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On March 04 2014 06:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:21 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TL;IA aka Too Long It's Alaric] +Yeah man, totally the game's fault!
Damn, Hexakill down means it's gonna be harder to get the Garen games going.
After mentioning Olaf as one of the good current junglers right next to Wukong, it made me think, seeing how I've been unable to do well with him in soloQ from top, despite being matched against players theorically worse than me (post-placement and such) and felt like he had become really weak. Not that Riot necessarily wanted to nerf him with the rework (I don't think so), but the circumstances did it for them anyway:
- having less (arguably nowhere near enough) damage when built full tank means he has to get an offensive item, which skews his timings a lot
- resistances being crushed in favour of HP reversed the tendencies and made itemising against him easier, while nerfing his own laning against magic damage champs
- Q slow nerfs make his laning in general really awkward against anything that doesn't need to melee you to harass/fight you, and he gets oom (and thus powerless) even more easily against such opponents
- the meta enforces the "top lane island" with laners joining the rest of the team even later than usual. Because Olaf peaks in the midgame and is actually quite weak lategame (for the same reason that Caitlyn is strong, both of them in spite of their numbers), this, combined with the first point (meaning his midgame peak will be weaker than previously since he won't be able to have damage + both kinds of resistances at that point), makes him usually unable to exploit his peak, and he's close to be on the decline when he finally joins
- CDR itemisation got hit hard too, with FH, SV, Shurelya's nerfs or disappearance, while Olaf relies very heavily on it for both damage and stickiness
On the other hand, in the jungle:
- he gets access to more CDR itemisation thanks to the free 10% for the jungle item
- he can get his levels and some farm way more easily than top where his mana issues and troubles forcing trade (or fighting shovers) give him losing match-ups against most popular opponents
- through objective control and ganks he gets to fight way earlier than from top lane, making better use of his power spikes
- he puts less strain on his team since they can use a top laner who performs better than him, and will use the additional farm better, especially if it goes lategame (like Shyvana)
- lack of mana issues from the jungle thanks to the Butcher passive and big monsters' relics lets him use said mana in ganks instead, without running oom in 2 chases through a long lane
Of course pro play also has the advantage of being able to incorporate him in team comps that'll cover up his weaknesses and provide him with the initiation/mobility he needs to function (especially past midgame). I feel Olaf is massively underrated in general right now. So many people refused to pick him up after the rework because he wasn't as mindnumbingly op as before. It's like, what did you expect?
He saw some play a couple weeks ago, and he still sees play from jungle occasionally. He's pretty niche, and requires sivir to be used to his full effectiveness.
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On March 04 2014 06:28 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:27 Gahlo wrote:On March 04 2014 06:21 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TL;IA aka Too Long It's Alaric] +Yeah man, totally the game's fault!
Damn, Hexakill down means it's gonna be harder to get the Garen games going.
After mentioning Olaf as one of the good current junglers right next to Wukong, it made me think, seeing how I've been unable to do well with him in soloQ from top, despite being matched against players theorically worse than me (post-placement and such) and felt like he had become really weak. Not that Riot necessarily wanted to nerf him with the rework (I don't think so), but the circumstances did it for them anyway:
- having less (arguably nowhere near enough) damage when built full tank means he has to get an offensive item, which skews his timings a lot
- resistances being crushed in favour of HP reversed the tendencies and made itemising against him easier, while nerfing his own laning against magic damage champs
- Q slow nerfs make his laning in general really awkward against anything that doesn't need to melee you to harass/fight you, and he gets oom (and thus powerless) even more easily against such opponents
- the meta enforces the "top lane island" with laners joining the rest of the team even later than usual. Because Olaf peaks in the midgame and is actually quite weak lategame (for the same reason that Caitlyn is strong, both of them in spite of their numbers), this, combined with the first point (meaning his midgame peak will be weaker than previously since he won't be able to have damage + both kinds of resistances at that point), makes him usually unable to exploit his peak, and he's close to be on the decline when he finally joins
- CDR itemisation got hit hard too, with FH, SV, Shurelya's nerfs or disappearance, while Olaf relies very heavily on it for both damage and stickiness
On the other hand, in the jungle:
- he gets access to more CDR itemisation thanks to the free 10% for the jungle item
- he can get his levels and some farm way more easily than top where his mana issues and troubles forcing trade (or fighting shovers) give him losing match-ups against most popular opponents
- through objective control and ganks he gets to fight way earlier than from top lane, making better use of his power spikes
- he puts less strain on his team since they can use a top laner who performs better than him, and will use the additional farm better, especially if it goes lategame (like Shyvana)
- lack of mana issues from the jungle thanks to the Butcher passive and big monsters' relics lets him use said mana in ganks instead, without running oom in 2 chases through a long lane
Of course pro play also has the advantage of being able to incorporate him in team comps that'll cover up his weaknesses and provide him with the initiation/mobility he needs to function (especially past midgame). I feel Olaf is massively underrated in general right now. So many people refused to pick him up after the rework because he wasn't as mindnumbingly op as before. It's like, what did you expect? He saw some play a couple weeks ago, and he still sees play from jungle occasionally. He's pretty niche, and requires sivir to be used to his full effectiveness.
