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On February 13 2014 08:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 08:14 anonemouse wrote:
haven't been able to see the true potential of vel'koz yet, because new account = low mmr and i get matched with really unskilled players. side note: i really didn't like heartseeker ashe's sounds, pretty loud and kind of annoying It's the PBE. Most of the players there aren't skilled.
Agreed. There was one stream I watched where I just couldn't stop facepalming. I think the most unintuitive thing will be hitting Q. You can angle it to try and get a little more range out of it (rather than spamming it directly at people as I saw most people do), when people dodge you can reactivate it to force another dodge, and sometimes when chasing (mainly in the jungle) it's actually preferable to shoot Q at an angle for a more inescapable projectile path. Everything else is actually not too crazy compared to other champions and people have no excuse for screwing it up.
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Jinx Nerfs when AD is already the weakest of the "3" carry positions? Blurg
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One thing I find really strange about this new champion is that his R does 500 / 700 / 900 (+ 60% AP) total damage. This strikes me as odd because that's a reasonable amount of base damage (considering it's channeled and over 2.5 seconds) but really low ratio.
Comparably:
Katarina's R: 400 / 575 / 750 (+ 250% AP) (+ 375% bonus AD)
Malzahar's R: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 130% AP)
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On February 13 2014 13:28 Sufficiency wrote:
One thing I find really strange about this new champion is that his R does 500 / 700 / 900 (+ 60% AP) total damage. This strikes me as odd because that's a reasonable amount of base damage (considering it's channeled and over 2.5 seconds) but really low ratio.
Comparably:
Katarina's R: 400 / 575 / 750 (+ 250% AP) (+ 375% bonus AD)
Malzahar's R: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 130% AP)
I think each tick on the ray counts as a stack towards his passive, which is a true damage dot. Every # on his spells has to take into account his passive.
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On February 13 2014 13:42 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 13:28 Sufficiency wrote:
One thing I find really strange about this new champion is that his R does 500 / 700 / 900 (+ 60% AP) total damage. This strikes me as odd because that's a reasonable amount of base damage (considering it's channeled and over 2.5 seconds) but really low ratio.
Comparably:
Katarina's R: 400 / 575 / 750 (+ 250% AP) (+ 375% bonus AD)
Malzahar's R: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 130% AP) I think each tick on the ray counts as a stack towards his passive, which is a true damage dot. Every # on his spells has to take into account his passive.
It says on the wiki that his R applies a stack every HALF a second, and his passive's damage is instant.... I think one should easily be able to add in at least one passive proc through R..... that's even MORE base damage.
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On February 13 2014 14:16 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 13:42 Gahlo wrote:On February 13 2014 13:28 Sufficiency wrote:
One thing I find really strange about this new champion is that his R does 500 / 700 / 900 (+ 60% AP) total damage. This strikes me as odd because that's a reasonable amount of base damage (considering it's channeled and over 2.5 seconds) but really low ratio.
Comparably:
Katarina's R: 400 / 575 / 750 (+ 250% AP) (+ 375% bonus AD)
Malzahar's R: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 130% AP) I think each tick on the ray counts as a stack towards his passive, which is a true damage dot. Every # on his spells has to take into account his passive. It says on the wiki that his R applies a stack every HALF a second, and his passive's damage is instant.... I think one should easily be able to add in at least one passive proc through R..... that's even MORE base damage.
Derp. I haven't put too much attention on him. Keep in mind that the beam supposedly move slowly, so it's trying to make up for not hitting with all 5 ticks. Also, your use of "reasonable" through me off.
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I just wanted to lay out some of my thoughts on the item balance as added to the PBE today
Coin route
Ancient Coin
3 HP/5 --> 0 HP/5
Favor: Now also heals you for 5 health whenever a nearby enemy minion that you did not kill dies
Nomad's Medallion
11 MP/5 --> 10 MP/5
10 HP/5 --> 5 HP/5
2 Gp/10 Unchanged
Favor: Now also heals you for 5 health whenever a nearby enemy minion that you did not kill dies.
Talisman of Ascension
Stats Unchanged
Favor: Now also heals you for 5 health whenever a nearby enemy minion that you did not kill dies.
