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On June 19 2014 14:58 zodde wrote:
When you buy the long sword, you've already decided to go for zekes. Dont try to tell me you buy long swords on supports cause they can auto attack?
If its a game that zekes will be useful or powerful for the match, i'll pick up a long sword when i have the 360 extra gold, which usually ends up happening pretty quickly, and worry about getting the zeke's when any glaring needs are fulfilled. its not like slot efficiency matters too much for supports, so why not if it gives you an advantage in the now and is very useful later, then pick it up, no reason to sit on the extra gold unused.
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New Cait skin looks great, except for that stupid helmet.
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On June 19 2014 14:58 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:56 Goumindong wrote:
But you can put that money into other things which are larger immediate and intermediate power spikes and that is a reason to not buy the item.
I say this as someone who buys zekes all the damned time. It's hard to justify getting and most of the times I do its a happy accident where I end up with 2000 gold on a back because we just had a teamfight after a dragon and I didn't get a chance to buy before that and I also already have a kindle gem in my inventory.
It's good enough that it is worth sitting on a kindlegem invade you have a happy accident (and don't end up needing something else kindle gem builds into) There are few power spikes for 1300 gold as great as a zekes is for your team, there are immediate needs that can be put above the zekes, but there aren't any 1300 gold purchases that provide the team fight power that zeke's does.
Yes but we aren't talking about a 1300 gold powerspike. We are talking about purchasing a 360 gold item with one build path instead of any other items with more immediate and intermediate power spikes. Sure 20 ad and 10% lifesteal is a pretty strong powerspike. But most support actives can be game changing. Take spooky ghosts for example. It costs 2400 and it's upgrade cost is under 700. Relative to the zekes passive it provides 4v5s. That is super strong.
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AD is really only good because of multiplicative scaling
360 gold worth of AD (10 AD or other auto-based stats usually) alone is going to be worse than basically 360 gold of anything else honestly
Zeke's in theory is a good item, but unless you've got another ally in addition to your AD that that can really make use of the aura you'd be better off getting something else. I hear that Kindlegem builds into this item called Locket, which was actually recently buffed.
Maybe if you're doing something like support Lee or J4 or something unconventional and bruisery, but point still stands.
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Nah man, gotta get that Lulu machine gun going, or rapid-fire Braum stuns
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Maybe this will make sense Xizor. If zekes built out of kindle gem and codex and literally just lost the AP when you upgraded it would be an immensely better item. Just because I can justify buying kindle or codex almost all the time on the back line supports who get a lot out of indirect power and cdr. In fact if it built out of nearly any other 800 gold item it would have a lot more power.
I am now going to use this space to complain about cdr. Man why does every support item have cdr on it. It's near impossible to have a support and not cap cdr on the second item if you've got 10% in masteries and since CDR boots are generally the best "supportish" boots besides mobility it's even harder to do the "utility purchase thing" because someone who builds power isn't burdened with 30% cdr of gold wasted.
Edit: actually for serious here can anyone name any other 700-900 gold item (single or double) that zekes could build out of, besides vamp scepter, that would make the item worse than it is now assuming the final stats don't change at all. Frankly i can only think of three. Spirit stone, madreds, and recurve bow. Because at least avarice gives you 3 GP 10.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 19 2014 13:55 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Isn't the essence reaver meant to be combined with Muramana? It's mana steal based on missing mana so that would make the muramana active last longer.
The mana provided by Essence Reaver is miniscule compared to the rate at which Muramana spends mana.
Essence Reaver's mana restore is only really significant in the long-term. The % values provided just aren't that strong in the short term and you have to be autoattacking for considerable time to actually restore a decent amount of mana.
On June 19 2014 15:30 Goumindong wrote:
I am now going to use this space to complain about cdr. Man why does every support item have cdr on it. It's near impossible to have a support and not cap cdr on the second item if you've got 10% in masteries and since CDR boots are generally the best "supportish" boots besides mobility it's even harder to do the "utility purchase thing" because someone who builds power isn't burdened with 30% cdr of gold wasted.
Because Riot seems to be obsessed with the idea of having "support-only" items and CDR seems to make the most sense as a support-only stat, since defensive stats have value for frontline heroes.
TBH I don't see what's wrong with having support items that have value for non-supports to buy them.
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On June 19 2014 14:59 asymptotech wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 13:47 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you guys think support auto attacks mean nothing in fights i challenge you guys to go through a whole game as support without auto attacking in fights. Normally this forum gives you way too much crap for simply being outside the box. But, outside the first few major interactions in bot lane (ie: before you could possibly have a zekes), suggesting that support auto attacks are significant in the average game is simply silly.
Supports auto attacks are significant in lane and can mean the difference in their bot lane living with 10 hp or not. It can change the whole game around, so it is significant.
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On June 19 2014 15:33 TheYango wrote:
TBH I don't see what's wrong with having support items that have value for non-supports to buy them.
Could you imagine the fuck fest 5 crucibles would be.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 19 2014 15:42 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 15:33 TheYango wrote:
TBH I don't see what's wrong with having support items that have value for non-supports to buy them. Could you imagine the fuck fest 5 crucibles would be.
Obviously I don't mean for every support item.
Pre-nerf Locket, for example, I think was fine. The item was flexible enough to be bought on multiple roles, but also wasn't so good in multiples that you'd want more than 2 in most cases.
