent isn't then you're probably going to eventually win lane on a health advantage even if they have 10 more AD.
Seriously? No one goes botrk or hydra first for the lifesteal? I'm alone here too? There is a reason most Renektons sit on Tiamat for a while... But yes, they are good lane sustain items, but are also good other items. There is a reason that even in the most poke-oriented lane situation (early botlane) you spend your 1600 on BF + Pot instead of 2 vamps and boots. Edit, hell this is why they had to change teleport just to deal with the Renekton issue because he would bully you with his damage and free sustain, and then come back to lane with a giants belt + something and you have a sad, sad, vamp scepter and he trololos because you need to auto like 30 times to make up that much HP.
Because Tiamat alone already gives 15hp regen, that is enough sustain for a manaless champion. Tiamat + Doran shield = wtf
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United States15536 Posts
On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Show nested quote +Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
I lol'd
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ADC changes are part of Ritos secret plan to bring back the Ashe/Zyra lane to ensure C9 wins Summer.
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fixed a bug where a support item that was+ Show Spoiler + slot inefficient, cost efficient, situational/core buy dependant on champion and had a meaningful active making it possibly the best designed support item
They added cdr which you cant get anywhere else if you want it and more mana regen which you dont need. We needed more items like crucible not another 850g on it. I thought riot wanted supports to buy items so why are they making the build up that much slower. Plus if i ended up with an early chalice i cant upgrade it to get an early mikaels which was an interesting thing to do. Are they mad that people didn't buy their new mana gen item enough?
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On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat.
do you intentionally say things that are demonstrably false, or are you actually just that stupid?
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On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Show nested quote +Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
yes. tank swain ftw
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On June 19 2014 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
yes. tank swain ftw
What if you bought it on ryze?? would you lose all your scaling?
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On June 19 2014 10:05 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
yes. tank swain ftw What if you bought it on ryze?? would you lose all your scaling?
Who needs scaling when you oneshot everyone as Kog and Kassadin?
Can the new nid jungle?
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The item itself (essence reaver) is ok when you have it, the efficiency is pretty solid. Its just the buildup thats really fucking wierd. It gives you mana sustain (which you need most early and in lane), based on autoing (which you do most in lane), but provides it only when laning is almost or entirely over. Its just....wrong and confusing.
If you look at the history of items with decent outcomes but shit builds, its not looking good.
The explanation for this retard item is easy though. Riot wants you to be mana limited in lane, but not in teamfighting. It's the same reasoning behind nerfing grail regen but increasing the mana restored on kill and assist.
INB4 new champ with passive that removes/reduces its mana costs when in proximity to multiple enemies
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Essence Reaver seems like it would the new Bronze OP item where you get 4 cs a wave and are still laning at 30 mins
Would spice up Bronze games to be fun and that is over 60% of games played
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On June 19 2014 10:12 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 10:05 layabout wrote:On June 19 2014 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
yes. tank swain ftw What if you bought it on ryze?? would you lose all your scaling? Who needs scaling when you oneshot everyone as Kog and Kassadin? Can the new nid jungle?
jungle mobs probably give too much experience for the cougar ;D
jokes aside i'd be interested in seeing a nid jungle work now
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On June 19 2014 10:20 sob3k wrote:
The item itself (essence reaver) is ok when you have it, the efficiency is pretty solid. Its just the buildup thats really fucking wierd. It gives you mana sustain (which you need most early and in lane), based on autoing (which you do most in lane), but provides it only when laning is almost or entirely over. Its just....wrong and confusing.
If you look at the history of items with decent outcomes but shit builds, its not looking good.
The explanation for this retard item is easy though. Riot wants you to be mana limited in lane, but not in teamfighting. It's the same reasoning behind nerfing grail regen but increasing the mana restored on kill and assist.
On the other hand though, if you have the item too early, you don't have enough damage and atk speed to make use of it.
Imagine, a lvl 10 Jarvan, Jax, Jayce have 600 mana. For example, they only have 200 mana left, so the restored mana would be 4% of their physical basic attack, which in case, maybe around 150-200 damage. That is 8 mana/hit. That sounds little, but by the time J4's Q or Jax'W is off cd, they should regen enough mana to perform it again.
