On April 24 2014 16:07 zulu_nation8 wrote: skill cds can be timed but damage estimation can't and must be based on intuition. In fact most decisions are necessarily intuitive.
why can't damage be estimated? isn't all the necessary information readily available in game? things might get a little fuzzy with creep aggro, but at the very least you can make your guesses a lot more educated with the right preparation.
Because you're playing a game against people and not spreadsheets?
Do you think firefighters whip out the numerical analysis on heat equations and fluid dynamics or do they go by experience and intuition?
Firefighting has protocools, that have been put in place because of high level of understanding of fluid dynamics and shit (by scientists) that are boiled down to 'follow these rules because you're not smart enough to understand why' to firefighters.
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
You should never believe anything Lastshadow says lol. Ever.
He is a pathological liar,cheater,piece of shit not to mention offered lessons for money then ripped people off here on teamliquid. lol
On April 24 2014 15:38 chalice wrote:
On April 24 2014 14:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
i read it a fairly long time ago, really don't remember, if it was lastshadow it was in his ama on reddit.
i don't really see what is so far-fetched about it though, somehow i doubt kkoma is the only person in the skt organization doing analysis and research for both teams. creating a spreadsheet for skill and combo damage values at various itemization and level points for faker to study is something you could hire a reasonably intelligent high school kid with an interest in the game to do for like minimum wage and would give your team an information advantage over its opponents.
just because no one in the west takes the game seriously enough to make that kind of investment into preparing their players doesn't mean that teams in korea with real financial backing and coaching infrastructure don't. once you reach a certain level of mechanical skill isn't the whole game pretty much decision making based on the math of champion stats and time?
with correctly focused research, coaching, and practice i'm not sure there's any reason you can't give a mechanically gifted 15 year old kid a similar level of lane matchup or champion limitation knowledge that an elder statesmen like dyrus has been accruing naturally over years of experience. maybe this is exactly why you see new young and talented players popping up in ogn every season while the professional player pool in NA and Europe seems so stagnant.
That ama was basically a hilarious thread of him jacking his own cock and everyone feeding his ego.
he's been getting a lot of love on reddit lately. I think he's a big farce as well though. he's definitely more knowledgeable than your average LoL player but he's definitely not some mega knowledgeable pro player he seemingly makes himself out to be (former ozone house member blah blah). he's just another mid/high diamond player to me. he definitely exaggerates a lot of stuff and tries a bit hard to look knowledgeable.
I find it hilarious how instead of just saying 'move here' he keeps saying 'direct input'.
On April 24 2014 16:07 zulu_nation8 wrote: skill cds can be timed but damage estimation can't and must be based on intuition. In fact most decisions are necessarily intuitive.
why can't damage be estimated? isn't all the necessary information readily available in game? things might get a little fuzzy with creep aggro, but at the very least you can make your guesses a lot more educated with the right preparation.
i guess there is the issue of whether or not memorizing the information is actually more useful than just repeatedly playing specific lane matchups with a practice partner though.
It's possible but it's not realistic. Look at how often pro players miss smite when that is a pretty simple timing issue.
Anyway in a burst situation you have to know four things. Your unmodified damage, their hp, their effective armor, their effective mr. Your I modified damage is pretty easy. You know your full ratio and base damages (at the very least roughly) and you can read your AP. You can calculate your burst ahead of time so that you don't have to look. If I am lux and level 16 I can say 1200 + 2.05 AP. 400 AP is 810 so 2000 damage burst minimum (more with autos/ignite)
But then I have to figure it out for the enemy hp/mr/armor. So I have to have them in vision long enough to see their mr/armor and I have to be able to click on them before I am planning my burst to read their HP. I have to recalculate every back.
If it's a burst situation you can only do this if the enemy is in vision long enough (as their hp is changing). In those situations you have the time to do this, great. But largely the situations where it's going to be possible are the situations where these opportunities are going to be fleeting and fast with little to no time to prep.
Importantly while this is going on you need to be giving full attention to your positioning, cooldowns, enemy cooldowns, etc making the overhead to do the calculation even if it's simple, very high.
Alternately the action will have an obvious dominated solution (as in yes always engage its obvious you win the exchange) or (no don't its obvious you lose).
Add all this together and it seems reasonable that precise values are good(especially during laning) but intuitive estimates are probably better. Additionally things like cooldowns like heal and shields are going to make far more of an impact than the difference between your intuitive and precise calculation so it's better to take the mental energy to track those.
