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they fixed the fact that it scaled off your Q bonus damage i think.
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Q can crit, it's just only the autoattack part of it will crit, not the base damage+stacks anymore.
Fuck that'll teach me to miss that there's another page.
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On December 03 2013 01:12 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 00:09 Alaric wrote:
Siphoning Strike also has base damage associated with it, although in your calculations it would benefit LW anyway.
Are you sure that the spellblade passive benefits from lifesteal? I thought it was simply damage added on top of the auto.
So it'd mean the autos work something like...
- take base AD and bonuses affected by crit (rare), check if it crits, apply the multiplier if needed
- add the base damage and scaling (and stacks for Nasus) in case of "on next hit" abilities (also Parrrley, Mystic Shot , Double Up and, iirc, Bladesurge?)
- add physical on-hit effects like sheen/gauntlet/triforce spellblade passive or Muramana
- apply lifesteal off of that total
- add magical on-hit effects
I wonder how Poppy's Q interacts with spellvamp and lifesteal, since it converts the entirety of the damage (including spellblade procs and such) to magical. It probably doesn't work with spellvamp anyway.
^ ever since you can trigger the satchel while it's in the ai, Ziggs' escape isn't that long tbh. It's just "not instant". Lifesteal is procced by all physical damage that is dealt on-hit, this includes Sheen, TF and IBG (only the main target damage, not the AoE damage), but not Lich Bane. On-hit magic damage is inconsistent with whether it triggers spell vamp. On-hit magic damage never triggers lifesteal. Some on-hit magic damage triggers neither lifesteal nor spell vamp, like Teemo's E, while others do trigger spell vamp, like Jax's W. I think a Rioter once said that the reasoning was that "Teemo's E doesn't cost anything to use, so it doesn't get benefit from spell vamp, while Jax's W has a mana cost and cooldown so it's allowed to trigger spell vamp". Abilities that convert all of the next autoattack's damage into magic damage, like Poppy's Q or TF's W, proc full spell vamp and do not proc life steal.
So all non mana users shouldn't be allowed to use lifesteal and spellvamp? :D
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On December 03 2013 00:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 23:54 mr_tolkien wrote:
Some fast calculations for 30 minutes Nasus, lvl18 and 500 stacks.
Base damage : 116.3
Triforce Q damage : 116.3 + 30 + 116.3*2 + 500
Against a 200 armor target : 292.96
Against a 100 armor target : 439.45
LW Q damage : 116.3 + 40 + 500
Against a 200 armor target (130 with last whisper) : 285.3
Against a 100 armor target (65 with last whisper) : 397.75
Last whisper is slightly less damaging but costs nearly half the price, and has the upside of benifiting your autos a lot, since your ult gives you quite a lot of AD. Both Trinity force proc and LW autos proc lifesteal, so on this side it doesn't change anything.
LW on Nasus is actually pretty good and easy to build, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Gauntlet is also really good, but it's hard to value mana and the slow. The thing is that, again, Last Whisper gives absolutely nothing but damage, while Trinity Force gives much, much more.
Not that much more. A small MS boost and random crits are pretty much all you get from it.
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On December 03 2013 02:06 Slayer91 wrote:
they fixed the fact that it scaled off your Q bonus damage i think.
That's what I thought. With the wording it seemed ambiguous to me.
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On December 02 2013 23:58 Slayer91 wrote:1: Trinity is only about half built for the sheen proc, the rest you want the utility (including movement speed, phage proc movement speed, extra hp and mana) 2: Q can crit, and so can autos, and also the extra attack speed all go towards improving your autos probably about as much as LW 3: We already established that trinity is prolly bad hue I like alacrity or maybe Fuhrer boot enchant if I want some extra speed. (also ghost op) IBG is 125% of a sheen so ~1500 gold there 70 armour so that's worth ~1200 gold but added weight because armours a real nice stat 10% cdr ~400 gold worth. So it's approximately cost effective without the passive which is one of the main reasons you buy it. Trinity is double sheen so 2400 gold, with ~600 gold worth of hp, so the extra speed and auto damage needs to account for only about ~700 gold, but it lacks the super optimized nasus stats of armour cdr sheen and slow that are combined in IBG, but you can see why it's at least an appealing choice. LW is 2300 gold so you're comparing it to the double sheen proc. Note that 500 stacks is doing well and probably lategame at which point you'd expect LW to be quite a bit stronger, when it isn't reall that much better. At 300-400 stacks and lower armour levels (especially your first spirit fired hit on a squishy) trinity might be even better. That's why you only get LW as a lategame item. (IBG+LW damage, Randuin/SV/GA tank might be a typical build. or IBG+LW+Randuin/FH/Wamog, or LW+Randuin/FH/GA/SV). Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 23:57 Dusty wrote:
what if we assume that the target is in spirit fire? Nobody is ever in spirit fire for like more than 1 Q anyway.