I find it interesting that they buff this item at all, it is currently the gold item du'jour albeit almost exclusively because of the final item. When I first read it I thought it was perhaps to counter act Doran's but the Doran's nerfs are still in on this patch so it really seems like a poor choice, especially in relation how it devalues Relic shield even further, like the reason to take shield in lane right now is for lane strength and a bit more gold later and this strips the additional lane strength down to almost nothing.
AP route
Spellthief's Edge
10 Ability Power --> 0 Ability Power
3 MP/5 Unchanged
2 GP/10 Unchanged
Tribute:
Your spells and attacks deal 10 additional damage to champions and towers and generate 4 gold.
This can happen up to 3 times every 30 seconds.
Tribute is disabled for 12 seconds if you kill a minion.
Frostfang
20 Ability Power --> 0 Ability Power
7 MP/5 Unchanged
4 GP/10 Unchanged
Tribute:
Your spells and attacks deal 15 additional damage to champions and towers and generate 8 gold.
This can happen up to 3 times every 30 seconds.
Tribute is disabled for 12 seconds if you kill a minion.
Frost Queen's Claim
Recipe Changed: Frostfang + Fiendish Codex + 330 Gold = 2000 Gold Total
50 Ability Power --> 40 Ability Power
0% Cooldown Reduction --> 10% Cooldown Reduction
10 MP/5 Unchanged
+4 GP/10 Unchanged
Tribute:
Your spells and attacks deal 15 additional damage to champions and towers and generate 8 gold.
This can happen up to 3 times every 30 seconds.
Tribute is NOT disabled if you kill a minion at this upgrade level
Active:
Free Target instead of Enemy Targetted
Increased Cast Range to 850 from 600
Area of Effect size decreased to 300 from 400
Magic Damage increased to 50 + 10 per champion level
Now applies an 80% slow that decays over 3 seconds from a flat 50% slow over 2 seconds
Updated particles
Spellthief edge on live is pretty bad for a couple of reasons first of which being that the final item is really terrible compared to the other options, but tier 1 also has some flaws. the Mp5 on Coin and Edge are the same so you don't actually get to cast any additional spells with this item, it is significantly harder to maximize the gold generation from this item as compared to the two other options, it is the only one that gives you 0 sustain.
So lets look at the changes, it now has no AP but adds base damage which should equal more damage than the ap did in the first place, so thats good, but you still have to trade in order to get the gold, and you lose ap for defensive abilities like shields and heals which is important since this item provides no sustain. Because this item has no health it's actually also terrible for low level all-ins so I'm not really sure what advantage you would gain from opening this item instead of one of the other two.
The text also reads "Your spells and attacks deal 10 additional damage to champions and towers and generate 4 gold.
This can happen up to 3 times every 30 seconds." so does the gold generation go on cd? or the gold generation AND the damage, if the damage goes on cd this item is pretty terrible, if not it's usable vs weak lanes who can be auto attack harassed and thats about it. In most cases even with the proposed nerfs Dshield would still be the better trading item vs. t1 and t2 spell thief.
The final item does look overall a lot better, the way I read the active it sounds like CM's Crystal Nova which would be really good in the right situations, I like how it does not punish you for pushing either, if you can get to the final item this route may be decent on certain supports now, but the first 2 tiers are at best a slight upgrade from a pretty weak position.
If this item to have good trading lane strength in t1 and t2, which from the developer comments seems to be the case, they need to model it after the strongest AP lane item in the game, Athenes. borrow the hp per minion killed from coin, instead give me enough mp per minion to throw spells out on a regular basis, maybe give the t2 a little bit of cdr and I think you'd have something, as is it's just too weak in lane to justify.
Relic Shield
Relic Shield
50 Health --> 75 Health
6 HP/5 --> 0 HP/5
Spoils of War:
Heals your ally and yourself for 40 Health upon killing a unit.
Grants gold equal to the kill to your ally, but does not grant the additional +5 on live.
2 Max Charges, 60 second CD Unchanged
Targon's Brace
175 Health Unchanged
12 HP/5 --> 4 HP/5
Spoils of War:
Heals your ally and yourself for 50 Health upon killing a unit.
Grants gold equal to the kill to your ally, but does not grant the additional +5 on live.
