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On February 15 2014 00:46 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 00:40 Ketara wrote:On February 15 2014 00:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Why wouldn't you just play like Shyvanna or Renekton? Maybe Shyvanna is better because BotRK is more common on her than croc. I've been playing Renekton vs him but it seems like he just gets under tower and can get every CS easily. Croc has issues preventing people from farming under tower because he takes tower hits when he tries to trade. Usually you can outtrade the one tower hit if you plan it right but it's not really ideal and he gets the CS anyway. It's really a boring lane and fairly dumb. I guess I should just play Nasus or Shyvana and AFK farm too. Let's be real here. Top lane has been a boring and fairly dumb lane for a while now. :/
I agree so much! they take the kind of interesting top champions (Riven, Jayce, etc.) and nerf them hard, and then take the boring tanks (Mundo, Shyv) and slap them on the wrist.
IMO it is all a product of Renekton being too strong still against both ranged and melee champs and people only being able to pick safe tanks before/against him. I am surprised he hasn't seen nerfs despite being a popular pick forever now.
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Doesn't riven do pretty well vs mundo?
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Baa?21244 Posts
Any "interesting" "top" laner just becomes a ridiculously overpowered mid laner.
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On February 15 2014 01:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Any "interesting" "top" laner just becomes a ridiculously overpowered mid laner.
Unfortunate truth.
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yeah riot realized they done goofed when it wasnt just a champion like jayce who shits on every melee he just shits on everyone
top lane is just the canary in the mineshaft if champs who can 1v2 can get destroyed by a single champ then shits going wrong
the bigger issue is that right now in competitive people play only 2 types of champs
1: champ that builds only damage
2: champ that builds only tank
theres almost no hybrid play and im not sure if its optimal but this results from the playstyle of focus whoever is in front unless you land a cc on a squishy and then jump him
it might be possible that people arent exploring more dive heavy play where the bruisers need damage to 1v1 if the enemy tanks don't play purely peel roles themselves but right now play is very unified and pure tanks and pure damage isn't that interesting compared to more hybrid tank/damage champs who rely a lot on their own power to kill people
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Corollary: champs who can't deal damage while building full tank can go stuf themselves in a sewer. See: Nautilus.
T_T
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nautilus i think suffers more from lack of dueling power early and mid game more than anything, I think teams would be pretty happy to have naut lategames still
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Well Riven kind of has that (in the sense that her offense also powers her defensive spell in her shied). It's not the same as what you're saying, but the thing with hybrid builds is that you aren't going to be nearly as tanky/damaging as the guy that built purely down 1 path.
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riven doesnt count because she builds pure damage and gets more health for free because she's a melee and needi ts.
hybrid builds arent nearly as tanky/damaging no fucking shit sherlock, but the idea is hybrid builds are superior at 1v1ing and if you're a melee you usually have almost enough base damage to kill squishies but you need eonugh tankiness that "focusing you" isn't worth it however right now it is worth it to just focus anyone who's in front
which is why shyv and mundo are so popular becuase people focus them even though they are super tanky. I guess people just need to pick better engage if they want to force people to focus priority targets
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On February 15 2014 01:21 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah riot realized they done goofed when it wasnt just a champion like jayce who shits on every melee he just shits on everyone
top lane is just the canary in the mineshaft if champs who can 1v2 can get destroyed by a single champ then shits going wrong
the bigger issue is that right now in competitive people play only 2 types of champs
1: champ that builds only damage
2: champ that builds only tank
theres almost no hybrid play and im not sure if its optimal but this results from the playstyle of focus whoever is in front unless you land a cc on a squishy and then jump him
it might be possible that people arent exploring more dive heavy play where the bruisers need damage to 1v1 if the enemy tanks don't play purely peel roles themselves but right now play is very unified and pure tanks and pure damage isn't that interesting compared to more hybrid tank/damage champs who rely a lot on their own power to kill people
note that i'm assuming 'hybrid play' to include building a single damage-only item, so a bortk -> full tank build would be considered hybrid. damage items with tanky components (namely zhonyas), however, wouldn't count towards a hybrid build, and obviously nor does guardian angel
competitive play 'right now', compared to...i guess implicitly all other points of competitive play, is as you describe mostly because of the prevalence of full tank top laners. so the canary in the mineshaft is more like the gorilla in the room with regards to 'the bigger issue'. of the 5 roles, only 2 can be expected to pursue 'hybrid play' as the norm - top and jungle. the occasional hybrid mid champ (ryze, galio) comes up every so often, but that's the exception rather than norm in any meta, and supports have never built real items until this season
if anything, competitive junglers were even more tank-only in season 3, with golem -> mobi -> locket -> randuins being the standard build for any jungler. evelynn was an exception, but she's still played, and the new botrk -> tank build is more hybrid than the dedicated damage + zhonyas of the past. now we have pantheon and wukong also seeing jungle play thanks to the spirit stone family changes. whether the enduringly popular vi, elise, and lee can build damage in the current game is up for debate, but there's only room for improvement here compared to season 3 build variety.
so the only lane where the hybrid play argument holds water is top lane, and it's definitely true in this case. with the exceptions off the top of my head of shyvana (botrk v mundo), trundle, and the korean riven build of bloodthirster -> spirit visage (also playable mid), top lane build diversity is very stale and tanky. some of what made pure tanks so successful was just nerfed, though, so hopefully things will begin to change
so again, top lane is the bigger issue, not just a symptom.
