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On December 09 2013 01:23 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:46 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On December 08 2013 16:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 16:05 Kinie wrote:On December 08 2013 15:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 15:12 iCanada wrote:
I'd like to just brag and say that I was the first person to say that Lucian was a strong Champ here on TL-LoL.
Like 5 people told me I was wrong and that he was complete and utter garbage.
<3 he was utter garbage on release. His Q being buggy and costing double mana + enemies dodging it without even trying to made him pretty weak. After those fixes + some qol mana regen buffs he became really goddam strong. That passive is absurd. Honestly it's the passive that makes him so strong. Even when he was bugged at launch I just felt that if I got some AD items (usually BT into LW) that I'd just want to use my abilities more to get my passive to go off as often as possible for maximum damage. It was also when people realized they could abuse Lucian's passive/burst with Triforce when he got really strong. On release people were doing Bork rushes on him which are pretty bad. People are still doing this retardation on Quinn. Once a pro plays her on stream and goes BT first she will be fotm op, no doubt in my mind. I don't think going BT first would fix Quinn. She actually doesn't scale all that well with AD. Quinns ult combo only has between a 1.35 to 1.85 AD ratio, depending on target health, and Skystrike never actually does max damage because it only does full damage when the target has 0 HP. Compare that to more conventional BT first ADCs. Graves combo - 2.0 to 2.76 AD Varus combo - 2.2 AD Draven combo - 1.79 to 3.15 AD etcetera What Quinn does scale really well with is armor pen and cooldown reduction, and there's not really much itemization that goes in that direction. If Ghostblade got a buff she'd really like it. I do agree that rushing BotRK on her is kinda dumb, though. I like to rush Bilgewater and then finish BotRK as 2nd or even 3rd item.
I agree that Bilgewater is probably the best first item for her, to be honest.
Doesn't Skystrike work like Riven ult, where the max damage is when the enemy is at like %30 or lower? I didn't think they scaled right down to 0%. It's not missing hp%, it's a flat damage addition; maybe I misunderstand the mechanic?
I'm considering her passive procs and the extra autoattack after them as part of her AD scaling...maybe that's inaccurate?
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On December 09 2013 04:35 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:23 Ketara wrote:On December 08 2013 18:46 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On December 08 2013 16:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 16:05 Kinie wrote:On December 08 2013 15:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 15:12 iCanada wrote:
I'd like to just brag and say that I was the first person to say that Lucian was a strong Champ here on TL-LoL.
Like 5 people told me I was wrong and that he was complete and utter garbage.
<3 he was utter garbage on release. His Q being buggy and costing double mana + enemies dodging it without even trying to made him pretty weak. After those fixes + some qol mana regen buffs he became really goddam strong. That passive is absurd. Honestly it's the passive that makes him so strong. Even when he was bugged at launch I just felt that if I got some AD items (usually BT into LW) that I'd just want to use my abilities more to get my passive to go off as often as possible for maximum damage. It was also when people realized they could abuse Lucian's passive/burst with Triforce when he got really strong. On release people were doing Bork rushes on him which are pretty bad. People are still doing this retardation on Quinn. Once a pro plays her on stream and goes BT first she will be fotm op, no doubt in my mind. I don't think going BT first would fix Quinn. She actually doesn't scale all that well with AD. Quinns ult combo only has between a 1.35 to 1.85 AD ratio, depending on target health, and Skystrike never actually does max damage because it only does full damage when the target has 0 HP. Compare that to more conventional BT first ADCs. Graves combo - 2.0 to 2.76 AD Varus combo - 2.2 AD Draven combo - 1.79 to 3.15 AD etcetera What Quinn does scale really well with is armor pen and cooldown reduction, and there's not really much itemization that goes in that direction. If Ghostblade got a buff she'd really like it. I do agree that rushing BotRK on her is kinda dumb, though. I like to rush Bilgewater and then finish BotRK as 2nd or even 3rd item. I agree that Bilgewater is probably the best first item for her, to be honest. Doesn't Skystrike work like Riven ult, where the max damage is when the enemy is at like %30 or lower? I didn't think they scaled right down to 0%. It's not missing hp%, it's a flat damage addition; maybe I misunderstand the mechanic? I'm considering her passive procs and the extra autoattack after them as part of her AD scaling...maybe that's inaccurate?
Her ult works just like Rivens, but caps when the target has 0 HP instead of 25% HP. It's honestly kind of dumb.
Her passive is actually really good if you can get the combo of Harrier > E > Harrier > Q. That combo has a 1.85 bonus AD ratio on it and does a lot of damage. At level 2 that's doing 180+1.85 bonus AD.
But compare that to like, a level 2 Varus combo. Level 2 Varus E Q can do 163+2.2 bonus AD.
