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On June 19 2014 11:52 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes. did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL. if you are against a more assassiny composition then mikaels isn't as useful as having your disables off cooldown sooner. if you are against a very heavy CC composition then its more useful.| its relative. besides let's not forget this thread shitting on me for supporting mikaels as a good item when it came out.
Eh. Mikael's is also a huge on-demand heal. The ability to prevent an enemy pick-off is huge and game-changing. If it was just a cleanse, then it's probably a bit more situational. The fact that Mikaels also carries a huge heal makes it worth the buy in every situation.
The problem with Zeke's is that it has an awkward build up. The vamp scepter is more or less useless for supports, plus the 900 gold recipe cost also makes building it clunky. Even after ward/trinket change, supports still blow a good amount of gold on pinks. On top of that, Zeke's invests a lot of gold on the aura, which may not be all that beneficial depending on your teamcomp.
Comparing the two, I'd say Mikael's has more use in more situations. Also, Mikael's gives 10% cdr now.
To be fair, when Mikael's first came out, it was priced very awkwardly with unwieldy components and recipe cost. The item itself is poor stat-wise, so carries and solo laners won't want it. Junglers already have a limited income and usually can't afford to blow gold on items that don't help their survivability. It was only after Riot tweaked and buffed Mikael's recipe and cost when it became absolutely core. Patch 3.14 lowered the cost from 2500 to 1600, plus made the buildup hilariously easy.
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On June 19 2014 12:16 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 11:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes. did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL. if you are against a more assassiny composition then mikaels isn't as useful as having your disables off cooldown sooner. if you are against a very heavy CC composition then its more useful.| its relative. besides let's not forget this thread shitting on me for supporting mikaels as a good item when it came out. Eh. Mikael's is also a huge on-demand heal. The ability to prevent an enemy pick-off is huge and game-changing. If it was just a cleanse, then it's probably a bit more situational. The fact that Mikaels also carries a huge heal makes it worth the buy in every situation. The problem with Zeke's is that it has an awkward build up. The vamp scepter is more or less useless for supports, plus the 900 gold recipe cost also makes building it clunky. Even after ward/trinket change, supports still blow a good amount of gold on pinks. On top of that, Zeke's invests a lot of gold on the aura, which may not be all that beneficial depending on your teamcomp. Comparing the two, I'd say Mikael's has more use in more situations. Also, Mikael's gives 10% cdr now. To be fair, when Mikael's first came out, it was priced very awkwardly with unwieldy components and recipe cost. The item itself is poor stat-wise, so carries and solo laners won't want it. Junglers already have a limited income and usually can't afford to blow gold on items that don't help their survivability. It was only after Riot tweaked and buffed Mikael's recipe and cost when it became absolutely core. Patch 3.14 lowered the cost from 2500 to 1600, plus made the buildup hilariously easy.
its pretty big misconception that AD is useless for supports. you can go long sword+ kindlegem and then up it to zekes with little to no downside. if you are supporting without taking advantage of your auto attack you are a bad support. not to mention that 20% cdr is way better than 10%.
the argument this thread had against mikaels was not its cost, but that what it does was useless for a support and that the active was shit
and if your team isn't autoing during team fights then they are bad as well. even the most burst based of mages use auto attacks in fights if they are any good.
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Oh yes, the legendary midgame support autos. Where are you inventing this? Or are you rushing longsword pre sight stone and boots?
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So I tried Essence Reaver on top Udyr. It was bad. I assume Riot will buff this item once they see that no one is buying it. Also Ardent Censer seems pretty cool particularly on Karma, however I am not sure where to get it in my build yet.
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Ardent censor definitely comes after laning is over/almost over. The item feels good though.
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On June 19 2014 12:02 yamato77 wrote:
Wouldn't essence reaver be a pretty decent buy on kog? Or as a replacement for BT in a TF ezreal build?
Or is it just too slot inefficient for a post laning item?
Reaver is an awful buy on Kog or Ezreal. Just because an item that can give you mana back doesn't mean it's a good item. You need to autoattack a buttload to get back the amount of mana that you spam.
The item is not designed for general mana sustain. It's designed for efficient trading. For example, if you are Jax, J4, Jayce, Trundle, Irelia, you burn all your mana and hp for one combo to trade, then you autoattack minions to get some hp and mana back. When your spells are off cd, you should have a decent amount of hp and mana back to trade again.
The nature of the item ( %lifesteal, %"manasteal") is that you have to play aggressive to sustain. It does not regen you anything, you cannot freeze lane and play passive with it.
That being said, the item right now costs a bit high.
tldr: If you get Reaver because you're playing spam-spell champs, you're gonna have a bad day.