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Since 4.2 I've been doing badly as mundo against many strong duelers, such as Lee Sin, Jarvan, Rango, Shyvana, Jax... I pretty much stopped playing him, he's not the strongest early game champ and I feel like I have so much less impact later than in 4.1
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On February 15 2014 01:48 Kyrie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 01:21 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah riot realized they done goofed when it wasnt just a champion like jayce who shits on every melee he just shits on everyone
top lane is just the canary in the mineshaft if champs who can 1v2 can get destroyed by a single champ then shits going wrong
the bigger issue is that right now in competitive people play only 2 types of champs
1: champ that builds only damage
2: champ that builds only tank
theres almost no hybrid play and im not sure if its optimal but this results from the playstyle of focus whoever is in front unless you land a cc on a squishy and then jump him
it might be possible that people arent exploring more dive heavy play where the bruisers need damage to 1v1 if the enemy tanks don't play purely peel roles themselves but right now play is very unified and pure tanks and pure damage isn't that interesting compared to more hybrid tank/damage champs who rely a lot on their own power to kill people note that i'm assuming 'hybrid play' to include building a single damage-only item, so a bortk -> full tank build would be considered hybrid. damage items with tanky components (namely zhonyas), however, wouldn't count towards a hybrid build, and obviously nor does guardian angel competitive play 'right now', compared to...i guess implicitly all other points of competitive play, is as you describe mostly because of the prevalence of full tank top laners. so the canary in the mineshaft is more like the gorilla in the room with regards to 'the bigger issue'. of the 5 roles, only 2 can be expected to pursue 'hybrid play' as the norm - top and jungle. the occasional hybrid mid champ (ryze, galio) comes up every so often, but that's the exception rather than norm in any meta, and supports have never built real items until this season if anything, competitive junglers were even more tank-only in season 3, with golem -> mobi -> locket -> randuins being the standard build for any jungler. evelynn was an exception, but she's still played, and the new botrk -> tank build is more hybrid than the dedicated damage + zhonyas of the past. now we have pantheon and wukong also seeing jungle play thanks to the spirit stone family changes. whether the enduringly popular vi, elise, and lee can build damage in the current game is up for debate, but there's only room for improvement here compared to season 3 build variety. so the only lane where the hybrid play argument holds water is top lane, and it's definitely true in this case. with the exceptions off the top of my head of shyvana (botrk v mundo), trundle, and the korean riven build of bloodthirster -> spirit visage (also playable mid), top lane build diversity is very stale and tanky. some of what made pure tanks so successful was just nerfed, though, so hopefully things will begin to change so again, top lane is the bigger issue, not just a symptom.
I mean yeah, right now and definitely in the past
i mean there have been eras of kennen/vlad top and not a full tank, the thing is teams need either super good poke of initiate, and poke comps are limited so mostly you need tanks in top and jungle just for fulfill that.
