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On April 29 2014 01:34 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 01:31 Mikau wrote:On April 29 2014 01:24 xes wrote:On April 29 2014 01:14 Mikau wrote:On April 28 2014 22:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Of all the terrible ways to think about competitive League (and there are many), EV might be one of the worst lol.
Collapsed lungs suck but apparently they're not as serous as it sounds and are actually "common." One of my friends had it, and we all freaked out and he basically said it's common for young men who are tall because their lungs are often stretched too much when they're growing and eventually one pops or something. It sounds scary but he said he just couldn't take a plane for a year or so and was otherwise fine? o.o? So hopefully he'll be fine.
Sucks that C9 won't be able to get stomped at All-Star's with their full roster and people will just use this as an excuse for why NA blows huehuehue. On April 28 2014 22:04 Keniji wrote:On April 28 2014 21:15 Mikau wrote:On April 28 2014 20:38 Keniji wrote:On April 28 2014 20:27 Mikau wrote:
In my experience (and the amount of anti-snowballing mechanics currently in the game suggest this as well) somebody doing badly decreases your winchance by more than somebody doing well increases it. If that is true then going into lane to not lose might be the bigger +EV play. How to you plan to win a game if everyone's goal is just not to lose? Or do you rely on your team to be better than their counterparts while you just stay even? How could you consider that a good player - as in, one of the best? Besides, your goal is not to go 50:50 win/lose instead of 100% even. So +EV doens't really makes sense. I don't think you know what EV means. Playing to not lose isn't the same as playing to go even. It just means minimizing the amount of high risk/high reward plays and instead take the low risk/low reward play. You can still play better than your counterpart and show it, it just likely won't show in flashy plays and a lot of kills/deaths, but in smaller things like towers taken/tower damage, experience leads and minion kill leads. Taking small safe 100% advantages instead of making huge towerdives that have potential to fail and give your opponents first blood, or snowball into objectives, or whatever. I do know what EV means. Playing to win is not herp derp tower dive with a 50% chance to succeed. And when you say playing not to lose instead of playing to win is +EV because a lead is less significant then being behind (which is weird in itself, as there can't be one without the other) then you assume playing to win turns into being behind as often as being ahead. The expected outcome of playing to win is determined on how good the player is in regards to his opponent I would assume. So yea, playing not to lose might be best if you are mediocre, and are fine with getting the best out of being mediocre. But you are not able to have a huge impact on the game. I do not think that is a mindset professional players should have, especially not those that strive to be the best (in their region). edit: But it probably all comes down to the definiton of "playing not to lose" and "playing to win" anyway. If all you guys have against the argument are strawmen you shouldn't have bothered to respond at all. Minimizing variance through tons of "safe" and "consistent" play isn't the same thing as maximizing expected value. Which still doesn't change the fact that expected value is a terrible way to think about this game, as if you wanted to model this, you'd have perturbations everywhere, in both the distribution and the value function, effectively meaning that the determination of "expected value" matters less with the decision you make and more with the parameters estimated. I never said that by playing safe and consistent you were trying to maximise EV. In fact, remove the mention of EV from my argument and what I wanted to discuss is still there. -Does giving away gold/kills/whatever negatively impact the game more than getting gold/kills/whatever (it feels like this from anecdotal evidence and I personally think the anti-snowballing mechanics make it true), and if so: -Does playing safe (or 'not to lose lane') or in other words go for low risk/low reward plays over high risk/high reward plays then become the 'best' way to play the game (yes I see how that can be misconstrued as maximizing EV). I'm not claiming it does, I was merely trying to throw it out there for discussion. But the problem is that if you go by this logic, the proper play in every single lane would be to sit there and do nothing. In LCS that works because your opponents will inevitably do something stupid and suicide, but for a team that's looking to be a world contender and playing against OGN/LPL teams, that's an easy way to be down 10k after 20 minutes without losing a single kill.
There's a big difference between playing safely and playing passively. Playing aggressively is generally playing to get a lead. Playing safely is playing to avoid ceding a lead. Playing passively is closer to letting the opponent do whatever he wants. Playing safely doesn't mean you NEVER take risks. It means you avoid taking unnecessary risks, even at the expense of getting further ahead (or getting ahead in the first place).
There are TONS of examples of safe play in esports, sports, other gaming. I think people just forget about them because they're much less memorable unless accompanied by periods of dominance. The easiest example off the top of my head is TI2-era LGD, who were safe often well beyond the point of passivity for most of the game. If you want examples in League, there are plenty of those, too. Score, Bengi, Zefa all play(ed) safely at the highest level. KTB was notorious for safe play around Baron (when they were good). SKT K actually plays incredibly safely in the midgame if they can get an early lead. I think there's been a safe team near the top every single season, in fact.