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On June 19 2014 12:24 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 12:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 19 2014 11:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes. did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL. if you are against a more assassiny composition then mikaels isn't as useful as having your disables off cooldown sooner. if you are against a very heavy CC composition then its more useful.| its relative. besides let's not forget this thread shitting on me for supporting mikaels as a good item when it came out. Eh. Mikael's is also a huge on-demand heal. The ability to prevent an enemy pick-off is huge and game-changing. If it was just a cleanse, then it's probably a bit more situational. The fact that Mikaels also carries a huge heal makes it worth the buy in every situation. The problem with Zeke's is that it has an awkward build up. The vamp scepter is more or less useless for supports, plus the 900 gold recipe cost also makes building it clunky. Even after ward/trinket change, supports still blow a good amount of gold on pinks. On top of that, Zeke's invests a lot of gold on the aura, which may not be all that beneficial depending on your teamcomp. Comparing the two, I'd say Mikael's has more use in more situations. Also, Mikael's gives 10% cdr now. To be fair, when Mikael's first came out, it was priced very awkwardly with unwieldy components and recipe cost. The item itself is poor stat-wise, so carries and solo laners won't want it. Junglers already have a limited income and usually can't afford to blow gold on items that don't help their survivability. It was only after Riot tweaked and buffed Mikael's recipe and cost when it became absolutely core. Patch 3.14 lowered the cost from 2500 to 1600, plus made the buildup hilariously easy. its pretty big misconception that AD is useless for supports. you can go long sword+ kindlegem and then up it to zekes with little to no downside. if you are supporting without taking advantage of your auto attack you are a bad support. not to mention that 20% cdr is way better than 10%. the argument this thread had against mikaels was not its cost, but that what it does was useless for a support and that the active was shit and if your team isn't autoing during team fights then they are bad as well. even the most burst based of mages use auto attacks in fights if they are any good.
Support autos are only relevant early game during laning. Post-lane phase support autos are more or less irrelevant (unless you're playing Sona). Even post-S4 gold changes, supports are still reasonably gold starved. If you throw 360/800 gold into a long sword/vamp scepter early enough for that 10 AD to be relevant, you're gonna be behind the opposing support in gold generation item timing, translating into a larger gold deficit, OR you'll be behind in terms of vision control.
I think Zeke's is a fine item, but it's not something I can imagine supports wanting to buy every game.
On June 19 2014 12:34 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 12:02 yamato77 wrote:
Wouldn't essence reaver be a pretty decent buy on kog? Or as a replacement for BT in a TF ezreal build?
Or is it just too slot inefficient for a post laning item? Reaver is an awful buy.
fixed
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On June 19 2014 12:30 YouGotNothin wrote:
So I tried Essence Reaver on top Udyr. It was bad. I assume Riot will buff this item once they see that no one is buying it. Also Ardent Censer seems pretty cool particularly on Karma, however I am not sure where to get it in my build yet.
Yea I didn't like it much either in regards to top udyr with the item 
We actually had an Ali support that got Censer. And it worked pretty well for pushing towers 25 as aoe buff OP
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ad is the least useful stat on a support. Only remotely useful the first 5 minutes of the game.
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On June 19 2014 12:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 12:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 12:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 19 2014 11:52 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:49 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 11:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 19 2014 11:02 wei2coolman wrote:On June 19 2014 09:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
lifesteal is something you should get incidentally or all in on with the new BT. and supports should be getting zeke's to compensate. supports use AD very well even if its not conventionally thought of as a support stat. The real question is why would you want Zeke's over Mikaels (even it's new pricepoints) or Locket? Because all three of these items are essentially the same, they're there to provide buffers for your ADC (shield/hp), in how many situations would you buy zeke's over these other two first? if you value your own cooldowns you get zekes over both. and the build up is better for support. saving 720 for a locket sucks more than getting parts for even a vamp scepter which still helps you in lane, and mikaels is only reletively useful in comparison to the team fight advantage of zekes. did you just say a cleanse is only "relatively useful" ???? LOL. if you are against a more assassiny composition then mikaels isn't as useful as having your disables off cooldown sooner. if you are against a very heavy CC composition then its more useful.| its relative. besides let's not forget this thread shitting on me for supporting mikaels as a good item when it came out. Eh. Mikael's is also a huge on-demand heal. The ability to prevent an enemy pick-off is huge and game-changing. If it was just a cleanse, then it's probably a bit more situational. The fact that Mikaels also carries a huge heal makes it worth the buy in every situation. The problem with Zeke's is that it has an awkward build up. The vamp scepter is more or less useless for supports, plus the 900 gold recipe cost also makes building it clunky. Even after ward/trinket change, supports still blow a good amount of gold on pinks. On top of that, Zeke's invests a lot of gold on the aura, which may not be all that beneficial depending on your teamcomp. Comparing the two, I'd say Mikael's has more use in more situations. Also, Mikael's gives 10% cdr now. To be fair, when Mikael's first came out, it was priced very awkwardly with unwieldy components and recipe cost. The item itself is poor stat-wise, so carries and solo laners won't want it. Junglers already have a limited income and usually can't afford to blow gold on items that don't help their survivability. It was only after Riot tweaked and buffed Mikael's recipe and cost when it became absolutely core. Patch 3.14 lowered the cost from 2500 to 1600, plus made the buildup hilariously easy. its pretty big misconception that AD is useless for supports. you can go long sword+ kindlegem and then up it to zekes with little to no downside. if you are supporting without taking advantage of your auto attack you are a bad support. not to mention that 20% cdr is way better than 10%. the argument this thread had against mikaels was not its cost, but that what it does was useless for a support and that the active was shit and if your team isn't autoing during team fights then they are bad as well. even the most burst based of mages use auto attacks in fights if they are any good. Support autos are only relevant early game during laning. Post-lane phase support autos are more or less irrelevant (unless you're playing Sona). Even post-S4 gold changes, supports are still reasonably gold starved. If you throw 360/800 gold into a long sword/vamp scepter early enough for that 10 AD to be relevant, you're gonna be behind the opposing support in gold generation item timing, translating into a larger gold deficit, OR you'll be behind in terms of vision control. I think Zeke's is a fine item, but it's not something I can imagine supports wanting to buy every game. Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 12:34 canikizu wrote:On June 19 2014 12:02 yamato77 wrote:
Wouldn't essence reaver be a pretty decent buy on kog? Or as a replacement for BT in a TF ezreal build?
