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On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank.
also in lane he has to choose between maxing a harass skill or a waveclear skill, which hurts his lane phase strength quite a bit
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On March 07 2014 12:49 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 12:41 scrubtastic wrote:On March 07 2014 11:43 xes wrote:On March 07 2014 11:27 phathom321 wrote:On March 07 2014 11:20 oneofthem wrote:
seems like he doesn't know much about the kills and picks area of the game and choose to just focus on the macro rotations, which he can analyze better. but if you want to be the top top team having understanding of skirmishing is vital. it's basically how skt is so good. Right, but if a team played "perfectly", skirmishing wouldn't even be necessary if the team is just straight up out rotating and pushing the right objectives at the right time. That CLG vs Curse game with what, 8 total kills (?) is a good example. CLG didn't need to be fighting all the time to stay ahead and make it look so one sided because their map presence was so much better. No. If you want to take this to absurd levels, with zero decision making errors and zero execution errors, then the team that was outdrafted ever so slightly and didn't rune perfectly would immediately ff the game. bullshit there's always an element of double blind decision making: -fog of war. where the fuck is that jungler/roaming dude? you might say "well mathematically this is where the jungler/roamer *should* be" but the jungler/roamer is also thinking about that and may or may not decide differently. sure you can play scared and minimize losses but then you also lose the ability to take calculated risks in order to gain more advantages. if you play like some douchebag is hiding in the bush all the time waiting to gank, you will give up lots of shit. -skill interactions. T1K vs KTB, Ryu on Gragas runs down to the bot lane and chucks his R at Piglet on Vayne. If R connects, Vayne dies. Piglet can avoid it as Vayne but only if he guesses correctly on where Gragas will throws his R and then run/tumble/flash away from it. Turns out that in that game, Piglet outguessed Ryu and the barrel whiffs, allowing Vayne to live at least early on in the game before one team gets a huge advantage, there are lots and lots of double blind decisions to make that far surpass the effects of being slightly outdrafted or having a slightly different rune setup. Congratulations on being able to read context 10/10 would agree with you 100% again.
sry i'm bad at talking to people over the internet so i dunno how much i'm being made fun of
but "perfect" decisionmaking does not mean "the game is set 100% for the team with the better draft".
why would a team with "perfect" decisionmaking but the slightly inferior draft against another team with "perfect" decisionmaking immediately ff when all the double blind decisions being made in early game might net them a 30% chance to win? am I missing something here?
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On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank.
His ratios aren't impressive but his base dmg is insane, especially considering how easy it is to hit multiple people with them.
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On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank.
The reason his ult has a low ratio is because it applies 5 stacks of his passive. That said, riot has very strongly pushed the game towards high mobility champions so it seems very unlikely that a champ with no movement based effects or defensive utility could ever be a top tier pick in a solo lane.
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On March 07 2014 13:04 scrubtastic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 12:49 xes wrote:On March 07 2014 12:41 scrubtastic wrote:On March 07 2014 11:43 xes wrote:On March 07 2014 11:27 phathom321 wrote:On March 07 2014 11:20 oneofthem wrote:
seems like he doesn't know much about the kills and picks area of the game and choose to just focus on the macro rotations, which he can analyze better. but if you want to be the top top team having understanding of skirmishing is vital. it's basically how skt is so good. Right, but if a team played "perfectly", skirmishing wouldn't even be necessary if the team is just straight up out rotating and pushing the right objectives at the right time. That CLG vs Curse game with what, 8 total kills (?) is a good example. CLG didn't need to be fighting all the time to stay ahead and make it look so one sided because their map presence was so much better. No. If you want to take this to absurd levels, with zero decision making errors and zero execution errors, then the team that was outdrafted ever so slightly and didn't rune perfectly would immediately ff the game. bullshit there's always an element of double blind decision making: -fog of war. where the fuck is that jungler/roaming dude? you might say "well mathematically this is where the jungler/roamer *should* be" but the jungler/roamer is also thinking about that and may or may not decide differently. sure you can play scared and minimize losses but then you also lose the ability to take calculated risks in order to gain more advantages. if you play like some douchebag is hiding in the bush all the time waiting to gank, you will give up lots of shit. -skill interactions. T1K vs KTB, Ryu on Gragas runs down to the bot lane and chucks his R at Piglet on Vayne. If R connects, Vayne dies. Piglet can avoid it as Vayne but only if he guesses correctly on where Gragas will throws his R and then run/tumble/flash away from it. Turns out that in that game, Piglet outguessed Ryu and the barrel whiffs, allowing Vayne to live at least early on in the game before one team gets a huge advantage, there are lots and lots of double blind decisions to make that far surpass the effects of being slightly outdrafted or having a slightly different rune setup. Congratulations on being able to read context 10/10 would agree with you 100% again. sry i'm bad at talking to people over the internet so i dunno how much i'm being made fun of but "perfect" decisionmaking does not mean "the game is set 100% for the team with the better draft". why would a team with "perfect" decisionmaking but the slightly inferior draft against another team with "perfect" decisionmaking immediately ff when all the double blind decisions being made in early game might net them a 30% chance to win? am I missing something here?
