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On March 15 2014 06:15 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 06:06 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 15 2014 05:55 Alaric wrote:
Then again PX's response to "you're using your cc/defensive ability to farm, having to burn it every wave, and it doesn't occur to you that're begging the jungler to camp you" is "but Pantheon can't engage from range before 6!"
He can.
Even if he couldn't, he's got Flash.
And even then, he can walk from behind (coming from wraiths).
And even then, he's strong enough to tower dive even early on.
And he ignores every other jungler because the other guy didn't mention them, so they must not exist, right? no. that was not my response. my response was if you are being camped thats probably a good thing given how your jungler than has free reign to terrorize anywhere. and you KNOW you are being camped, unless you aren't buying wards but thats a non build order related mistake. there are situations where you want to max W. like against champions whose entire MO is wave clear in an instant and then roam or mass farm like Morde/Morgana/TF/diana, but those aren't super popular or even good right now, even gragas has more inter-lane interaction. Using your CC to farm isn't a big deal when its on a 10 second CD by at level 5. for the same reason that using red cards to farm melee minions wasn't a major detriment to TF in his heyday. the cooldown was short enough it wasn't a problem. <snipped hypothetical scenario> Let's not spread misinformation here, and let's especially not theorycraft scenarios based on that misinformation. At level 5 E-max has a 14 second cooldown. Even at rank 5 it has a 12 second CD.
yeah after masteries runes and items you should have 20% cdr and the spell goes on CD right after you fire before it hits, which is 3/4 of a second, so by the time you do everything you should have around 10.5 seconds. i just rounded down because i didn't want to type fractions for hours. admittedly thats unfair, but I also granted a 3 less cd to rift in any mathing as well.
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well you need to include the items and runes/masteries in your example here. At level 9 a 10 second cooldown seems plausible when E is rank 5, but earlier than that and there's no way no how you're getting it unless you have CDR runes, masteries, rush codex before chalice, *and* get a blue.
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On March 15 2014 06:24 phyvo wrote:
well you need to include the items and runes/masteries in your example here. At level 9 a 10 second cooldown seems plausible when E is rank 5, but earlier than that and there's no way no how you're getting it unless you have CDR runes, masteries, rush codex before chalice, *and* get a blue.
14- 20% is 11.6 with the .75 second travel time its like 10.6ish from the point in which you see me casting by E to when its up again. which is your reacting window. i tend to do 9/0/21 when i play nowadays but you can still hit 20% with codex first. and 21 in offense or even 9/21/0 if you want to be tankier with velkoz which is still effective.
but a half of a second doesn't dismiss the whole, maxing W makes you nothing but a wave clear bot in lane while maxing E lets you do everything 95% as well waveclear wise, and then being actually useful outside of waveclear in every other situation.
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Im too drunk to get involved but..
#PXISBACK
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On March 15 2014 06:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Im too drunk to get involved but..
#PXISBACK
i only play the game enough to get IP for the next champion and then to test the new champ, then i stop playing again.
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Your reaction starts the instant you see E, not when it lands, and that takes .25 seconds for a typical person. Reaction time is moot anyways because you're both reacting against each other (you have to react to him coming out of fog of war just as he reacts to E on CD).
I'm not arguing for anything right now except non-sloppy theorycraft that states the facts and doesn't pad numbers to support its own view. Though theorycrafting a gank is pretty much impossible anyways even if you nail down the midlane+jungle combo you're facing there are simply too many variables. LoL in general is extremely theorycraft resistant except when you ask very specific numbers-heavy questions or something is just so ridiculously OP that it decides to show up in the numbers.
That said, back to waveclear, since you're running a CDR setup you also have to take into account that an AP setup with max W will also have a waveclear advantage from that (maybe they only need 1xW + Q to match you, for instance). After you math it out it may still not matter, but it's not proper theorycraft unless you take every detail that's feasibly possible into account, and something like running 9/0/21 instead of 21/0/9 with different runes definitely *could* be a very important detail.
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On March 15 2014 06:37 phyvo wrote:
Your reaction starts the instant you see E, not when it lands, and that takes .25 seconds for a typical person. Reaction time is moot anyways because you're both reacting against each other (you have to react to him coming out of fog of war just as he reacts to E on CD).