I did a quick bit of math using tolkiens numbers. Triforce is strictly superior damage-wise so long as the target is on spirit fire, not to mention the utility the other stats. Only stat that might be wasted is the mana if you already have another mana source.
I'm of the opinion that the MS, HP, AD and sheen proc are all primary stats on nasus, AS/crit(with ult enhanced autos), AP are secondary stats, and the mana is a tertiary stat.
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On December 03 2013 02:30 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 00:27 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 23:54 mr_tolkien wrote:
Some fast calculations for 30 minutes Nasus, lvl18 and 500 stacks.
Base damage : 116.3
Triforce Q damage : 116.3 + 30 + 116.3*2 + 500
Against a 200 armor target : 292.96
Against a 100 armor target : 439.45
LW Q damage : 116.3 + 40 + 500
Against a 200 armor target (130 with last whisper) : 285.3
Against a 100 armor target (65 with last whisper) : 397.75
Last whisper is slightly less damaging but costs nearly half the price, and has the upside of benifiting your autos a lot, since your ult gives you quite a lot of AD. Both Trinity force proc and LW autos proc lifesteal, so on this side it doesn't change anything.
LW on Nasus is actually pretty good and easy to build, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Gauntlet is also really good, but it's hard to value mana and the slow. The thing is that, again, Last Whisper gives absolutely nothing but damage, while Trinity Force gives much, much more. Not that much more. A small MS boost and random crits are pretty much all you get from it.
200 health 5% +20 move speed, attack speed and a few crits confirmed for nothing.
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On December 03 2013 02:30 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 00:27 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 23:54 mr_tolkien wrote:
Some fast calculations for 30 minutes Nasus, lvl18 and 500 stacks.
Base damage : 116.3
Triforce Q damage : 116.3 + 30 + 116.3*2 + 500
Against a 200 armor target : 292.96
Against a 100 armor target : 439.45
LW Q damage : 116.3 + 40 + 500
Against a 200 armor target (130 with last whisper) : 285.3
Against a 100 armor target (65 with last whisper) : 397.75
Last whisper is slightly less damaging but costs nearly half the price, and has the upside of benifiting your autos a lot, since your ult gives you quite a lot of AD. Both Trinity force proc and LW autos proc lifesteal, so on this side it doesn't change anything.
LW on Nasus is actually pretty good and easy to build, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Gauntlet is also really good, but it's hard to value mana and the slow. The thing is that, again, Last Whisper gives absolutely nothing but damage, while Trinity Force gives much, much more. Not that much more. A small MS boost and random crits are pretty much all you get from it.
Not just MS boost, also flat ms % boost from the zeal component.
Also having early mana from sheen is really nice in lane. There are tons of awesome components that help Nasus out from triforce.
EDIT:shen'd.
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On December 03 2013 02:35 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 02:30 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 03 2013 00:27 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 23:54 mr_tolkien wrote:
Some fast calculations for 30 minutes Nasus, lvl18 and 500 stacks.
Base damage : 116.3
Triforce Q damage : 116.3 + 30 + 116.3*2 + 500
Against a 200 armor target : 292.96
Against a 100 armor target : 439.45
LW Q damage : 116.3 + 40 + 500
Against a 200 armor target (130 with last whisper) : 285.3
Against a 100 armor target (65 with last whisper) : 397.75
Last whisper is slightly less damaging but costs nearly half the price, and has the upside of benifiting your autos a lot, since your ult gives you quite a lot of AD. Both Trinity force proc and LW autos proc lifesteal, so on this side it doesn't change anything.
LW on Nasus is actually pretty good and easy to build, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Gauntlet is also really good, but it's hard to value mana and the slow. The thing is that, again, Last Whisper gives absolutely nothing but damage, while Trinity Force gives much, much more. Not that much more. A small MS boost and random crits are pretty much all you get from it. 200 health 5% +20 move speed, an item slot (assuming he is getting sheen elsewhere, else...sheen procs) 10 ad attack speed and a few crits confirmed for nothing.
Well yeah no shit the most expensive item in game is slot efficient :p
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On December 03 2013 02:37 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 02:35 turdburgler wrote:On December 03 2013 02:30 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 03 2013 00:27 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 23:54 mr_tolkien wrote:
Some fast calculations for 30 minutes Nasus, lvl18 and 500 stacks.
Base damage : 116.3
Triforce Q damage : 116.3 + 30 + 116.3*2 + 500
Against a 200 armor target : 292.96
Against a 100 armor target : 439.45
LW Q damage : 116.3 + 40 + 500
Against a 200 armor target (130 with last whisper) : 285.3
Against a 100 armor target (65 with last whisper) : 397.75
Last whisper is slightly less damaging but costs nearly half the price, and has the upside of benifiting your autos a lot, since your ult gives you quite a lot of AD. Both Trinity force proc and LW autos proc lifesteal, so on this side it doesn't change anything.