its not that people think the top lane tank champs are OP (i mean some of that are and have been but not all of them) its just that there is no alternative but picking a tank because an all squishy comp gets destroyed by an kind of aoe with good engage
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On February 15 2014 01:48 Kyrie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 01:21 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah riot realized they done goofed when it wasnt just a champion like jayce who shits on every melee he just shits on everyone
top lane is just the canary in the mineshaft if champs who can 1v2 can get destroyed by a single champ then shits going wrong
the bigger issue is that right now in competitive people play only 2 types of champs
1: champ that builds only damage
2: champ that builds only tank
theres almost no hybrid play and im not sure if its optimal but this results from the playstyle of focus whoever is in front unless you land a cc on a squishy and then jump him
it might be possible that people arent exploring more dive heavy play where the bruisers need damage to 1v1 if the enemy tanks don't play purely peel roles themselves but right now play is very unified and pure tanks and pure damage isn't that interesting compared to more hybrid tank/damage champs who rely a lot on their own power to kill people note that i'm assuming 'hybrid play' to include building a single damage-only item, so a bortk -> full tank build would be considered hybrid. damage items with tanky components (namely zhonyas), however, wouldn't count towards a hybrid build, and obviously nor does guardian angel competitive play 'right now', compared to...i guess implicitly all other points of competitive play, is as you describe mostly because of the prevalence of full tank top laners. so the canary in the mineshaft is more like the gorilla in the room with regards to 'the bigger issue'. of the 5 roles, only 2 can be expected to pursue 'hybrid play' as the norm - top and jungle. the occasional hybrid mid champ (ryze, galio) comes up every so often, but that's the exception rather than norm in any meta, and supports have never built real items until this season if anything, competitive junglers were even more tank-only in season 3, with golem -> mobi -> locket -> randuins being the standard build for any jungler. evelynn was an exception, but she's still played, and the new botrk -> tank build is more hybrid than the dedicated damage + zhonyas of the past. now we have pantheon and wukong also seeing jungle play thanks to the spirit stone family changes. whether the enduringly popular vi, elise, and lee can build damage in the current game is up for debate, but there's only room for improvement here compared to season 3 build variety. so the only lane where the hybrid play argument holds water is top lane, and it's definitely true in this case. with the exceptions off the top of my head of shyvana (botrk v mundo), trundle, and the korean riven build of bloodthirster -> spirit visage (also playable mid), top lane build diversity is very stale and tanky. some of what made pure tanks so successful was just nerfed, though, so hopefully things will begin to change so again, top lane is the bigger issue, not just a symptom.
i think you could argue that the so called top lane tank "problem" is a big part of what allows junglers to build damage
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Nautilus building full tank will be entirely ignorable, contrary to, say, Renekton/Shyvana/Elise/Mundo. That's pretty important, because even some supports will be stronger than him lategame: he won't be able to zone anyone because he's not threatening at all once his Q and R are on cooldown.
It was always the case but since Riot raped his damage because "he deals too much on the midgame" (although midgame for him is like levels 9-11, when it's 9-13 for others: the most impactful scaling on Riptide is actually its mana cost), he's not doing any damage in the late game, nor in the midgame, and his first clear is "this is my jungle now" material from a bunch of popular junglers, so the window in which his damage is relevant is really narrow unless he snowballs somehow.
It's also hard to itemise for damage on him, since there's no good AS itemisation (plus his base, MS and animations are terrible), he needs some HP/resistances to make his shield hold since Riptide and Depth Charge will only provide burst if he builds AP. You can throw a random Liandry's or Abyssal in there but that won't be enough.
As for Mundo top, people here said Jax. When I tried it I found that even with BotRK it still takes you ages to kill him and odds of their jungler or mid roaming to you in the meantime are pretty much 100%. You'd have stronger harass with triforce but you'll need BotRK at some point anyway so you'd rather rush it than have to build 2 offensive items before you've got 2 defensive ones.
I found it easy to farm at early levels but as Infected Cleaver gets stronger it's harder (he can easily outpush you by burning 1-2 ticks of W in the wave if you can't zone him from it) and his poke starts hurting, so he pushed me to tower then forced me to back before him. I probably played that wrong and too scared because I lacked experience, but I wonder if Jax can kill Mundo pre-6 or go aggressive on him.
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you can't ignore naut becaue if he hooks you and thne passives you you're going to get raped
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I think we should wait a bit and see how the perseverance nerf works out. It has only been out for a few days.
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they should move the power back to garen passive why the fuck did they nerf it
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On February 15 2014 02:23 Slayer91 wrote:
they should move the power back to garen passive why the fuck did they nerf it
Do you mean mke Perseverance work similar to Garen passive in terms of when it works?
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no i mean revert the nerf to garen passive that went in a while back for no apparent reason
unlike perseverance the mastery it has counterplay
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On February 15 2014 01:21 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah riot realized they done goofed when it wasnt just a champion like jayce who shits on every melee he just shits on everyone
top lane is just the canary in the mineshaft if champs who can 1v2 can get destroyed by a single champ then shits going wrong
the bigger issue is that right now in competitive people play only 2 types of champs
1: champ that builds only damage
2: champ that builds only tank
theres almost no hybrid play and im not sure if its optimal but this results from the playstyle of focus whoever is in front unless you land a cc on a squishy and then jump him
it might be possible that people arent exploring more dive heavy play where the bruisers need damage to 1v1 if the enemy tanks don't play purely peel roles themselves but right now play is very unified and pure tanks and pure damage isn't that interesting compared to more hybrid tank/damage champs who rely a lot on their own power to kill people
And if you have free tankiness (aka Riven) or free damage (aka Mundo) then you're super good!
Also on an unrelated note I started playing Garen on TT and he might be the most rage-inducing champ ever. Literally derp around for the first 5 minutes, feed first blood, then jungle without smite, random lane tax and respond to ganks. Literally do whatever you want and win, best champ ever.Using your ult in unnecessary situations = slapping enemy team if the face.
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EPT