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
You should never believe anything Lastshadow says lol. Ever.
He is a pathological liar,cheater,piece of shit not to mention offered lessons for money then ripped people off here on teamliquid. lol
On April 24 2014 15:38 chalice wrote:
On April 24 2014 14:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
i read it a fairly long time ago, really don't remember, if it was lastshadow it was in his ama on reddit.
i don't really see what is so far-fetched about it though, somehow i doubt kkoma is the only person in the skt organization doing analysis and research for both teams. creating a spreadsheet for skill and combo damage values at various itemization and level points for faker to study is something you could hire a reasonably intelligent high school kid with an interest in the game to do for like minimum wage and would give your team an information advantage over its opponents.
just because no one in the west takes the game seriously enough to make that kind of investment into preparing their players doesn't mean that teams in korea with real financial backing and coaching infrastructure don't. once you reach a certain level of mechanical skill isn't the whole game pretty much decision making based on the math of champion stats and time?
with correctly focused research, coaching, and practice i'm not sure there's any reason you can't give a mechanically gifted 15 year old kid a similar level of lane matchup or champion limitation knowledge that an elder statesmen like dyrus has been accruing naturally over years of experience. maybe this is exactly why you see new young and talented players popping up in ogn every season while the professional player pool in NA and Europe seems so stagnant.
That ama was basically a hilarious thread of him jacking his own cock and everyone feeding his ego.
he's been getting a lot of love on reddit lately. I think he's a big farce as well though. he's definitely more knowledgeable than your average LoL player but he's definitely not some mega knowledgeable pro player he seemingly makes himself out to be (former ozone house member blah blah). he's just another mid/high diamond player to me. he definitely exaggerates a lot of stuff and tries a bit hard to look knowledgeable.
I find it hilarious how instead of just saying 'move here' he keeps saying 'direct input'.
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
You should never believe anything Lastshadow says lol. Ever.
He is a pathological liar,cheater,piece of shit not to mention offered lessons for money then ripped people off here on teamliquid. lol
On April 24 2014 15:38 chalice wrote:
On April 24 2014 14:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
i read it a fairly long time ago, really don't remember, if it was lastshadow it was in his ama on reddit.
i don't really see what is so far-fetched about it though, somehow i doubt kkoma is the only person in the skt organization doing analysis and research for both teams. creating a spreadsheet for skill and combo damage values at various itemization and level points for faker to study is something you could hire a reasonably intelligent high school kid with an interest in the game to do for like minimum wage and would give your team an information advantage over its opponents.
just because no one in the west takes the game seriously enough to make that kind of investment into preparing their players doesn't mean that teams in korea with real financial backing and coaching infrastructure don't. once you reach a certain level of mechanical skill isn't the whole game pretty much decision making based on the math of champion stats and time?
with correctly focused research, coaching, and practice i'm not sure there's any reason you can't give a mechanically gifted 15 year old kid a similar level of lane matchup or champion limitation knowledge that an elder statesmen like dyrus has been accruing naturally over years of experience. maybe this is exactly why you see new young and talented players popping up in ogn every season while the professional player pool in NA and Europe seems so stagnant.
That ama was basically a hilarious thread of him jacking his own cock and everyone feeding his ego.
he's been getting a lot of love on reddit lately. I think he's a big farce as well though. he's definitely more knowledgeable than your average LoL player but he's definitely not some mega knowledgeable pro player he seemingly makes himself out to be (former ozone house member blah blah). he's just another mid/high diamond player to me. he definitely exaggerates a lot of stuff and tries a bit hard to look knowledgeable.
I find it hilarious how instead of just saying 'move here' he keeps saying 'direct input'.
Like really?
Uh, what?
He says "DI" instead of move.
what so instead of "i'm going to move over here" it's "i'm going to direct input over here" ?
I just tried listening to one of lashshadow's coaching and honestly he reminds me so much of montecristo just overcomplicating random stuff for no reason.I guess he wants to sound smarter or some shit.
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
You should never believe anything Lastshadow says lol. Ever.