On June 19 2014 10:25 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 10:12 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 19 2014 10:05 layabout wrote:On June 19 2014 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
yes. tank swain ftw What if you bought it on ryze?? would you lose all your scaling? Who needs scaling when you oneshot everyone as Kog and Kassadin? Can the new nid jungle? jungle mobs probably give too much experience for the cougar ;D jokes aside i'd be interested in seeing a nid jungle work now
Nightblue3 is doing it. It works, but fairly weak from what I've seen. Normal invasion from Lee, Elise or Path can screw you up pretty hard. The cougar only strong if you successfully land the trap or javelin.
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On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat.
The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first?
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On June 19 2014 10:34 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 10:20 sob3k wrote:
The item itself (essence reaver) is ok when you have it, the efficiency is pretty solid. Its just the buildup thats really fucking wierd. It gives you mana sustain (which you need most early and in lane), based on autoing (which you do most in lane), but provides it only when laning is almost or entirely over. Its just....wrong and confusing.
If you look at the history of items with decent outcomes but shit builds, its not looking good.
The explanation for this retard item is easy though. Riot wants you to be mana limited in lane, but not in teamfighting. It's the same reasoning behind nerfing grail regen but increasing the mana restored on kill and assist. On the other hand though, if you have the item too early, you don't have enough damage and atk speed to make use of it. Imagine, a lvl 10 Jarvan, Jax, Jayce have 600 mana. For example, they only have 200 mana left, so the restored mana would be 4% of their physical basic attack, which in case, maybe around 150-200 damage. That is 8 mana/hit. That sounds little, but by the time J4's Q or Jax'W is off cd, they should regen enough mana to perform it again. Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 10:25 Frolossus wrote:On June 19 2014 10:12 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 19 2014 10:05 layabout wrote:On June 19 2014 10:03 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 19 2014 09:43 jaybrundage wrote:Ok here is an idea to make this item good Essence Reaver
UNIQUE PASSIVE NEW Makes Champion Manaless
ATTACK DAMAGE +50
LIFESTEAL 10%
COOLDOWN REDUCTION +10%
RECIPE Vampiric Scepter + Pickaxe + 975 gold
TOTAL COST 2650 gold
yes. tank swain ftw What if you bought it on ryze?? would you lose all your scaling? Who needs scaling when you oneshot everyone as Kog and Kassadin? Can the new nid jungle? jungle mobs probably give too much experience for the cougar ;D jokes aside i'd be interested in seeing a nid jungle work now Nightblue3 is doing it. It works, but fairly weak from what I've seen. Normal invasion from Lee, Elise or Path can screw you up pretty hard. The cougar only strong if you successfully land the trap or javelin.
Yeah, that first clear is scary hard. I guess you'd take E first for the heal and AoE damage or W for the % shred on jungle mobs and chain 2 traps together. Invades are easier to deal with now I feel because everyone has trinket wards so you can ask your allies to ward your buff.
Then when ganking you'd be reliant on allied cc or your spears hitting and you being in range to WEQ.
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On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first?
if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes.
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On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes.
did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL.
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On June 19 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes. did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL.
if you are against a more assassiny composition then mikaels isn't as useful as having your disables off cooldown sooner. if you are against a very heavy CC composition then its more useful.|
its relative.
besides let's not forget this thread shitting on me for supporting mikaels as a good item when it came out.
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11589 Posts
Wouldn't essence reaver be a pretty decent buy on kog? Or as a replacement for BT in a TF ezreal build?
Or is it just too slot inefficient for a post laning item?
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On June 19 2014 11:52 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes. did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL. if you are against a more assassiny composition then mikaels isn't as useful as having your disables off cooldown sooner. if you are against a very heavy CC composition then its more useful.| its relative. besides let's not forget this thread shitting on me for supporting mikaels as a good item when it came out.
the item changed significantly in s4, especially relative to gold earned by support.
On June 19 2014 12:02 yamato77 wrote:
Wouldn't essence reaver be a pretty decent buy on kog? Or as a replacement for BT in a TF ezreal build?
Or is it just too slot inefficient for a post laning item?
it hits no useful timing, has no good build up, and is slot inefficient. And arguably not very cost efficient since the time you need the passive, you already have enough mana to do waht you need to do.
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11589 Posts
Idk, I think the extra mana sustain is pretty useful on those two even if they get by without it, like in an extended poke/siege situation.
But 50 AD/10% CDR/lifesteal is kinda underwhelming the longer the game goes on.
Maybe it would be better if they removed the pickaxe and 25 ad and made the item 875g cheaper, then gave it a BF upgrade later on so it's not a wasted slot.
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EPT