A level 2 Lucian WQ combo (I have no idea how you skill Lucian this is just an example) with passive procs does 192+2.2 bonus AD.
Both Varus and Lucians combos are also a lot easier to do, because Quinns combo requires you to wait for Valor to mark the right target. It's more random than it probably should be and realistically when Valor marks them they just walk away since Quinn has to get within 525 range of them to start the combo.
Her passive isn't active during her ult, so she loses a lot of potential damage there. Sometimes (rarely) Valor marks the guy you combo'd right after you use Skystrike and switch back to Quinn, but this honestly doesn't happen hardly ever. If you know someone has no escapes you can just walk into them and go Q-R-E-auto which is more damage, but if they have any kind of escape move you can't do that.
What Quinn does really like is Brutalizer, because her abilities have high base damage and low cooldowns. But she doesn't like BC because she doesn't have a cheesy way to apply BC stacks to the enemy team, and while she really likes the stats on Ghostblade, it just doesn't give enough of them to warrant taking over a bigger item. So if you go Brutalizer on her you end up in this really awkward position where you have Bilgewater Cutlass + Brutalizer and don't want to upgrade either of them. She also really likes Phage funnily enough.
Personally I think the two big problems with Quinn right now are that A - Skystrike does less damage than it appears to because of the damage increase not capping till the target is at 0 HP, and B - Vault should do more damage as Valor than as Quinn.
The fact that her big execute combo doesn't really do more damage than her passive-E-passive-Q combo is depressing. I'm not expecting Zed level damage, but I would expect her damage to increase as Valor since she becomes melee. It really doesn't.
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On December 08 2013 18:56 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:55 Usagi wrote:On December 08 2013 18:53 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 17:01 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2013 16:05 Kinie wrote:On December 08 2013 15:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 15:12 iCanada wrote:
I'd like to just brag and say that I was the first person to say that Lucian was a strong Champ here on TL-LoL.
Like 5 people told me I was wrong and that he was complete and utter garbage.
<3 he was utter garbage on release. His Q being buggy and costing double mana + enemies dodging it without even trying to made him pretty weak. After those fixes + some qol mana regen buffs he became really goddam strong. That passive is absurd. Honestly it's the passive that makes him so strong. Even when he was bugged at launch I just felt that if I got some AD items (usually BT into LW) that I'd just want to use my abilities more to get my passive to go off as often as possible for maximum damage. Yeah. Thats what I said when he was released, his Passive balls OP. That and he has a great lane phase, and that was when his Q was hard bugged. That, and having two dashes in teamfights is OP. He only has one dash on E... Or are you counting Flash as well. Doesnt dash refresh if youkill someone with the ultimate? yes but that's relatively rare since your autos tend to have higher dps than your ult. plus if you're counting resets Lucian technically has 6 dashes.
Its 2 pretty much guaranteed in any team fight... UYlt has a low cooldown and you can pop it and cancel it any time you want.
If you guys aren't using The Culling for them free Dash resets you doing it wrong. lol. Just kill a guy, then press R and Cancel as he dies.
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On December 09 2013 05:06 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 04:35 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On December 09 2013 01:23 Ketara wrote:On December 08 2013 18:46 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On December 08 2013 16:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 16:05 Kinie wrote:On December 08 2013 15:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 08 2013 15:12 iCanada wrote:
I'd like to just brag and say that I was the first person to say that Lucian was a strong Champ here on TL-LoL.
Like 5 people told me I was wrong and that he was complete and utter garbage.