Yes my point was that MonteCristo is delusional because his idea of "perfect" play isn't even "perfect" and the notion of "perfect play" is garbage in a game of asymmetric information. More importnatly, LoL is inherently more unstable of a game than say Chess or even SC2, especially because the micro-ability of SC2 is lower (compared to BW, so 10 Marauders always beats 8 Marauders), while in LoL tons of micromanagement outplays and all sorts of random stochastic garbage happens (crits and bizzare minion aggro AI). Coupled with how gold snowballs, these minute variations are amplined so that even running the same teams and same drafts into each other over and over (presuming they're evenly matched) you may get drastically different outcomes that are done injustice with simple arithmetic mean % winrates.
The idea that League can be deterministically solved in this strategical top down manner is one that Monte will obviously promote as "optimal" play because that is his natural bias coming from his perceived position in the community and his analytical preference.
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On March 07 2014 13:06 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank. His ratios aren't impressive but his base dmg is insane, especially considering how easy it is to hit multiple people with them.
I heard one suggestion that because his base damage is insane he could just go support. His ult and passive certainly don't need items at least.
IDK though, haven't tried it myself.
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If both teams had perfect decisionmaking and could predict the entire game and had the mechanics to back it up, creep focus fire RNG would determine every game and that would be stupid.
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On March 07 2014 13:16 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 13:06 wei2coolman wrote:On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank. His ratios aren't impressive but his base dmg is insane, especially considering how easy it is to hit multiple people with them. I heard one suggestion that because his base damage is insane he could just go support. His ult and passive certainly don't need items at least. IDK though, haven't tried it myself.
Saw a support Vel'koz on Nightblue's stream wreck a bot lane really hard. Granted it was against a Morg support, and she struggles against long range casters like that, so I'm still not sold on it but it looked pretty terror.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Velkoz support isn't too bad, actually.
Could max Q, has a ranged knockup, could save W charges for a fight instead of using them to waveclear, good base damage.
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On March 07 2014 13:16 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 13:06 wei2coolman wrote:On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank. His ratios aren't impressive but his base dmg is insane, especially considering how easy it is to hit multiple people with them. I heard one suggestion that because his base damage is insane he could just go support. His ult and passive certainly don't need items at least. IDK though, haven't tried it myself.
I've heard this too, he has great base damage, true damage that is not effected by ap, a knock up and a 2 sec 70% slow, I mean, it's not crazy that it might be good.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
im watching this twitch jungle going 9-1 in a game with piglet and casper lol. pretty hilariously effective wiht a morgana
guy's name is godfather twitch
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On March 07 2014 13:16 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 13:06 wei2coolman wrote:On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank. His ratios aren't impressive but his base dmg is insane, especially considering how easy it is to hit multiple people with them. I heard one suggestion that because his base damage is insane he could just go support. His ult and passive certainly don't need items at least. IDK though, haven't tried it myself.
Not enough utility. Maybe 2v1 fast push might work with him.
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On March 07 2014 13:25 Ketara wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Velkoz support isn't too bad, actually.
Could max Q, has a ranged knockup, could save W charges for a fight instead of using them to waveclear, good base damage.
Seems like the next Syndra to me. High power, but suffering from lack of mobility. The weird skill patterns make him hard to master, too.
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On March 07 2014 13:11 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 12:37 Shikyo wrote:
so in short cool idea but no mobility means he dies for free?
The ratio of his ultimate also seems awfully low. As a comparison, Anubis in Smite has practically the exact same ult except over 3 seconds and his ult's damage is 1300(+4.5) at max rank. The reason his ult has a low ratio is because it applies 5 stacks of his passive. That said, riot has very strongly pushed the game towards high mobility champions so it seems very unlikely that a champ with no movement based effects or defensive utility could ever be a top tier pick in a solo lane.
Well sure, but wouldn't it make more sense to make it have a normal base damage and normal scaling?
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On March 07 2014 13:52 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 13:25 Ketara wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Velkoz support isn't too bad, actually.
Could max Q, has a ranged knockup, could save W charges for a fight instead of using them to waveclear, good base damage. Seems like the next Syndra to me. High power, but suffering from lack of mobility. The weird skill patterns make him hard to master, too.
Man. I said the exact same thing and I got scoffed at.
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As a somewhat random aside, Nocturne' Paranoia hard counters Shen ultimate and Xerath ultimate, hilarity ensues. Despite initial misgivings, I'm finding that the fear change is quite helpful if you position your ganks properly. In teamfights, getting their adc to run back and away from their front line is almost a bonus.
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with all the supports like annie and morg etc., how come lissandra support never became a thing?
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squishy q has short range unless it hits something and everything else has really short range with her needing to go in
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On March 07 2014 13:25 Ketara wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Velkoz support isn't too bad, actually.
Could max Q, has a ranged knockup, could save W charges for a fight instead of using them to waveclear, good base damage.
jiji been doin it for a while in solo queue
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EPT