3 Max Charges, 30 second CD Unchanged
Face of the Mountain
Recipe Changed: Targon's Brace + Kindlegem + 300 Gold = 2000 Total Gold
Stats Unchanged
Spoils of War:
Heals your ally and yourself for 50+1% of your Maximum Health upon killing a unit.
Grants gold equal to the kill to your ally, but does not grant the additional +5 on live.
4 Max Charges, 30 second CD Unchanged
Active:
No longer costs Health to activate
Damage now scales based off of 150% of the target's total Attack Damage
it's hard to talk about this item outside of the context of the coin buffs. So currently Relic Shield generates 72 health per min, while this new one does 40 assuming you never allow it to sit on 2 charges it's already been nerfed to be not so good on ranged heroes so basically this is for melee supports and it provides the least regen of any of the items. It no longer gives bonus gold so it doesn't have that going for it, the only thing it does have is additional health if you want to go for a low level all in, and the heal on your ad is actually increased by a significant amount in the early game.
Face of the mountain now scales off attack damage of the target making it actually terrible when not used on the adc. I don't get this change at all, it's a pretty nice buff in the 5/10 where you cast it on the AD, like I like that it does not take your health away I just don't like that they are saying to only ever cast it on the AD, if I cast it on my Ziggs who is death marked now it's terrible? I just don't like that.
At 850g total price and 175 health and 4hp/5 Targon's Brace is actually just complete dogs shit when compared to sightstone (which is being reduced to 850g total) it's just a matter of finding workable starting items for that route (that can compare to coin) Probably just go nerfed Dshield which ALSO generates more health than Relic shield in addition to the block.
Overall the changes seem to only buff the final version of the items, while making the item with the strongest post lane phase presence have the best lane phase, I mean LOL?
Not a fan of the changes but I'd be interested in other opinions.
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I think you might be a little too hard on Relic Shield.
40 health per execute on a 60 second cooldown is 3.33 HP/5, which on paper doesn't look as good as the old 6 HP/5.
But the thing to remember is you come into the lane with the initial two charges, and 25 extra HP than you had before. A 105 initial HP difference than you had before. It would take 200 seconds in lane for the old Relic Shield to make up that difference, and only after that does it start to become better. So at level 1 and level 2, the new Relic Shield will be stronger.
What's weird about that though, and what I don't like, is that the gold generation on Relic Shield incentivizes you to use at least one charge immediately so it will start recharging, while the HP gain incentivizes you to wait until you get hit to use a charge. Which means it's actually more effective for the enemy duo to not poke you until you've used one charge. That's just awkward and weird.
Targons is just straight better than it was before, as is Face of the Mountain. I wouldn't look at the active in terms of using it on your ADC for damage. Think of it more as additional tanky stats for that Leona who wants to engage into the enemy team. Now she is totally okay with using it on herself just prior to the engage since it won't cost her any health.
I also think the AP items are better than you're giving them credit for, but the point of lack of sustain is a good point.
Personally I'd prefer if they just did what they did with the jungle items. It's clear that Ancient Coins method of gold generation is the most consistent and easiest to manage. Just change all three items to Ancient Coins gold generation method. Then they can fiddle with the stats however they need to to balance the three items.
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Unless I'm reading the post on S@20 wrong the new active is 150% of target AD with 0 base so it's pretty terrible as a self cast for Leona.
I should clarify that from my position Terrible is a pretty steep cliff when it comes to competitive gaming, like you say "I'm being to harsh", and I say for items that literally lock one another out there has to be situations where it is superior to the other to be not terrible, hence since this version of shield is worse than Coin at all phases of the game, it's a pile of garbage, that can be trumped by a casual coin and a sightstone.
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You're thinking about the damage. It's still 10% of Leona's max HP added as a shield to Leona right before she dives into everyone.
Before you couldn't look at it that way because if she used it before the fight started the cost of the active would be just as much as the shield, you had to either use it on somebody else while you weren't being focused (which is odd because melee supports tend to try to get themselves focused if they can), or you had to wait till your HP was really low and try to use it then, in which case you never got the damage because you either died or got out of the fight.