<3 he was utter garbage on release. His Q being buggy and costing double mana + enemies dodging it without even trying to made him pretty weak. After those fixes + some qol mana regen buffs he became really goddam strong. That passive is absurd. Honestly it's the passive that makes him so strong. Even when he was bugged at launch I just felt that if I got some AD items (usually BT into LW) that I'd just want to use my abilities more to get my passive to go off as often as possible for maximum damage. It was also when people realized they could abuse Lucian's passive/burst with Triforce when he got really strong. On release people were doing Bork rushes on him which are pretty bad. People are still doing this retardation on Quinn. Once a pro plays her on stream and goes BT first she will be fotm op, no doubt in my mind. I don't think going BT first would fix Quinn. She actually doesn't scale all that well with AD. Quinns ult combo only has between a 1.35 to 1.85 AD ratio, depending on target health, and Skystrike never actually does max damage because it only does full damage when the target has 0 HP. Compare that to more conventional BT first ADCs. Graves combo - 2.0 to 2.76 AD Varus combo - 2.2 AD Draven combo - 1.79 to 3.15 AD etcetera What Quinn does scale really well with is armor pen and cooldown reduction, and there's not really much itemization that goes in that direction. If Ghostblade got a buff she'd really like it. I do agree that rushing BotRK on her is kinda dumb, though. I like to rush Bilgewater and then finish BotRK as 2nd or even 3rd item. I agree that Bilgewater is probably the best first item for her, to be honest. Doesn't Skystrike work like Riven ult, where the max damage is when the enemy is at like %30 or lower? I didn't think they scaled right down to 0%. It's not missing hp%, it's a flat damage addition; maybe I misunderstand the mechanic? I'm considering her passive procs and the extra autoattack after them as part of her AD scaling...maybe that's inaccurate? Her ult works just like Rivens, but caps when the target has 0 HP instead of 25% HP. It's honestly kind of dumb. Her passive is actually really good if you can get the combo of Harrier > E > Harrier > Q. That combo has a 1.85 bonus AD ratio on it and does a lot of damage. At level 2 that's doing 180+1.85 bonus AD. But compare that to like, a level 2 Varus combo. Level 2 Varus E Q can do 163+2.2 bonus AD. A level 2 Lucian WQ combo (I have no idea how you skill Lucian this is just an example) with passive procs does 192+2.2 bonus AD. Both Varus and Lucians combos are also a lot easier to do, because Quinns combo requires you to wait for Valor to mark the right target. It's more random than it probably should be and realistically when Valor marks them they just walk away since Quinn has to get within 525 range of them to start the combo. Her passive isn't active during her ult, so she loses a lot of potential damage there. Sometimes (rarely) Valor marks the guy you combo'd right after you use Skystrike and switch back to Quinn, but this honestly doesn't happen hardly ever. If you know someone has no escapes you can just walk into them and go Q-R-E-auto which is more damage, but if they have any kind of escape move you can't do that. What Quinn does really like is Brutalizer, because her abilities have high base damage and low cooldowns. But she doesn't like BC because she doesn't have a cheesy way to apply BC stacks to the enemy team, and while she really likes the stats on Ghostblade, it just doesn't give enough of them to warrant taking over a bigger item. So if you go Brutalizer on her you end up in this really awkward position where you have Bilgewater Cutlass + Brutalizer and don't want to upgrade either of them. She also really likes Phage funnily enough. Personally I think the two big problems with Quinn right now are that A - Skystrike does less damage than it appears to because of the damage increase not capping till the target is at 0 HP, and B - Vault should do more damage as Valor than as Quinn. The fact that her big execute combo doesn't really do more damage than her passive-E-passive-Q combo is depressing. I'm not expecting Zed level damage, but I would expect her damage to increase as Valor since she becomes melee. It really doesn't.
Scaling to 0% isn't bad. It just means if someone has a big shield on them (barrier) and 0 hp you deal more damage to it.
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It's bad because it means that it literally cannot do the maximum damage that is listed in the tooltip. It doesn't do enough damage either way, but the tooltip shouldn't appear to lie to people who don't read it carefully.
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Quinn would be better as a duelist, and thus a splitpusher, I'd say. Harrier is bad for burst, but being able to have it every 3 seconds gives pretty decent dps if you can get it consistently, and it raises the value of a blind if you can fight 1v1. Same with Vault which is much more risky when it puts you in range of other people than the one you interrupts/lets them cc you before you jump away.
The fact the Quinn only gets her steroid when she triggers Harrier it a big tell that she's not supposed to be frontloaded like Graves or Sivir are.
But since you generally want the marksman with the team unless you're going for a 1-3-1 split, it means you can't send Quinn splitpush without having at least another source of tower damage. I'd say that's why she's better off mid (although I just noticed how long her ult cd is at early levels, doesn't help her roaming) and relying on dueling/splitpushing than trying to make her work in a teamfighting comp.
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Yeah I think Quinn is best mid, because it's mid lane where she can use the roaming potential with her ult.
But even mid I think she's weak right now, and could use a buff. I really like her kit, she's one of my favorite champions to play. She just doesn't do enough damage. If you can get an early kill in lane with her 1v1 she can really get rolling and start snowballing other lanes with her ult, but that's rare.
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Thanks for that post Ketara, I'm sure that Quinn is next op and she's my favorite champion to play right now so I'm trying to brush up on her mechanics. I just assumed that her ult worked like Riven's...riot pls.
Once you get a kill with Quinn, you can ride that advantage straight to lategame if you don't fall back behind due to ganks. Quinn vs Tryndamere might be the easiest lane in the whole game.
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She has a lot of really easy matchups against melee bruisery types, especially if they focus on autoattacks. Stuff like Tryndamere or Xin she can bully super hard.
I still play her mid in ranked but I only pull her out if I know the mid matchup and know it's somebody she can kill 1v1, and if we have an AP on our team already. Basically this doesn't happen very often.