If only there was a way to fit Ghostblade into his itemization...
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On March 04 2014 06:11 Omnishroud wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:06 IMoperator wrote:On March 04 2014 06:03 Yezzus wrote:On March 04 2014 05:57 Alzadar wrote:On March 04 2014 05:55 IMoperator wrote:
fuck this game dude, just broke my second headset cause of it. $150 down the drain thanks rito Are you a human being or a monkey? You need to be able to control yourself, destroying your own property because you're frustrated is pathetic. Damn.....but yeah what this guy said....150$ really? Was breaking it worth? no but it's not like i wanted to break it, it just happens man. Lol, this guy is the epitome of toxic D:
i had go back and look at teh compiled list of what he says 10/10
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On March 04 2014 06:30 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 05:57 Alzadar wrote:On March 04 2014 05:55 IMoperator wrote:
fuck this game dude, just broke my second headset cause of it. $150 down the drain thanks rito Are you a human being or a monkey? You need to be able to control yourself, destroying your own property because you're frustrated is pathetic. Come on, clearly its not his fault, I'm sure riot made some one to OP or he had a "troll" teammate, or no one followed his initiate. Some thing awful like that, that only happens to poor you, I feel for you. Completely out of your control, damn riot!
Oi. guy obviously had a rough time, calling him out on it really doesn't help. Yeah he shouldn't of broken his stuff and yeah he can be abrasive and somewhat complaint laden but mocking and sarcasm to the guy doesn't really make you all that much better in my mind.
I don't mean to pick on you personally but if you want folks to be better people, be better yourself yo.
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lol the funny thing is that i wasn't being serious in my first comment, like I know it's not riot's fault that i broke my shit xd. I have anger issues when it comes to games, it's been like this for years and years. People just love to hate on me though, even when i was being pretty self deprecating.
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On March 04 2014 06:41 IMoperator wrote:
People just love to hate on me though,
We all drew names out of a hat and yours was the last one left. There are very good reasons people around here dont like you. (and all the others)
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Baa?21245 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:41 IMoperator wrote:
lol the funny thing is that i wasn't being serious in my first comment, like I know it's not riot's fault that i broke my shit xd. I have anger issues when it comes to games, it's been like this for years and years. People just love to hate on me though, even when i was being pretty self deprecating.
I mean you're a shit poster but everyone else over the past two pages have acted like circlejerking bandwagoners so they're not much better.
TL LOL GD is cancer.
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On March 04 2014 07:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:41 IMoperator wrote:
lol the funny thing is that i wasn't being serious in my first comment, like I know it's not riot's fault that i broke my shit xd. I have anger issues when it comes to games, it's been like this for years and years. People just love to hate on me though, even when i was being pretty self deprecating. I mean you're a shit poster but everyone else over the past two pages have acted like circlejerking bandwagoners so they're not much better. TL LOL GD is cancer.
I responded first, so at worst I am the circlejerkee.