Now you can use it as an initiation ability on whoever is diving, and it makes a lot more sense. Could also use it on that Vi or Zed or Riven right as they jump into the enemy team.
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yea it's actually a direct buff that is quite strong in the right situation, I just read it poorly.
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I'd also be really interested in seeing the new Relic in a double bruiser kill lane situation.
Say we get Jarvan Leona or Jarvan Pantheon or some manly lane like that, and they open double Relic. On top of the Dshield being nerfed now they can trade level 1 before clearing the creep wave because they know the creep wave is going to be giving them each 160 HP in immediate heals.
Could do some silly strong level 1 combination with it like Darius Gangplank or whatever.
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current relic shield is already stupid strong on bruiser lanes.
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Haven't added them yet because they aren't currently on the PBE.
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I dunno, I know Riot said in the post that they weren't intending to have Ruby Crystal openings become a thing, but that honestly doesn't seem so bad, going, say, Ruby + ward + pot or ruby + 3 pots (or Ruby + ward or Ruby + 2 pots if going deep into defense on melee supports). That fast Sightstone would really kick ass.
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It wouldn't be awful, but I think it would be strictly worse than Relic Shield.
The stats on Relic Shield are WAY better, and it gives GP10 immediately. Targons gives more GP10 than a Sightstone.
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On February 16 2014 04:34 Slusher wrote:
current relic shield is already stupid strong on bruiser lanes.
problem is I don't think bruiser lanes will ever amount to anything more than a cheese strat.
The problem with Face of the Mountain is that it's basically strictly worse than Crucible, and every support will buy crucible at some point. Then you add in the strength of Shurelya's and it's a no contest. Targon has great lane sustain and the gold generation isn't bad, but it's just simply not worth it to upgrade it all the way.
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I'm not sure how much better the Shurelya active will be than the suggested versions of the other two.
The Frost Queens Claim active is almost identical to a slightly shorter range Leona ult, and should be quite good for engages and disengages. Depends on if they give it a missile speed / delay / whatever.
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On February 16 2014 05:13 Ketara wrote:
It wouldn't be awful, but I think it would be strictly worse than Relic Shield.
The stats on Relic Shield are WAY better, and it gives GP10 immediately. Targons gives more GP10 than a Sightstone.
While it's true that the stats on Relic Shield (and Targon's) are better than Ruby Crystal and Sightstone, Sightstone does beat Targon's at GP10.
Before 6 mins, melee minions give 19, casters 14, and siege minions 40/41. Between 6-12 mins, it's 20 from melee, 15 from casters, and 42/43 from siege minions. In an ideal case for Targon's, where you're getting the Siege minion and two melee's (say, at 6 - 9 mins, or more realistically 6:30 to 9:30).
42 + 20 + 20 = 82/ 90 sec, or 164 / 3 mins.
Sightstone is no longer limited to two wards at a time, so Sightstone can place 75 x 3 = 225 / 3 mins in wards.
Granted, this is an ideal case scenario for both items, but it's worth noting that while Targon's gives sustain for yourself and the carry, it also creates opportunities for your opponents to put damage on you, so some of that health regen advantage is lost because of this. Also, Sightstone can run out of charges in lane so the GP10 can stop if you run out of charges.
One thing I would like to note, though, is that because of the spammability of wards from Sightstone, someone opening Ruby Crystal could benefit from a Sweeper trinket rather than Ward trinket. The opposing support is going to have a hard time winning the ward wars after the first back if you have 4 spammable wards and a sweeper. Of course, that means you have to start w/ a Sweeper trinket.
Am I saying that I think Ruby -> Sightstone first is necessarily better than Relic -> Targon's first? No, but it looks like a fair option at these prices. Additionally, not every support is going to want to head down the Targon's line.
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On February 16 2014 06:10 Ketara wrote:
I'm not sure how much better the Shurelya active will be than the suggested versions of the other two.
The Frost Queens Claim active is almost identical to a slightly shorter range Leona ult, and should be quite good for engages and disengages. Depends on if they give it a missile speed / delay / whatever.
not being able to stun is much worse than Leona ult. Plus, Shurelya's is likely still going to be more useful for engages/disengages depending on how fast the Frost Queen Claim active projectile is. It's stated that it will be a projectile.
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EPT