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Hm, Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage have incredible synergy. That 45 hp regen that Banshee's Veil gives is insane when coupled with Spirit Visage's health regen and of course the passive... It's strange Banshee Veil's not built more often on bruisertypes.
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On December 09 2013 06:21 Shikyo wrote:
Hm, Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage have incredible synergy. That 45 hp regen that Banshee's Veil gives is insane when coupled with Spirit Visage's health regen and of course the passive... It's strange Banshee Veil's not built more often on bruisertypes.
Because in general SV is just better than BV, and its very rare that you have room for that much MR. MR is nice but for the most part you want more armor because of that multiplicitave AD damage.
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Quinn has the awkward problem of being an adc that's not really suited for the duo lane, so people don't really know what to do with her, and unless you pick her in a very niche scenario, you put an awkward burden on your teammates to pick around around you. She's also very vulnerable to certain counters, which makes picking her even more difficult and niche.
I'm not really sure what she needs honestly, besides a different meta. Improving her auto-attack animation and especially her harrier proc animation would be a good start.
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On December 09 2013 05:51 Ketara wrote:
Yeah I think Quinn is best mid, because it's mid lane where she can use the roaming potential with her ult.
But even mid I think she's weak right now, and could use a buff. I really like her kit, she's one of my favorite champions to play. She just doesn't do enough damage. If you can get an early kill in lane with her 1v1 she can really get rolling and start snowballing other lanes with her ult, but that's rare.
Not sure about Quinn mid. Most mids have all in potential at 6 that can win them the laning phase and destroy ADC.
I'd definitely put her top or bot instead of mid.
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On December 09 2013 06:26 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 06:21 Shikyo wrote:
Hm, Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage have incredible synergy. That 45 hp regen that Banshee's Veil gives is insane when coupled with Spirit Visage's health regen and of course the passive... It's strange Banshee Veil's not built more often on bruisertypes. Because in general SV is just better than BV, and its very rare that you have room for that much MR. MR is nice but for the most part you want more armor because of that multiplicitave AD damage.
But well, both of those do give a lot of HP and HP regen as well.
For example if we compare Banshee's Veil to Warmog's Armor, it's actually giving you more regen as long as you have less than 4500 hp total.
As long as they have champions like Shyvana and Renekton who deal tons of magic damage, it could be worthwhile.
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The main reason to go BV over SV is when you are against bursty champs that deal their damage in chunks and not in AAs, so vs. a team with a lot of AP champs.
Otherwise I find that SV is the more gold efficient item due to its CDR and regen/ls biff passive.
And it wouldn't surprise me if Quinn picks up again in popularity in certain matchups. I'm not an expert on her but the blind debuff on every Q along with her E being both an escape and an attack means she can duel someone pretty well. She is probably one buff away from being the next fotm champ, probably one to her ult so that its more like Riven's than how it currently is.
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I really wish that Randuin's Omen would give 5% CDR. Sort of annoying that with the 5% CDR mastery and Spirit Visage, I'm at 15% required. Then I can go Brutalizer and be 5 off... Or Frozen heart and be 5 above... Or Iceborn and be 5 off...
I wouldn't mind it being 300 or so gold more expensive with that.
And well hm, I just feel like the massive amounts of HP regen are very useful even if the opponents mostly deal physical dmg, as long as they have some magic dmg skills(Nasus, Renekton; Shyvana, Corki).
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you think 5% cdr makes a shit of difference at the plat level? my go to support build on leona/thresh/taric is ice gauntlet > frozen heart and SV. plus masteries thats like 60% cdr.
on the big expensive defensive items, the cdr is almost an afterthought, they are just that good even without it. or i guess more to the point, theres nothing else thats anywhere near as good.
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On December 09 2013 07:00 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 06:26 iCanada wrote:On December 09 2013 06:21 Shikyo wrote:
Hm, Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage have incredible synergy. That 45 hp regen that Banshee's Veil gives is insane when coupled with Spirit Visage's health regen and of course the passive... It's strange Banshee Veil's not built more often on bruisertypes. Because in general SV is just better than BV, and its very rare that you have room for that much MR. MR is nice but for the most part you want more armor because of that multiplicitave AD damage. But well, both of those do give a lot of HP and HP regen as well. For example if we compare Banshee's Veil to Warmog's Armor, it's actually giving you more regen as long as you have less than 4500 hp total. As long as they have champions like Shyvana and Renekton who deal tons of magic damage, it could be worthwhile.
Yeah, but unless their team is like AP top, AP mid, and AP support its kind of pointless getting that much MR. And the vast majority of the time barring like Karthus or Nidalee spears SV is better.
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I think of the 5% CDR mastery as a choice in early-game vs late-game. If you wanted lategame, you'd take attackspeed since you'll probably cap on CDR later anyway.
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depends entirely on champ
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EPT