He is a pathological liar,cheater,piece of shit not to mention offered lessons for money then ripped people off here on teamliquid. lol
On April 24 2014 15:38 chalice wrote:
On April 24 2014 14:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
i read it a fairly long time ago, really don't remember, if it was lastshadow it was in his ama on reddit.
i don't really see what is so far-fetched about it though, somehow i doubt kkoma is the only person in the skt organization doing analysis and research for both teams. creating a spreadsheet for skill and combo damage values at various itemization and level points for faker to study is something you could hire a reasonably intelligent high school kid with an interest in the game to do for like minimum wage and would give your team an information advantage over its opponents.
just because no one in the west takes the game seriously enough to make that kind of investment into preparing their players doesn't mean that teams in korea with real financial backing and coaching infrastructure don't. once you reach a certain level of mechanical skill isn't the whole game pretty much decision making based on the math of champion stats and time?
with correctly focused research, coaching, and practice i'm not sure there's any reason you can't give a mechanically gifted 15 year old kid a similar level of lane matchup or champion limitation knowledge that an elder statesmen like dyrus has been accruing naturally over years of experience. maybe this is exactly why you see new young and talented players popping up in ogn every season while the professional player pool in NA and Europe seems so stagnant.
That ama was basically a hilarious thread of him jacking his own cock and everyone feeding his ego.
he's been getting a lot of love on reddit lately. I think he's a big farce as well though. he's definitely more knowledgeable than your average LoL player but he's definitely not some mega knowledgeable pro player he seemingly makes himself out to be (former ozone house member blah blah). he's just another mid/high diamond player to me. he definitely exaggerates a lot of stuff and tries a bit hard to look knowledgeable.
I find it hilarious how instead of just saying 'move here' he keeps saying 'direct input'.
Like really?
Uh, what?
He says "DI" instead of move.
what so instead of "i'm going to move over here" it's "i'm going to direct input over here" ?
On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote: You can play him at high elo and consistently win games.
Then why did we have this discussion at all, there's no champion who doesn't fall into this category
Because people like to be TL hipsters and talk about how they won a game with Sejuani ganking really hard for the totally awesome Mid Anivia. Then someone else comes in and says they won a game vs. Lucian Thresh with Ashe Lissandra botlane. And finally someone tells a story about his awesome Tryndamere games. Then all of the sudden they have a Sudden Clarity Clarence moment and orgasm about the all Freljord composition they just stumbled upon, and declare that it is "viable".
We continue to see Junglers taking over games. In particular, damage focused junglers frequently outlevel, outfarm, and outdamage their laning teammates without the level of risk that their counterparts are forced to endure.
...but then go and make Feral Flare, which encourages farming up for lategame damage with very little lane interaction. Not like this is news, but I don't even think Riot knows what they want with the role anymore.
"Turns out Maokai and Nautilus are shit when junglers like Lee or Elise exist who clear faster, gank at least almost as well, ad can't be invaded. Oops."
And sustain... Nautilus' shit at early levels because he does half a camp's HP till his shield breaks, then takes double that time to kill the remaining half while taking hits too. Maokai needs to spam spells to sustain in the jungle, with the high costs of W and E.
I wouldn't mind to see less gold in the jungle, in the sense that you keep a reasonable level of gold (maybe even buff it?) at the cost of Conservation and Flare's unique passive, meaning junglers don't feel obligated to keep taking camps once the laning phase (and thus "jungling phase" in a sense) ends, more easily allowing a more even distribution of farm. There would still exist the issue of letting "junglers" farm lanes at that point, but this is tied to player mentality and balance can't do much about that.
There are a lot of ways to tune Flare. Make kills and assist work toward stacking Wriggle's, once Flare is obtained you can cap its max stats, make the base on-hits weaker, make kills and assists provide 2 stacks while big monsters only give 1, etc. so that players don't feel detered from ganking before Flare, and are incited to start grouping and fighting more once they upgrade to Flare (which gives a PvP power spike). To prevent snowballing from a higher number of stacks, you can either reduce the value of a stack, or cap the number of stacks one can get.
To give more gold to junglers, you can modify Smite so that it grants gold upon killing a monster. Making it scale with the monster's original value (for example +50% gold) gives an incentive to save smite for big monsters instead of simply spamming it on cooldown, and also ties a camp's value into the big monster more, reinforcing counter-jungling by smiting an enemy camp's large monster. Smite cooldown can be adjusted according to this. This would also help ganking tactics: you don't get completely screwed the way you are now for doing it, but it can be tuned to avoid allowing s2 again. The goal would be to give you a minimum amount of gold if you tend to gank a lot and use smite on high-value monsters (like the Wight or the Big Golem) as it's available, while still having a clear difference being an unsuccesful ganker doing this, an efficient farmer ganking reasonably, and someone focusing on farming the jungle. Note that with the current jungle camps' level being set on respawn, camping a lane means that at least 2 camps won't get taken, thus reducing your gain when you finally get around farming them since they'll be underleveled.
