Made a Reddit thread about invisibility in LoL, was curious what TL thought (as you guys have awesome insight). Always felt LoL could use a SC2 "ripple effect" system.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1xxe1l/riot_has_stated_they_want_counterplay_for_skilled/

Gorsameth

Netherlands21682 Posts

February 14 2014 20:49 GMT

#883

On February 15 2014 05:41 Diamond wrote:
Made a Reddit thread about invisibility in LoL, was curious what TL thought (as you guys have awesome insight). Always felt LoL could use a SC2 "ripple effect" system.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1xxe1l/riot_has_stated_they_want_counterplay_for_skilled/

It works in SC2 because your attention is divided to a dozen places

It would be mostly useless in LoL because your 'almost' never going to be surprised.

It makes it that you either see it coming and avoid the gank or whatever
Or you see it coming and you know your dead because you cant avoid it anymore.

Adds nothing much over an actual champion being there instead.

Kyrie

1594 Posts

February 14 2014 20:54 GMT

#884

rippling is never going to happen in league - i would bet that it was one of the first obvious stealth design options to be thrown out the window at riot. forcing players to constantly scan the map is 'artificial' (huge weasel word, but i think it's appropriate here) difficulty that is absurdly annoying to manage while not taking very much strategic thought, the latter being the difficulty sell of wizard football. needless mechanical difficulty, especially the kind that requires apm more than any kind of planning, is not 'good' for the game

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

February 14 2014 20:54 GMT

#885

I feel like this was discussed a long time ago when Riot was discussing ways to deal with invisibility, and the Riot answer was that the difference in effectiveness based on burden of knowledge is too high.

That is, if you make detection "skill-based", then it becomes hard to balance the mechanic at different levels of play because the effectiveness of invisibility varies hugely based on the skill level of the game, more so than other existing mechanics in the game.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

February 14 2014 20:55 GMT

#886

On February 15 2014 05:54 TheYango wrote:
I feel like this was discussed a long time ago when Riot was discussing ways to deal with invisibility, and the Riot answer was that the difference in effectiveness based on burden of knowledge is too high.

That is, if you make detection "skill-based", then it becomes hard to balance the mechanic at different levels of play because the effectiveness of invisibility varies hugely based on the skill level of the game, more so than other existing mechanics in the game.

Oh I never knew it had been brought up by Riot before, oops.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

February 14 2014 20:56 GMT

#887

Most of what Riot is looking for in "skill-based counterplay" involves mechanics where the effectiveness depends both on the skill of the user and the target, so the power level of the ability is balanced across many levels of play (skillshots are an example of this). As you improve, both you and your opponent get better at using and responding to the skill, so its balanced even while depending on your skill.

The invisibility blur doesn't fall into this because it's entirely on the target whether they recognize the blur or not. It's effectiveness ONLY depends on the skill level of the target meaning the skill is progressively more powerful at low levels and progressively less powerful at high levels.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

February 14 2014 20:59 GMT

#888

It also messes hard with short duration stealth, like Talon or Wukong, because jukes and stuff are the only thing letting them escape. If you know where they're going, then there's no point anymore (kinda the same with Akali's shroud as an escape).

IamPryda

United States1186 Posts

February 14 2014 21:13 GMT

#889

I prefer anything over the days where top lane was kennen jayce rumble and old khazix and if you want to play someone else tough shit your not winning your lane

canikizu

4860 Posts

February 14 2014 21:17 GMT

#890

We won a game. Our team had Garen+Wukong+Katarina+2 feeders.
Basically #spin2win #spincity.

Carnivorous Sheep

Baa?21243 Posts

February 14 2014 21:23 GMT

#891

On February 15 2014 06:13 IamPryda wrote:
I prefer anything over the days where top lane was kennen jayce rumble and old khazix and if you want to play someone else tough shit your not winning your lane

There was never a point in time when those four heroes were strong in top lane together, with no one else.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

February 14 2014 21:25 GMT

#892

I think Riot has moved in the wrong direction with stealth, and its not really close to being healthy right now.

I think there are two kinds of Stealth: Eve + Hard stealth.

Eve is really quite difficult to balance because just from a monetary standpoint, fighting against an Eve is a gigantic burden. Almost everywhere you put a Green ward normally, you actually need a Pink (aka 50g more spent, plus now you only get 5 per team, so that exacerbates the opportunity cost of protecting a flank). On top of that, you actually need pink wards in places that you never needed wards before. That is why she is hard to balance, because when you account for the cost investment in countering Eve, its nearly the equivalent to what she would be earning during a game, and "should" be balanced by her basically being a wet noodle (which she was for a long time). The only way to really beat an Eve is to be a very accurate guesser, so that is unhealthy.

Hard stealth is slightly less hard to balance, because usually it costs 125g (or now a sweeper) to counter and secure the kill. But its still a problem to balance because the balance team needs to approximate the number of times a team will need to use a pink to secure a kill, and deduct that champion's power accordingly. The amount of times will obviously vary from game to game so its a hard thing to do, but overall not Eve hard. Its more in line with balancing out something like Arcane Shift.

chalice

United States1945 Posts

February 14 2014 21:39 GMT

#893

i just tried both of them and i think lulu jungle is probably more viable than nautilus right now.

IMoperator

4476 Posts

February 14 2014 21:50 GMT

#894

if apdo wasn't banned from pro leagues would he be on the level of faker?

Yezzus

United States2318 Posts

February 14 2014 21:57 GMT

#895

On February 15 2014 06:50 IMoperator wrote:
if apdo wasn't banned from pro leagues would he be on the level of faker?

Why is he banned?

kongoline

6318 Posts

February 14 2014 21:58 GMT

#896

On February 15 2014 06:57 Yezzus wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why is he banned?

hes known elo booster

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

February 14 2014 22:04 GMT

#897

On February 15 2014 06:58 kongoline wrote:

Show nested quote +

hes known elo booster

I can kind of imagine his efficiency at his job.

GhandiEAGLE

United States20754 Posts

February 14 2014 22:09 GMT

#898

On February 15 2014 07:04 Sufficiency wrote:

Show nested quote +

I can kind of imagine his efficiency at his job.

Hey guys there's still hope yet for Apdo

iirc it wasn't a permanent ban. Only for 1000 years or something.

oneofthem

Cayman Islands24199 Posts

February 14 2014 22:16 GMT

#899

nah he's just banned for 2 years from ogn, or 5 tourneys not including the winter one.

he's not as good as faker but really knows how to put up stats and carry in soloq. if you watch his games he plays a lot safer than faker but does a lot of good calculated ganks.

solo q wise faker doesn't play as much as apdo does and trolls a lot more(watch his first pick blitzcrank support games to get an idea lol), so you can't compare their stats directly. there are a ton of games between them up on youtube.

thing about apdo that attracts people is the unknown factor, the potential. but i don't think he's as good as ryu or ambition at mid at least right now, and potential wise short of pawn.