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On March 06 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? It's only a timing for the first player to hit theirs without being harrassed, I think.
4gate is still commonly called a "timing" in isolation no matter what the opponent is doing.
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On March 06 2014 14:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? It's only a timing for the first player to hit theirs without being harrassed, I think. 4gate is still commonly called a "timing" in isolation no matter what the opponent is doing.
Ya but it hits at different times in different games. So really it's just an attack that happens when your 4th gate is finished building. It's a "4-gate attack" not a "4-gate timing."
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On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point?
I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against.
In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing.
I guess I don't understand what the timing word is aimed at, you call that "first item timing", I call that "got her first item"
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On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing.
How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference?
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The power item timing is as follows:
What do I need?
How fast can I get it?
What can I achieve with that?
A good example of a more consistent Timing from game to game would be sweepers:
You would like to have 1 early on your jungler and either when you get your sightstone or on first back as supp.
The Supp timing differentiates:
Sightstone timing is usually around 13min.
first back is usually a matter of a set of options (Much like SC2)
Can we grab objective control if I get this now?
Do we have a fast dragon clear?
will their buffs be up soon and will we need it for that?
Does the enemy support have one?
Are we ahead in lane?
If 2-3 of these are filled you can easily get a sweeper + a few wards around the 7min mark.
This also goes for the upgraded one ofc, a good mark (that atleast we try to use) is 2 upgraded and 1 reg. sweeper at 20min for the vision fight.
When it comes to pure items, you could say that you reach a power spike as much as a timing, but the word timing is a word that fits into the League dictionary by getting certain almost universal items (ward timings, sweepers some others) and by knowing the timer of objectives (Buffs, Dragon, Baron). Baron spawns at 15min, and respawns 7min after killing him which again means you have a timer to abide. Timing a baron and using what you know about their timers to setup offensive or defensively is a perfect example of using timing as an ingame value to help you win (we do this poorly as you might have noticed) and if done correctly can win you the game.
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On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. I guess I don't understand what the timing word is aimed at, you call that "first item timing", I call that "got her first item"
Your point? 4gate timing at 20 min mark is shit,
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On March 06 2014 14:18 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:17 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? It's only a timing for the first player to hit theirs without being harrassed, I think. 4gate is still commonly called a "timing" in isolation no matter what the opponent is doing. Ya but it hits at different times in different games. So really it's just an attack that happens when your 4th gate is finished building. It's a "4-gate attack" not a "4-gate timing."
This argument is silly. A timing [timing window, timing attack] and a power spike are synonymous. You just reached a time that your power curve spiked significantly. This could be due to levels (Level 6, 9, 11 are a bigger deal for some champs than others.) or items (especially items or item combinations that synergize particularly well with your champion's kit, like Lichbane on Fizz or Triforce on Ezreal.)
It doesn't even necessarily need to be exactly that - when I played Irelia in S2, the timing I paid attention to was level7 + Phage & boots - suddenly the lane goes from needing to play extremely carefully, CSing passively and only trading with the opponent when forced to, to bullying them and trying to push them out of lane with the higher levels of hiten style and the slow from [old] phage. The timing took both an item and levels, but that didn't make it "not a timing"
It's not just "when you got the item" but more "now that the time of (Item / Skill / Sweeper / Buff is spawning) has occured, we can DO SOMETHING. (Irelia example -> switch to playing more aggressively, early sweeper -> maybe make a play for dragon or invade their red at it's second spawn)
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On March 06 2014 14:27 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:18 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:17 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? It's only a timing for the first player to hit theirs without being harrassed, I think. 4gate is still commonly called a "timing" in isolation no matter what the opponent is doing. Ya but it hits at different times in different games. So really it's just an attack that happens when your 4th gate is finished building. It's a "4-gate attack" not a "4-gate timing." This argument is silly...
Exactly.
That was my point.
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On March 06 2014 14:22 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference?
I'll use a bw example cause it's easier for me.
In TvZ if you move out with your army just before lurkers pop out and you have no detection, it is called a timing push, if you attack just after lurkers are out and you still have no detection it is called a retarded as fuck move. there is a very tiny windows that is always there every game.
In league if vayne gets her item at 15 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 20 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 30 minutes it is still called a first item timing? i guess.