Or is it just too slot inefficient for a post laning item? Reaver is an awful buy. fixed
I think if youre running an all AD team the lifesteal is very useful imo. I'll get it in the cases we have ad mid/top(even with like elise jungle or something) It's not as good as Emblem of Valor used to be, or even the old Starks but it's by no means a bad item
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On June 19 2014 12:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 12:34 canikizu wrote:On June 19 2014 12:02 yamato77 wrote:
Wouldn't essence reaver be a pretty decent buy on kog? Or as a replacement for BT in a TF ezreal build?
Or is it just too slot inefficient for a post laning item? Reaver is an awful buy. fixed
hahaha fu.
My point is, the item relies on you to autoattack to regen back, and champs like Kog or Ezreal spend most of their time using mana, so it's kind of an awful buy. For example, even if the item is reduced to 2000 gold, it's still an bad buy for Kog, maybe Ezreal, or Udyr.
On the other hand, if the item is reduced to 2000gold, it's a much better buy for champs like J4, Jayce and other tops. With 3300 gold, you can get Hydra, or Botrk, or Reaver+Brutalizer, or Reaver+allpart of Last Whisper, or Reaver+Hexdrinker, or Reaver+a part of TF. All combo choice seems to be much better than just a Hydra or Bortk alone.
That is why I think the item is simply gated by the awful recipe cost.
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Played a few games with Jayce with various reaver+manamune builds. manamune+reaver is ridiculously overkill for jayce's mana costs, you can hit every single button on cooldown with muramana toggled on and never run oom so long as you're autoing 4-5 times a wave(not hard with W), you'll probably drop to somewhere around the 20-30% range and stay there at worst, and if you just auto down a wave with muramana toggled off, you'll be back to 70% or so. You'll get both around the same time muramana finishes, so the timing is VERY strong, and very few people can fight you once that happens, with like 80 onhit damage+W and basically limitless mana.
At the same time though, it doesn't really help keep you topped off at the 80%+ mana range where muramana is the most effective without having blue buff(which defeats the purpose of essence reaver).
Next up for trial will probably be a tearless Jayce build with essence reaver, relying on the very fast 20%CDR, high mana restore(you can get more than 20 mana an auto in range form, 30 in melee) to stay fighting. Build path probably reaver>brutalizer>LW>IE/ghostblade
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This pounce change is throwing me off >_>. I can no longer pre-aim with my cursor for pounce away -> transform -> spear. Instead I just pounce into the enemy and die.
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if you guys think support auto attacks mean nothing in fights i challenge you guys to go through a whole game as support without auto attacking in fights.
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On June 19 2014 13:47 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you guys think support auto attacks mean nothing in fights i challenge you guys to go through a whole game as support without auto attacking in fights.
someone already said earlier, past 5 minutes or unless youre sona auto attacks from support are like being hit by minions and basically worthless
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On June 19 2014 13:48 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 13:47 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you guys think support auto attacks mean nothing in fights i challenge you guys to go through a whole game as support without auto attacking in fights. someone already said earlier, past 5 minutes or unless youre sona auto attacks from support are like being hit by minions and basically worthless
Damage is damage. If you're not getting focused and your spells are down then you should be using your autos during these down times.
Edit: I didn't see the above post about Zeke's. It's a terrible item on most supports. I build it when I troll support with Ashe. Please don't build it on Sona.
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Support autos are almost 100% useless after the laning phase.
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No damage is "worthless."
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Isn't the essence reaver meant to be combined with Muramana? It's mana steal based on missing mana so that would make the muramana active last longer.
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On June 19 2014 13:51 Sufficiency wrote:
Support autos are almost 100% useless after the laning phase.
You can probably do 300-400 damage over a teamfight with just autos, which is more than a support nuke would do. That damage is nonnegligible
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EPT