I'm not arguing for anything right now except non-sloppy theorycraft that states the facts and doesn't pad numbers to support its own view. Though theorycrafting a gank is pretty much impossible anyways even if you nail down the midlane+jungle combo you're facing there are simply too many variables. LoL in general is extremely theorycraft resistant except when you ask very specific numbers-heavy questions or something is just so ridiculously OP that it decides to show up in the numbers.
eh i was lazy sue me.  but its seriously a non issue unless you are blatantly out of position or don't ward.
and the only way vel koz does enough to clear the backfield with 1 W at level 5 assuming BASE hp of caster minions is is you have 190+ AP. you rely on that passive. its why the masteries/runes don't change waveclear for velkoz outside of CDR
i can't think of a way to do that outside of starting no items and rushing NLR with 21/0/9 and all flat AP runes. even then i think you fall short.
his AP scaling on individual spells is very poor though overall its acceptable though not assassin-y high.
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On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine.
It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself.
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On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself.
The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage.
Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again.
Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging.
Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else.
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On March 15 2014 04:05 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 02:03 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 01:37 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 01:35 arb wrote:On March 15 2014 01:15 VayneAuthority wrote:
MR itemization in this game has been garbage since the beginning of time, they can't seem to figure that one out Wasnt that bad when FoN was in the game tbh. Now it needs apretty big overhaul i feel It was fine after the changes they made mid S3. The people had to get all uppity about champion synergy. I remember when athenes/chalice was actually considered a MR item instead of a god item. Uh, Athene's was a god item on release, then it became an ubergod item cause people were dumbfucks and didn't buy it, so Riot buffed it. 90AP Athenes, never forget.
Athenes being god has little to do with its stats and everything to do with the blue buff Nerf and mastery changes which make getting buff duration a less obvious choice. Combined with some junglers taking blue so they can ult gank more often.
The changes from ranged to super tanky tops also helped because burst was less important compared to sustain and sustained damage(cdr). There were also straight nerfs to the popular burst/assassin mages that were around before the Athens Nerf. Also nerfs to Dorans ring. Iirc. These meta changes also accentuated siege champions and so sustain for clear became more important.
Athenes at +10 AP wasn't a good item at the time it had the +10 AP.
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On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else.
That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta.
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On March 15 2014 06:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Im too drunk to get involved but..
#PXISBACK
And suddenly, Sarah Bryant is nowhere to be seen...
Interesting how that works.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I MISSED U PX.
SARAHBRYANT GAVE ME CANCER
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On March 15 2014 07:41 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else. That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta.
When the game turns into which team can pop the other team's BV's easier, theres a problem. No item should be that strong.
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On March 15 2014 07:38 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 04:05 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 02:03 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 01:37 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 01:35 arb wrote:On March 15 2014 01:15 VayneAuthority wrote:
MR itemization in this game has been garbage since the beginning of time, they can't seem to figure that one out Wasnt that bad when FoN was in the game tbh. Now it needs apretty big overhaul i feel It was fine after the changes they made mid S3. The people had to get all uppity about champion synergy. I remember when athenes/chalice was actually considered a MR item instead of a god item. Uh, Athene's was a god item on release, then it became an ubergod item cause people were dumbfucks and didn't buy it, so Riot buffed it. 90AP Athenes, never forget. Athenes being god has little to do with its stats and everything to do with the blue buff Nerf and mastery changes which make getting buff duration a less obvious choice. Combined with some junglers taking blue so they can ult gank more often. The changes from ranged to super tanky tops also helped because burst was less important compared to sustain and sustained damage(cdr). There were also straight nerfs to the popular burst/assassin mages that were around before the Athens Nerf. Also nerfs to Dorans ring. Iirc. These meta changes also accentuated siege champions and so sustain for clear became more important. Athenes at +10 AP wasn't a good item at the time it had the +10 AP.
Blue buff's mana regen was nerfed before Athene's came out. Athenes saw play before the CDR nerf on blue, which was only November of last year. The reason it wasn't as wide spread is because we had a lot more physical damage mids like pre-nerf Zed forcing early Armguard/Tear instead on heavy mana users. Grail is a lot like Triforce where it has a much larger impact as a first item as opposed to a later item, assuming it isn't put in a position where it's in the "This is the 1 offensive item I need for my damage to remain relevant."
The very state of midlane itself was enough to cause it to not be bought. That didn't make it a bad item.
On March 15 2014 08:01 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 07:41 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else. That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta. When the game turns into which team can pop the other team's BV's easier, theres a problem. No item should be that strong.
We should nerf Zhonya's and GA while we're at it.
Or, he's a better idea. Play with some AOE.