Maybe it'd be possible to tie bonus experience gain with such an iteration of Smite too, so as to get rid of the "comeback experience" from the camps.
I feel like Lastshadow has some useful advice here, but he takes so long to explain every small thing and overcomplicates it so much for no reason. Then when there's actually something important, this is his reaction (should be at 20:55):
On April 23 2014 20:29 GolemMadness wrote: You can play him at high elo and consistently win games.
Then why did we have this discussion at all, there's no champion who doesn't fall into this category
Because people like to be TL hipsters and talk about how they won a game with Sejuani ganking really hard for the totally awesome Mid Anivia. Then someone else comes in and says they won a game vs. Lucian Thresh with Ashe Lissandra botlane. And finally someone tells a story about his awesome Tryndamere games. Then all of the sudden they have a Sudden Clarity Clarence moment and orgasm about the all Freljord composition they just stumbled upon, and declare that it is "viable".
before s4, "we want carry junglers to be viable" patch 4.5 "carry farm junglers need to be viable"
hardly "we hate junglers".
I feel like they just send a mixed message about Junglers. Like they say this...
We continue to see Junglers taking over games. In particular, damage focused junglers frequently outlevel, outfarm, and outdamage their laning teammates without the level of risk that their counterparts are forced to endure.
...but then go and make Feral Flare, which encourages farming up for lategame damage with very little lane interaction. Not like this is news, but I don't even think Riot knows what they want with the role anymore.
"Turns out Maokai and Nautilus are shit when junglers like Lee or Elise exist who clear faster, gank at least almost as well, ad can't be invaded. Oops."
And sustain... Nautilus' shit at early levels because he does half a camp's HP till his shield breaks, then takes double that time to kill the remaining half while taking hits too. Maokai needs to spam spells to sustain in the jungle, with the high costs of W and E.
I wouldn't mind to see less gold in the jungle, in the sense that you keep a reasonable level of gold (maybe even buff it?) at the cost of Conservation and Flare's unique passive, meaning junglers don't feel obligated to keep taking camps once the laning phase (and thus "jungling phase" in a sense) ends, more easily allowing a more even distribution of farm. There would still exist the issue of letting "junglers" farm lanes at that point, but this is tied to player mentality and balance can't do much about that.
There are a lot of ways to tune Flare. Make kills and assist work toward stacking Wriggle's, once Flare is obtained you can cap its max stats, make the base on-hits weaker, make kills and assists provide 2 stacks while big monsters only give 1, etc. so that players don't feel detered from ganking before Flare, and are incited to start grouping and fighting more once they upgrade to Flare (which gives a PvP power spike). To prevent snowballing from a higher number of stacks, you can either reduce the value of a stack, or cap the number of stacks one can get.
To give more gold to junglers, you can modify Smite so that it grants gold upon killing a monster. Making it scale with the monster's original value (for example +50% gold) gives an incentive to save smite for big monsters instead of simply spamming it on cooldown, and also ties a camp's value into the big monster more, reinforcing counter-jungling by smiting an enemy camp's large monster. Smite cooldown can be adjusted according to this. This would also help ganking tactics: you don't get completely screwed the way you are now for doing it, but it can be tuned to avoid allowing s2 again. The goal would be to give you a minimum amount of gold if you tend to gank a lot and use smite on high-value monsters (like the Wight or the Big Golem) as it's available, while still having a clear difference being an unsuccesful ganker doing this, an efficient farmer ganking reasonably, and someone focusing on farming the jungle. Note that with the current jungle camps' level being set on respawn, camping a lane means that at least 2 camps won't get taken, thus reducing your gain when you finally get around farming them since they'll be underleveled.
Maybe it'd be possible to tie bonus experience gain with such an iteration of Smite too, so as to get rid of the "comeback experience" from the camps.
Upon opening the spoiler: The heck? What is this, an Alaric post? Oh, yes... yes it is. Move along.
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
You should never believe anything Lastshadow says lol. Ever.