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Not really a fan of Olaf jungle in nonpremade game, Lulu is popular but unless you coordinate its hard to use her wimsy. Sivir Olaf is still god like though.
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On March 04 2014 06:30 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 06:28 wei2coolman wrote:On March 04 2014 06:27 Gahlo wrote:On March 04 2014 06:21 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TL;IA aka Too Long It's Alaric] +Yeah man, totally the game's fault!
Damn, Hexakill down means it's gonna be harder to get the Garen games going.
After mentioning Olaf as one of the good current junglers right next to Wukong, it made me think, seeing how I've been unable to do well with him in soloQ from top, despite being matched against players theorically worse than me (post-placement and such) and felt like he had become really weak. Not that Riot necessarily wanted to nerf him with the rework (I don't think so), but the circumstances did it for them anyway:
- having less (arguably nowhere near enough) damage when built full tank means he has to get an offensive item, which skews his timings a lot
- resistances being crushed in favour of HP reversed the tendencies and made itemising against him easier, while nerfing his own laning against magic damage champs
- Q slow nerfs make his laning in general really awkward against anything that doesn't need to melee you to harass/fight you, and he gets oom (and thus powerless) even more easily against such opponents
- the meta enforces the "top lane island" with laners joining the rest of the team even later than usual. Because Olaf peaks in the midgame and is actually quite weak lategame (for the same reason that Caitlyn is strong, both of them in spite of their numbers), this, combined with the first point (meaning his midgame peak will be weaker than previously since he won't be able to have damage + both kinds of resistances at that point), makes him usually unable to exploit his peak, and he's close to be on the decline when he finally joins
- CDR itemisation got hit hard too, with FH, SV, Shurelya's nerfs or disappearance, while Olaf relies very heavily on it for both damage and stickiness
On the other hand, in the jungle:
- he gets access to more CDR itemisation thanks to the free 10% for the jungle item
- he can get his levels and some farm way more easily than top where his mana issues and troubles forcing trade (or fighting shovers) give him losing match-ups against most popular opponents
- through objective control and ganks he gets to fight way earlier than from top lane, making better use of his power spikes
- he puts less strain on his team since they can use a top laner who performs better than him, and will use the additional farm better, especially if it goes lategame (like Shyvana)
- lack of mana issues from the jungle thanks to the Butcher passive and big monsters' relics lets him use said mana in ganks instead, without running oom in 2 chases through a long lane
Of course pro play also has the advantage of being able to incorporate him in team comps that'll cover up his weaknesses and provide him with the initiation/mobility he needs to function (especially past midgame). I feel Olaf is massively underrated in general right now. So many people refused to pick him up after the rework because he wasn't as mindnumbingly op as before. It's like, what did you expect? He saw some play a couple weeks ago, and he still sees play from jungle occasionally. He's pretty niche, and requires sivir to be used to his full effectiveness. If only there was a way to fit Ghostblade into his itemization...
There isn't? At least for pros. And players that aren't stomping in soloq.
IMO Olaf's rework turned him into arguably the hardest champion in the game to play effectively, if he doesn't have a perfect team and teamcomp surrounding him. Which is really not what you want out of a toplaner or jungler. He needs a speedboost at all times, because his kit is basically autoattacks and a skillshot slow. He needs to build almost pure tank because when he is ulting, (the only time he can do damage, because he doesn't have a gapcloser + aoe damage like mundo, shyv, renekton, or burst and utility like lee sin and elise, he loses all his defensive steroids. On top of that, knowing when to ult is almost impossible. Montecristo complains a lot in OGN about Nunu picks not being used properly, but Olaf is used just as poorly, if not worse, and sometimes just carries it through because he does have really strong objective control and single target DPS (not to mention Bengi plays him a lot, that does wonders for a champion's win rate).
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On March 04 2014 07:13 Eppa! wrote:
Not really a fan of Olaf jungle in nonpremade game, Lulu is popular but unless you coordinate its hard to use her wimsy. Sivir Olaf is still god like though.
I don't think co-ordinating with lulu's whimsy is that hard, maybe early on but soon it'll be generous that even if your reaction is slightly delayed you'll probably have already hit your target as olaf.