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On March 06 2014 14:30 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:22 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference? I'll use a bw example cause it's easier for me. In TvZ if you move out with your army just before lurkers pop out and you have no detection, it is called a timing push, if you attack just after lurkers are out and you still have no detection it is called a retarded as fuck move. In league if vayne gets her item at 15 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 20 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 30 minutes it is still called a first item timing? i guess.
When Vayne's getting her bork at a normal time, she suddenly shifts from being pansy as fuck to being one of the scarier things to 1v1 in the game. How is that NOT a timing? If it's a super late BORK, it's not a timing, its jsut her being behind, unless everyone on both teams are behind the normal gold curve because of some weird as fuck circumstance (or being bad)
Is vayne really going to get her BORK at 30 mins and be like "OK IM STRONG NOW" when everyone has 2k gold on her? No.
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On March 06 2014 14:30 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:22 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference? I'll use a bw example cause it's easier for me. In TvZ if you move out with your army just before lurkers pop out and you have no detection, it is called a timing push, if you attack just after lurkers are out and you still have no detection it is called a retarded as fuck move. In league if vayne gets her item at 15 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 20 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 30 minutes it is still called a first item timing? i guess.
Sure it is, because they are different games with different goals. No matter what time Vayne buys her Bork it's considered an important moment in the game. It signifies that Vayne is suddenly a much more effective champion on the battlefield. Although I would argue that anybody calling a BorK at 30 minutes any sort of "timing" or anything other than "Vayne got shut down" probably don't know what they are talking about.
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Wukong with 20% CDR is pretty retarded. The juke potential is so high.
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On March 06 2014 14:32 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:30 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:22 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference? I'll use a bw example cause it's easier for me. In TvZ if you move out with your army just before lurkers pop out and you have no detection, it is called a timing push, if you attack just after lurkers are out and you still have no detection it is called a retarded as fuck move. In league if vayne gets her item at 15 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 20 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 30 minutes it is still called a first item timing? i guess. When Vayne's getting her bork at a normal time, she suddenly shifts from being pansy as fuck to being one of the scarier things to 1v1 in the game. How is that NOT a timing? If it's a super late BORK, it's not a timing, its jsut her being behind, unless everyone on both teams are behind the normal gold curve because of some weird as fuck circumstance (or being bad) Is vayne really going to get her BORK at 30 mins and be like "OK IM STRONG NOW" when everyone has 2k gold on her? No.
But there is no such thing as a "normal time" no game is the same, you can't say that Vayne will get her item at that time mark. So yeah, Vayne gets her first power spike when she gets her first item, doesn't make it a timing.
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On March 06 2014 11:42 TheYango wrote:
Except again, that scenario already exists with Energy in the game because Energy exists as a short-term gated energy resource.
This is what doesn't make sense to me about that argument. Being gated by your resource in the short term is ok. Being gated by your resource in the long-term is ok. But being somewhat gated by both with skill power to compensate is somehow a bad player experience when the components individually aren't?
I think because Riot doesn't want champions in the game, which is casual at the round floor, that have a skill floor that is above a large portion of their customers. It's less of a design decision and more of a business decision.
On March 06 2014 12:25 TheYango wrote:
I mean, if we're talking about complexity, the fact that there even exist other modes of resource management other than mana could be seen as needless complexity.
The beauty of mana as a system as it exists in games like LoL, DotA, or other RPGs is that its infinitely flexible. By tuning the parameters of regeneration, maximum mana, ability costs, and availability of stats, you can span the entire spectrum with regard to short- and long-term resource limitations. There's no reason you'd actually need to use anything else if you properly tune the parameters on mana for each champion. Systems like Energy, Flow, Fury, and Heat are arguably just adding complexity without adding depth because mana as a resource already spans the entire range of resource management modes.
Rage and Energy exist in other games too. Most notably, WoW. Heat exists in ToR. Flow isn't a resource. Flow is bullshit.
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I really like Rumbles heat mechanic. I think it's very neat.
As opposed to say, Rengar, who can and should go die in a fire.