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On March 15 2014 08:00 Roffles wrote:
I MISSED U PX.
SARAHBRYANT GAVE ME CANCER
Oh ruffles, you've always been at my side.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 15 2014 08:08 Gahlo wrote:
Or, he's a better idea. Play with some AOE.
buff TF riot pls
EDIT because someone isn't going to get it: TF's ult pops spell shields.
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On March 15 2014 08:01 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 07:41 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else. That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta. When the game turns into which team can pop the other team's BV's easier, theres a problem. No item should be that strong.
Perhaps people should play sustained dps champions...
On March 15 2014 08:08 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 07:38 Goumindong wrote:On March 15 2014 04:05 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 02:03 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 01:37 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 01:35 arb wrote:On March 15 2014 01:15 VayneAuthority wrote:
MR itemization in this game has been garbage since the beginning of time, they can't seem to figure that one out Wasnt that bad when FoN was in the game tbh. Now it needs apretty big overhaul i feel It was fine after the changes they made mid S3. The people had to get all uppity about champion synergy. I remember when athenes/chalice was actually considered a MR item instead of a god item. Uh, Athene's was a god item on release, then it became an ubergod item cause people were dumbfucks and didn't buy it, so Riot buffed it. 90AP Athenes, never forget. Athenes being god has little to do with its stats and everything to do with the blue buff Nerf and mastery changes which make getting buff duration a less obvious choice. Combined with some junglers taking blue so they can ult gank more often. The changes from ranged to super tanky tops also helped because burst was less important compared to sustain and sustained damage(cdr). There were also straight nerfs to the popular burst/assassin mages that were around before the Athens Nerf. Also nerfs to Dorans ring. Iirc. These meta changes also accentuated siege champions and so sustain for clear became more important. Athenes at +10 AP wasn't a good item at the time it had the +10 AP. Blue buff's mana regen was nerfed before Athene's came out. Athenes saw play before the CDR nerf on blue, which was only November of last year. The reason it wasn't as wide spread is because we had a lot more physical damage mids like pre-nerf Zed forcing early Armguard/Tear instead on heavy mana users. Grail is a lot like Triforce where it has a much larger impact as a first item as opposed to a later item, assuming it isn't put in a position where it's in the "This is the 1 offensive item I need for my damage to remain relevant." The very state of midlane itself was enough to cause it to not be bought. That didn't make it a bad item. Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 08:01 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 07:41 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else. That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta. When the game turns into which team can pop the other team's BV's easier, theres a problem. No item should be that strong. We should nerf Zhonya's and GA while we're at it. Or, he's a better idea. Play with some AOE.
Thats good too.
I mean, the real question is, if Banshees is so "strong" or "op" why aren't people flocking to play Karthus, Anivia, Cassio, Rumble, Kennen, Singed, Ryze, etc? They all chuckle at BV compared to Leblanc, Gragas, Nidalee, etc. And its even deeper because most popular support picks like Thresh, Leona, Annie, (and Elise/Pantheon the master junglers) also are heavily reliant on single spells.
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Riot_League_Championship_Series/North_America/2014_Season/Statistics/Spring_Round_Robin/Pick_and_Ban_Stats
If you got here, you really have Toplaners who dont really care, then have to go all the way down to Kayle and Ziggs to find champions that deal with BV well.