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On June 19 2014 15:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 13:55 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Isn't the essence reaver meant to be combined with Muramana? It's mana steal based on missing mana so that would make the muramana active last longer. The mana provided by Essence Reaver is miniscule compared to the rate at which Muramana spends mana. Essence Reaver's mana restore is only really significant in the long-term. The % values provided just aren't that strong in the short term and you have to be autoattacking for considerable time to actually restore a decent amount of mana. .
The essence reaver vs. manamune evens at about the 30% mana mark with 200ish ad, which is pretty bad. At 400AD(lategame jayce), it'll probably even out at 45-50% on minions, and if you have IE/ghostblade, you could probably get the breakeven up to around 70%. All of these assume low armor targets, if you're actually attacking people you'd very likely not get that much mana back. It'll be enough so that you couldn't possibly go oom, but in terms of sustaining muramana it does a terrible job.
It's much more of a laning item for somebody like jayce that you'd use to snowball, if you can get it early(~150 AD from dblade+reaver +runes + masteries/levels), and just dunk people with infinite spellcasts.
After further testing of tearless jayce, it's pretty good in combination with reaver. Once you get reaver+brut it's pretty impossible to drop to a point where you can't combo, and if you buy crit, it's amazing. It also means you CDR cap with masteries and CDR boots,
Lategame it takes only a couple autos to recharge enough for a spell(or 1 auto for two, in the case of IE crit on minion) even if you've been poking forever.
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On June 19 2014 15:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 15:42 Capped wrote:On June 19 2014 15:33 TheYango wrote:
TBH I don't see what's wrong with having support items that have value for non-supports to buy them. Could you imagine the fuck fest 5 crucibles would be. Obviously I don't mean for every support item. Pre-nerf Locket, for example, I think was fine. The item was flexible enough to be bought on multiple roles, but also wasn't so good in multiples that you'd want more than 2 in most cases.
RIP Bulwark.
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On June 19 2014 15:30 Goumindong wrote:
Maybe this will make sense Xizor. If zekes built out of kindle gem and codex and literally just lost the AP when you upgraded it would be an immensely better item. Just because I can justify buying kindle or codex almost all the time on the back line supports who get a lot out of indirect power and cdr. In fact if it built out of nearly any other 800 gold item it would have a lot more power.
I am now going to use this space to complain about cdr. Man why does every support item have cdr on it. It's near impossible to have a support and not cap cdr on the second item if you've got 10% in masteries and since CDR boots are generally the best "supportish" boots besides mobility it's even harder to do the "utility purchase thing" because someone who builds power isn't burdened with 30% cdr of gold wasted.
Edit: actually for serious here can anyone name any other 700-900 gold item (single or double) that zekes could build out of, besides vamp scepter, that would make the item worse than it is now assuming the final stats don't change at all. Frankly i can only think of three. Spirit stone, madreds, and recurve bow. Because at least avarice gives you 3 GP 10.
so the item is bad because it could be better. got it. even though there isn't a single item for <400 gold that provides a power spike like long sword except boots. if you can't justify spending <400 gold on an item that provides an immediate benefit to you and your team then i don't know what you want from items. apparently you want a 800 cost zhonyas.
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Does anyone use cdr per levels runes? I've been using them quite a bit because with only one 20% cdr item, it gets you really close to 40.
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On June 19 2014 16:29 Dark_Chill wrote:
Does anyone use cdr per levels runes? I've been using them quite a bit because with only one 20% cdr item, it gets you really close to 40.
I've experimented with it on some toplane matchups, and jungle builds. Usually they work pretty well in lanes you can afford to have a few less MR runes.
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I just have a few questions that I can't answer on my own:
BT and BotRK, both of which are item options for an AD carry, were changed in this patch. Prior to 4.10, BT was a primary item bought by every AD carry because it was a cost-efficient and strong item at maximum stacks. With the buff to BotRK and complete change to BT, I'm not sure what lifesteal option I'm supposed to go with anymore.
Do you think AD casters such as Lucian should now buy IE or BotRK first now? BT gives as much AD as IE now, and BotRK has the potential to dish out more damage than BT in mid to late game due to its passive.
Also, how is Essence Reaver as an item for AD casters? Is it a must-get? If not, in what situations and against what enemies should you consider purchasing the item? When should you purchase it (first item, second item, etc) ?
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On June 19 2014 15:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:58 zodde wrote:
When you buy the long sword, you've already decided to go for zekes. Dont try to tell me you buy long swords on supports cause they can auto attack? If its a game that zekes will be useful or powerful for the match, i'll pick up a long sword when i have the 360 extra gold, which usually ends up happening pretty quickly, and worry about getting the zeke's when any glaring needs are fulfilled. its not like slot efficiency matters too much for supports, so why not if it gives you an advantage in the now and is very useful later, then pick it up, no reason to sit on the extra gold unused.
You know, if you just played standard you would probably raise up an entire division, because it sounds like you're spending a lot of your gold on dumb stuff that essentially nullifies the fact that you even have it.
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On June 19 2014 16:29 Dark_Chill wrote:
Does anyone use cdr per levels runes? I've been using them quite a bit because with only one 20% cdr item, it gets you really close to 40.
This is my standard runes when I play AP mid vs. AD. (page 11)
http://na.op.gg/summoner/rune/userName=obamasappendix
x3 flat CDR Quints
x9 Hybrid Pen Marks
x9 Armor/lvl Seals
x9 CDR/lvl Glyph
I build RoA/Seraph/DCap/Void Staff/Zhonya's.
It gives you more AP and survivability than the standard Athene's build so I don't mind the lack of AP runes.
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EPT