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Hexakill was antifun for me the only time I tried it. I was mid lane solo against a single opponent, and they had two junglers.... so the entire laning phase I was playing scared like shit.
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It's not that Olaf is that bad; as I said I don't think Smash wanted to nerf him, and when you look at his numbers he's still quite the monster, with +30 armour/MR (or +80 AD, you gotta be Draven to beat that in a roundabout way), a potentially high-uptime 80% AS, 21% lifesteal, and scaling increased healing buff, and he also gets some more bonus AS from his passive. On top of that he has extremely good base AS, very high base HP (16-17th, about only 5-6 ahead of him are playing competitively atm). Admittedly, his armour goes from decent to shit.
Problem is, he has to stick to people to deal that damage, with autos, when his only mobility is a... lack of immobility, during his ult.
Which means that he gets kited to hell and back once his ult is down. With his damage nerfed, he lacks burst (can't rely on him as much as on Shyvana/Renekton/etc. or even Irelia) so quick fights aren't his forte, and neither are long ones because they outlast is ult and he becomes as sad as an oom Nasus.
He didn't fit the assassin meta (esp. with his lack of peeling/cc), he doesn't fit the current tanky meta either because fights last too long and mobility is too rampant (sure he likes Lulu and Sivir on his team, but he hates them and Nidalee and Sona and... on the enemy team), as a top laner.
His laning is much weaker because Undertow's slow has been nerfed (to hit his jungling but there're byproducts) and he has to chain something like 3+ axes if he hopes to catch up and use E + some autos. That's a lot more mana used compared to only needing 2 (a bit less than 50% if you factor the odd W's cost in) and his pool has been nerfed when he was changed.
He also has to burn axes (or W to tank the wave) if you push him in, and he doesn't roam well. Not being able to dominate the laning phase like he used too hurts him a lot because apart from a team grouping early that's the only thing he can do.
And if the team groups early he'll either lack his offensive item or his first defensive one anyway, so his impact is gonna be lower.
TL;DR: Olaf gets fucked because he can't bully in lane anymore, cc/mobility make his late game quite pathetic and the meta isn't friendly to his items/levels timings, so even if he's not bad as a whole he's not strong either coming from lane.
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i just think it takes more effort than its worth to make an auto-attack reliant melee champ with no gap closer work in a game, even if the numbers do look impressive.
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Why are you surprised? Being good at the game and being good at coming up with model-optimised builds from your armchair wikipedia math are totally different things.
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On March 04 2014 07:36 Sufficiency wrote:
Hexakill was antifun for me the only time I tried it. I was mid lane solo against a single opponent, and they had two junglers.... so the entire laning phase I was playing scared like shit.
I played lots of hexakill at (estimating) low-mid gold MMR
it was fun to me, because it was a chaotic killfest, and I also got to run all sorts of random duo shit and got away with it. Quinn/Teemo toplane? Karthus/Lux midlane? Renekton/Lee Sin botlane? Sure why the fuck not
usual arrangement was 2/1/2 with 1 jungler, although yeah sometimes 2x jungler happens, sometimes 2/2/2 or 1/2/2 happens and two times, some assholes went 1/1/3
when I played midlane vs 2x jungler it eventually got boring. Over the 20ish games I played mid, I was never visited by 2x jungler. what normally happened with 2x jungler was that both would go to either toplane or botlane (help out the guy in the 2v1 and more kills I guess). Said lane would draw more people from the other team to help out, which makes the 2x junglers visit more to help out, which converts the lane into an absolute bloodbath.
Hope they bring it back
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You had to play a lot of Hexakill for your MMR to matter since it was a fresh queue.
Everyone I've talked to about it really supported a 2nd support mid or top over a 2nd jungler.
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Welp. First loss as Garen. Took a level 10 and a level 20 on the team vs a Plat V AP Lulu premade with Galio, Wukong and Yasuo to lose. 10-1, good run.
I'm still annoyed because I get 174 exp for a 35 minutes victory but only 129 for a 47 minutes loss, Riot pls. T_T
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EPT