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On March 06 2014 14:41 SagaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:32 sylverfyre wrote:On March 06 2014 14:30 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:22 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference? I'll use a bw example cause it's easier for me. In TvZ if you move out with your army just before lurkers pop out and you have no detection, it is called a timing push, if you attack just after lurkers are out and you still have no detection it is called a retarded as fuck move. In league if vayne gets her item at 15 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 20 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 30 minutes it is still called a first item timing? i guess. When Vayne's getting her bork at a normal time, she suddenly shifts from being pansy as fuck to being one of the scarier things to 1v1 in the game. How is that NOT a timing? If it's a super late BORK, it's not a timing, its jsut her being behind, unless everyone on both teams are behind the normal gold curve because of some weird as fuck circumstance (or being bad) Is vayne really going to get her BORK at 30 mins and be like "OK IM STRONG NOW" when everyone has 2k gold on her? No. But there is no such thing as a "normal time" no game is the same, you can't say that Vayne will get her item at that time mark. So yeah, Vayne gets her first power spike when she gets her first item, doesn't make it a timing.
Sagaz is 100% right on this honestly
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On March 06 2014 15:26 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 14:41 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:32 sylverfyre wrote:On March 06 2014 14:30 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:22 Nemireck wrote:On March 06 2014 14:20 SagaZ wrote:On March 06 2014 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On March 06 2014 14:06 SagaZ wrote:
What I understand is that when a champion goes back to base to buy his first full item, you call that "first item timing" because since it is a big item and assuming it synergies well with his kit gives the champion a boost in power. Of course fully knowing that the "timing" of that purchase is different every game. What is weird for me is that it is devoid of the time aspect of the word since the moment you get enough money to buy and the moment you are free to go buy it are so different in every game.
It is simply a power spike I guess?
I don't get your complaint? 4gate timing is going to be different if he's hit by an enemy timing earlier than his. Your point? I'm guessing 4gate is some kind of timing push. If the opponent fucks with you enough then your push is significantly weaker, you miss your timing window, and it is not a timing push anymore, it is a "let's bring some units out of the base and try to fuck with this guy" that should be ineffective against a competent opponent since he had a lot of time to prepare against. In LoL if you get fucked in lane you'll still buy your botrk as your first item. So if vayne goes 0-5 and gets her botrk at 30 minutes, I guess it's still her first item timing, even tho at this point it means absolutely nothing. How are either of those scenarios any different from the other? Vayne, in a vacuum, will obtain her BorK at around, what? 14-15 minutes? That's her key item timing. If you harass the fuck out of her and shut her down, such that she doesn't buy her BorK til 30 minutes, isn't that the same as defending a 4-gate? What's the difference? I'll use a bw example cause it's easier for me. In TvZ if you move out with your army just before lurkers pop out and you have no detection, it is called a timing push, if you attack just after lurkers are out and you still have no detection it is called a retarded as fuck move. In league if vayne gets her item at 15 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 20 minutes it is called a first item timing, if she gets it at 30 minutes it is still called a first item timing? i guess. When Vayne's getting her bork at a normal time, she suddenly shifts from being pansy as fuck to being one of the scarier things to 1v1 in the game. How is that NOT a timing? If it's a super late BORK, it's not a timing, its jsut her being behind, unless everyone on both teams are behind the normal gold curve because of some weird as fuck circumstance (or being bad) Is vayne really going to get her BORK at 30 mins and be like "OK IM STRONG NOW" when everyone has 2k gold on her? No. But there is no such thing as a "normal time" no game is the same, you can't say that Vayne will get her item at that time mark. So yeah, Vayne gets her first power spike when she gets her first item, doesn't make it a timing. Sagaz is 100% right on this honestly
To be fair, timing attacks can be subverted in Starcraft as well by hitting the building force, production facilities, or economy behind it. A timing is as based around "lol easy early game pewpewpew RAMPAGE" as it is "I got dumpstered and am now worth less than bluebuff," because they aren't. Timings are based around "Okay, I got to X time with out any major setbacks, so this is a time when Y I want to do happens to be pretty strong."
It isn't "normal" time so much as it is "average."
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Or just make it simple. Timing = time when something important happens. Easy to identify in all games. Vayne gets Bork, 4gate push, whatever equivalent in broodwar. It's a bit arbitrary, sure (need to decide what's important, or can just say everything is a timing, but some are more important than others), but it helps to easily and identify certain moments in every game regardless of the actual amount of time passed.
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lose 8 games in a row then win 3 games in a row with pure ad garen what is the game trying to tell me
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391
EPT