He is a pathological liar,cheater,piece of shit not to mention offered lessons for money then ripped people off here on teamliquid. lol
On April 24 2014 15:38 chalice wrote:
On April 24 2014 14:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
i read it a fairly long time ago, really don't remember, if it was lastshadow it was in his ama on reddit.
i don't really see what is so far-fetched about it though, somehow i doubt kkoma is the only person in the skt organization doing analysis and research for both teams. creating a spreadsheet for skill and combo damage values at various itemization and level points for faker to study is something you could hire a reasonably intelligent high school kid with an interest in the game to do for like minimum wage and would give your team an information advantage over its opponents.
just because no one in the west takes the game seriously enough to make that kind of investment into preparing their players doesn't mean that teams in korea with real financial backing and coaching infrastructure don't. once you reach a certain level of mechanical skill isn't the whole game pretty much decision making based on the math of champion stats and time?
with correctly focused research, coaching, and practice i'm not sure there's any reason you can't give a mechanically gifted 15 year old kid a similar level of lane matchup or champion limitation knowledge that an elder statesmen like dyrus has been accruing naturally over years of experience. maybe this is exactly why you see new young and talented players popping up in ogn every season while the professional player pool in NA and Europe seems so stagnant.
That ama was basically a hilarious thread of him jacking his own cock and everyone feeding his ego.
he's been getting a lot of love on reddit lately. I think he's a big farce as well though. he's definitely more knowledgeable than your average LoL player but he's definitely not some mega knowledgeable pro player he seemingly makes himself out to be (former ozone house member blah blah). he's just another mid/high diamond player to me. he definitely exaggerates a lot of stuff and tries a bit hard to look knowledgeable.
I find it hilarious how instead of just saying 'move here' he keeps saying 'direct input'.
Like really?
Uh, what?
He says "DI" instead of move.
what so instead of "i'm going to move over here" it's "i'm going to direct input over here" ?
Yep LOL
wonder if he thinks saying that makes him sound smarter l0l
On April 24 2014 13:46 chalice wrote: one of the things i read that about korean teams that i thought was interesting (can't remember if it came from monte or lastshadow) is that they have coaches just for math and timings. like there is a guy whose job it is to make sure the players can quickly calculate/recall almost exactly what combination of skills and how many autos need to be landed at each champion level/skill order/itemization and enemy mr/armor to kill someone with a certain amount of hp or how long it will take a certain champion who just backed to return to lane or make it to baron with various movespeed itemizations/skill usages.
these are concrete things that can be analysed by anyone who puts in the work and they provide real advantages over opponents who are basing their all-ins and dragon attempts on intuition and feel learned from repetition and experience.
Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
You should never believe anything Lastshadow says lol. Ever.
He is a pathological liar,cheater,piece of shit not to mention offered lessons for money then ripped people off here on teamliquid. lol
On April 24 2014 15:38 chalice wrote:
On April 24 2014 14:23 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: [quote] Source please this sounds a bit unrealistic.
I'd never take anything Lastshadow says as truth without another source.
i read it a fairly long time ago, really don't remember, if it was lastshadow it was in his ama on reddit.
i don't really see what is so far-fetched about it though, somehow i doubt kkoma is the only person in the skt organization doing analysis and research for both teams. creating a spreadsheet for skill and combo damage values at various itemization and level points for faker to study is something you could hire a reasonably intelligent high school kid with an interest in the game to do for like minimum wage and would give your team an information advantage over its opponents.
just because no one in the west takes the game seriously enough to make that kind of investment into preparing their players doesn't mean that teams in korea with real financial backing and coaching infrastructure don't. once you reach a certain level of mechanical skill isn't the whole game pretty much decision making based on the math of champion stats and time?
with correctly focused research, coaching, and practice i'm not sure there's any reason you can't give a mechanically gifted 15 year old kid a similar level of lane matchup or champion limitation knowledge that an elder statesmen like dyrus has been accruing naturally over years of experience. maybe this is exactly why you see new young and talented players popping up in ogn every season while the professional player pool in NA and Europe seems so stagnant.
That ama was basically a hilarious thread of him jacking his own cock and everyone feeding his ego.
he's been getting a lot of love on reddit lately. I think he's a big farce as well though. he's definitely more knowledgeable than your average LoL player but he's definitely not some mega knowledgeable pro player he seemingly makes himself out to be (former ozone house member blah blah). he's just another mid/high diamond player to me. he definitely exaggerates a lot of stuff and tries a bit hard to look knowledgeable.