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On March 15 2014 08:21 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 08:01 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 07:41 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else. That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta. When the game turns into which team can pop the other team's BV's easier, theres a problem. No item should be that strong. Perhaps people should play sustained dps champions... Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 08:08 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 07:38 Goumindong wrote:On March 15 2014 04:05 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 02:03 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 01:37 Gahlo wrote:On March 15 2014 01:35 arb wrote:On March 15 2014 01:15 VayneAuthority wrote:
MR itemization in this game has been garbage since the beginning of time, they can't seem to figure that one out Wasnt that bad when FoN was in the game tbh. Now it needs apretty big overhaul i feel It was fine after the changes they made mid S3. The people had to get all uppity about champion synergy. I remember when athenes/chalice was actually considered a MR item instead of a god item. Uh, Athene's was a god item on release, then it became an ubergod item cause people were dumbfucks and didn't buy it, so Riot buffed it. 90AP Athenes, never forget. Athenes being god has little to do with its stats and everything to do with the blue buff Nerf and mastery changes which make getting buff duration a less obvious choice. Combined with some junglers taking blue so they can ult gank more often. The changes from ranged to super tanky tops also helped because burst was less important compared to sustain and sustained damage(cdr). There were also straight nerfs to the popular burst/assassin mages that were around before the Athens Nerf. Also nerfs to Dorans ring. Iirc. These meta changes also accentuated siege champions and so sustain for clear became more important. Athenes at +10 AP wasn't a good item at the time it had the +10 AP. Blue buff's mana regen was nerfed before Athene's came out. Athenes saw play before the CDR nerf on blue, which was only November of last year. The reason it wasn't as wide spread is because we had a lot more physical damage mids like pre-nerf Zed forcing early Armguard/Tear instead on heavy mana users. Grail is a lot like Triforce where it has a much larger impact as a first item as opposed to a later item, assuming it isn't put in a position where it's in the "This is the 1 offensive item I need for my damage to remain relevant." The very state of midlane itself was enough to cause it to not be bought. That didn't make it a bad item. On March 15 2014 08:01 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 07:41 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 07:34 dae wrote:On March 15 2014 06:51 cLutZ wrote:On March 15 2014 04:20 TheYango wrote:
The original BVeil passive was fine. It really doesn't matter what the passive is. The purpose of the current BV passive, or any passive that is Banshees-Veil-Like is to have a mid-lategame itemization option that punishes mages that rely on 1-2 damage spells or 1-2 CC spells (often combined like Gragas or Annie). BV is supposed to make those champions weaker no matter the changes to the passive. The fact that it does, and is being bought a lot to do that is a commentary on that type of champion rather than the item itself. The reason why everyone gets a BV lategame has not much to do with countering 1 champion, its to make it almost impossible to catch you in an engage. Right now its like, pop the bvs, then try to get an engage in the 20 seconds they are down, if you fail try again. Without BV in the game you'd see a lot less sustained boring sieges without either team engaging. Honestly BV should only block the spells damage and nothing else. That is just an indication that picks are also too strong in the meta. When the game turns into which team can pop the other team's BV's easier, theres a problem. No item should be that strong. We should nerf Zhonya's and GA while we're at it. Or, he's a better idea. Play with some AOE. Thats good too. I mean, the real question is, if Banshees is so "strong" or "op" why aren't people flocking to play Karthus, Anivia, Cassio, Rumble, Kennen, Singed, Ryze, etc? They all chuckle at BV compared to Leblanc, Gragas, Nidalee, etc. And its even deeper because most popular support picks like Thresh, Leona, Annie, (and Elise/Pantheon the master junglers) also are heavily reliant on single spells. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Riot_League_Championship_Series/North_America/2014_Season/Statistics/Spring_Round_Robin/Pick_and_Ban_StatsIf you got here, you really have Toplaners who dont really care, then have to go all the way down to Kayle and Ziggs to find champions that deal with BV well.
It's still too early to say. I don't remember the picks changing too much since the SV=>BV shift, which was by in large due to SV nerfs. It just happens to be in a place where it's good against the strong mids for the previous state of the game. Throwing hands in the air and going "It's too good" right now is pretty alarmist and only feeds into the "If something is ever good it should be nerfed" mindset.
Lb, Gragas, and Nid all rush Athene's currently. Some because of how they work in general, or in the case of Lb, because it fits when going against BV is a relevant situation. All of them are free enough to toss out a spell multiple times before a BV would reactivate.
Karthus: Probably has more matchup issues in general holding him back, most notably + Show Spoiler [IEM spoilers] +how badly Alex Ich for dumptered by Dinter's Ziggs today.
Anivia: It's been so long since she's been good, and even when she was I don't remember more than a handful outside of Froggen playing her.
Cassio: I feel she falls under the "If you miss your skillshots you don't do anything" terror that causes quite a few champions to drop from competitive play(aka Ahri.)
Rumble: Can't handle heavy tank trend in general, even before BV was a relevant consideration.
Kennen: I hear a lot of talk about the possibility of him seeing play due to the Dshield nerf, which previously killed his laning.
Singed: Seems to fall under the same blanket as Rumble, where he can't handle Cowl from everything I've read.
Ryze: Is starting to see some play again due to tear buffs + personal buffs/partial nerf reverts form the last time he was overbearing in competitive play.
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Half of those squishy non mobile mid laners probably don't see a lot of play because of the current jungler picks as well.
I'm in the "BV is just popular because it counters the current crop of AP damage dealers". I mean, it's the go to item to live vs LeBlanc. I see no problem with it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111228015221/simpsons/images/6/61/Ruffles.gif)