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On April 29 2014 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
lack of mobility is a big one imo, any strong early jungle going to make your life a living hell in botlane.
While true, that didn't stop Annie of Zyra from being (one of) the best supports at one time or another.
On April 29 2014 04:17 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 04:08 Mikau wrote:
Onto something more game related. I've bought Vel'koz recently and supporting with him is so much FUN. It's the most fun I've had in a while in league. His damage and poke earlygame is insane, and while is damage falls off I still think he's quite good later on in the game through his soft CC alone. Has anybody been playing him and how do you guys feel about him?
Note I haven't played him against competent competition (I'm silver) so his flaws (lack of mobility, no tankiness) aren't being exploited as much as they would be against good players, but still. It's good enough to be played in Champions.
Yeah I watched that game last week, but if you go by that metric then Malphite and Lee Sin are good supports too, and a case could be made for Kennen and Amumu (though that was just Edward and LCS not OGN). Good pro level picks aren't always good in low level solo queue and vice versa (take pre Feral Flare Master Yi for example).
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Malphite is a good support though. There are many merits to playing it, even without having Yasuo mid lane.
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On April 29 2014 04:29 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
lack of mobility is a big one imo, any strong early jungle going to make your life a living hell in botlane. While true, that didn't stop Annie of Zyra from being (one of) the best supports at one time or another. Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 04:17 Gahlo wrote:On April 29 2014 04:08 Mikau wrote:
Onto something more game related. I've bought Vel'koz recently and supporting with him is so much FUN. It's the most fun I've had in a while in league. His damage and poke earlygame is insane, and while is damage falls off I still think he's quite good later on in the game through his soft CC alone. Has anybody been playing him and how do you guys feel about him?
Note I haven't played him against competent competition (I'm silver) so his flaws (lack of mobility, no tankiness) aren't being exploited as much as they would be against good players, but still. It's good enough to be played in Champions. Yeah I watched that game last week, but if you go by that metric then Malphite and Lee Sin are good supports too, and a case could be made for Kennen and Amumu (though that was just Edward and LCS not OGN). Good pro level picks aren't always good in low level solo queue and vice versa (take pre Feral Flare Master Yi for example).
What works in competitive play is often more narrow than what works in soloq.
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Annie's burst made it so even if Jungler came, you could still trade 1 for 1, or 2 for 2 in a 2v3. Zyra had just stupidly strong disengage with her impossible to miss snare. Velkoz can be pretty good though, no doubt. But his vulnerability vs his strength definitely makes me question whether or not he's a solid pick.
i think for odd support picks, a lot of it has to do with how you play out the early game. If you can avoid the weak 2v2 lane matchups for the first few levels, then a lot of the oddball supports work out pretty okay.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 29 2014 04:36 Roffles wrote:
Malphite is a good support though. There are many merits to playing it, even without having Yasuo mid lane.
ALL GLORY TO BASED GREENTEA
Srsly though, if you want to learn support malphite hit up any AHQ Taiwan game, greentea played support malph for nearly the majority of his matches in GPL
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Baa?21243 Posts
Conan plays Velkoz a bunch in LPL.
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ganks shouldn't be a huge problem for an immobile soloqueue support since ostensibly you'll be warding much better than your average teammates.
also, besides a lack of scaling, i think a big reason vel'koz and zyra get played more at support than mid is because as long as you press all of your buttons at least once in a teamfight it's really not that big a deal if you die.
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Frost (ie CoCo) got wrecked by Vel'koz support
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On April 29 2014 04:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Conan plays Velkoz a bunch in LPL.
Velkoz support so rad. Good poke and tons of damage away from items.
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United Kingdom1027 Posts
As a CLG fan the past week has been wonderful.
New top laner and xpecial benched + tsm drama
Regardless of who is xpecials replacement, i think its safe to say TSM's botlane got significantly weaker
the clg fanboi in me is just rubbing his hands with glee
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
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what is even going on this week LOL
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What the fuck is going on... Holy shit. CLG started a chain reaction of shit.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
RIP. UZI CANT HAS CHEEZEBURGERZ.
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Such is life in communist China?
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If OMG acquires some of Royal's players though...
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 29 2014 05:50 wei2coolman wrote:
If OMG acquires some of Royal's players though...
Step the fuck aside gogoing yao got this shit.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 29 2014 05:50 wei2coolman wrote:
If OMG acquires some of Royal's players though...
Yeah...Royal blows aside from Uzi.
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EPT