I find it hilarious how instead of just saying 'move here' he keeps saying 'direct input'.
Like really?
Uh, what?
He says "DI" instead of move.
what so instead of "i'm going to move over here" it's "i'm going to direct input over here" ?
Yep LOL
wonder if he thinks saying that makes him sound smarter l0l
Honestly though you'd think he'd at least stop using the screen name 'lastshadow' ...
On April 24 2014 18:35 Alaric wrote: "Turns out Maokai and Nautilus are shit when junglers like Lee or Elise exist who clear faster, gank at least almost as well, ad can't be invaded. Oops."
And sustain... Nautilus' shit at early levels because he does half a camp's HP till his shield breaks, then takes double that time to kill the remaining half while taking hits too. Maokai needs to spam spells to sustain in the jungle, with the high costs of W and E.
Other issues aside, I do think your issue with Nautilus' clear isn't very accurate. You described how it works accurately of course, but it's not slow and hardly shit (unless you have to fight for it, then it kind of is). I run AS/Armour/scalingCDR/Armour on Nautilus and get pretty similar speeds (within ~5s) to Shyvana to reach level 4 (without leash for either), although level 4 is a timing significant for Naut and not all that significant for Shyv. It's possible I do something horribly wrong with Shyvana I suppose, but Naut certainly clears not much worse and with a higher health threshold.
Well, the fact that Nautilus relies heavily on suceeding if he ganks at level 3 because he only really starts clearing with level 2 Titan's Wrath (and thus needs to reach 4 asap if he skills Dredge Line at level 3) really gimps him in my opinion, but I noticed recently that I tend to gank at level 3 a lot more than the average jungler in my games, even when they play stuff like Lee, Elise, etc. unless their top lane is being pushed (in which case I countergank anyway), so my views on Nautilus may have been biaised by my playstyle more than I thought.
On April 24 2014 18:35 Alaric wrote: "Turns out Maokai and Nautilus are shit when junglers like Lee or Elise exist who clear faster, gank at least almost as well, ad can't be invaded. Oops."
And sustain... Nautilus' shit at early levels because he does half a camp's HP till his shield breaks, then takes double that time to kill the remaining half while taking hits too. Maokai needs to spam spells to sustain in the jungle, with the high costs of W and E.
Other issues aside, I do think your issue with Nautilus' clear isn't very accurate. You described how it works accurately of course, but it's not slow and hardly shit (unless you have to fight for it, then it kind of is). I run AS/Armour/scalingCDR/Armour on Nautilus and get pretty similar speeds (within ~5s) to Shyvana to reach level 4 (without leash for either), although level 4 is a timing significant for Naut and not all that significant for Shyv. It's possible I do something horribly wrong with Shyvana I suppose, but Naut certainly clears not much worse and with a higher health threshold.
No, within 5s of Shyvana is perfectly accurate.
On April 24 2014 19:43 Alaric wrote: Well, the fact that Nautilus relies heavily on suceeding if he ganks at level 3 because he only really starts clearing with level 2 Titan's Wrath (and thus needs to reach 4 asap if he skills Dredge Line at level 3) really gimps him in my opinion, but I noticed recently that I tend to gank at level 3 a lot more than the average jungler in my games, even when they play stuff like Lee, Elise, etc. unless their top lane is being pushed (in which case I countergank anyway), so my views on Nautilus may have been biaised by my playstyle more than I thought.
If you feel like a champion has to succeed with his lvl3 gank or he falls behind, you probably shouldn't lvl3 gank. Better take 2nd level in W at lvl3.
Does anyone else have a lot of trouble CSing after playing mostly support/jungle for a while? I've been supporting a lot recently, and now when I go mid my CSing is just terrible.
Directional Influence (comes from SSB games): when you get hit, you can affect at what angle you fly off to a certain extent. When flying off the stage, usually want to go into the upper corner of the map, as the maps are rectangular iirc.
On April 24 2014 20:21 GolemMadness wrote: Does anyone else have a lot of trouble CSing after playing mostly support/jungle for a while? I've been supporting a lot recently, and now when I go mid my CSing is just terrible.
I have played so many champoons with shitty animation that it has become very difficult for me to play a champion with good animation.
EPT