LW on Nasus is actually pretty good and easy to build, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Gauntlet is also really good, but it's hard to value mana and the slow. The thing is that, again, Last Whisper gives absolutely nothing but damage, while Trinity Force gives much, much more. Not that much more. A small MS boost and random crits are pretty much all you get from it. 200 health 5% +20 move speed, an item slot (assuming he is getting sheen elsewhere, else...sheen procs) 10 ad attack speed and a few crits confirmed for nothing. Well yeah no shit the most expensive item in game is slot efficient :p
slot effeciency is probably an under rated feature though, because how many times do people come back to lane with pots, boots, their item and some parts of their next item, then die becuase they couldnt carry wards. happens pretty much every game :O
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On December 03 2013 02:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 01:12 thenexusp wrote:On December 03 2013 00:09 Alaric wrote:
Siphoning Strike also has base damage associated with it, although in your calculations it would benefit LW anyway.
Are you sure that the spellblade passive benefits from lifesteal? I thought it was simply damage added on top of the auto.
So it'd mean the autos work something like...
- take base AD and bonuses affected by crit (rare), check if it crits, apply the multiplier if needed
- add the base damage and scaling (and stacks for Nasus) in case of "on next hit" abilities (also Parrrley, Mystic Shot , Double Up and, iirc, Bladesurge?)
- add physical on-hit effects like sheen/gauntlet/triforce spellblade passive or Muramana
- apply lifesteal off of that total
- add magical on-hit effects
I wonder how Poppy's Q interacts with spellvamp and lifesteal, since it converts the entirety of the damage (including spellblade procs and such) to magical. It probably doesn't work with spellvamp anyway.
^ ever since you can trigger the satchel while it's in the ai, Ziggs' escape isn't that long tbh. It's just "not instant". Lifesteal is procced by all physical damage that is dealt on-hit, this includes Sheen, TF and IBG (only the main target damage, not the AoE damage), but not Lich Bane. On-hit magic damage is inconsistent with whether it triggers spell vamp. On-hit magic damage never triggers lifesteal. Some on-hit magic damage triggers neither lifesteal nor spell vamp, like Teemo's E, while others do trigger spell vamp, like Jax's W. I think a Rioter once said that the reasoning was that "Teemo's E doesn't cost anything to use, so it doesn't get benefit from spell vamp, while Jax's W has a mana cost and cooldown so it's allowed to trigger spell vamp". Abilities that convert all of the next autoattack's damage into magic damage, like Poppy's Q or TF's W, proc full spell vamp and do not proc life steal. So all non mana users shouldn't be allowed to use lifesteal and spellvamp? :D
manaless champs still have cooldowns. Teemo's E has no mana cost and no cooldown.
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On December 03 2013 02:35 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 23:58 Slayer91 wrote:1: Trinity is only about half built for the sheen proc, the rest you want the utility (including movement speed, phage proc movement speed, extra hp and mana) 2: Q can crit, and so can autos, and also the extra attack speed all go towards improving your autos probably about as much as LW 3: We already established that trinity is prolly bad hue I like alacrity or maybe Fuhrer boot enchant if I want some extra speed. (also ghost op) IBG is 125% of a sheen so ~1500 gold there 70 armour so that's worth ~1200 gold but added weight because armours a real nice stat 10% cdr ~400 gold worth. So it's approximately cost effective without the passive which is one of the main reasons you buy it. Trinity is double sheen so 2400 gold, with ~600 gold worth of hp, so the extra speed and auto damage needs to account for only about ~700 gold, but it lacks the super optimized nasus stats of armour cdr sheen and slow that are combined in IBG, but you can see why it's at least an appealing choice. LW is 2300 gold so you're comparing it to the double sheen proc. Note that 500 stacks is doing well and probably lategame at which point you'd expect LW to be quite a bit stronger, when it isn't reall that much better. At 300-400 stacks and lower armour levels (especially your first spirit fired hit on a squishy) trinity might be even better. That's why you only get LW as a lategame item. (IBG+LW damage, Randuin/SV/GA tank might be a typical build. or IBG+LW+Randuin/FH/Wamog, or LW+Randuin/FH/GA/SV). On December 02 2013 23:57 Dusty wrote:
what if we assume that the target is in spirit fire? Nobody is ever in spirit fire for like more than 1 Q anyway. I did a quick bit of math using tolkiens numbers. Triforce is strictly superior damage-wise so long as the target is on spirit fire, not to mention the utility the other stats. Only stat that might be wasted is the mana if you already have another mana source. I'm of the opinion that the MS, HP, AD and sheen proc are all primary stats on nasus, AS/crit(with ult enhanced autos), AP are secondary stats, and the mana is a tertiary stat.
HP could be regaded as a primiary stat, MAYBE sheen proc. MS is good, but not needed, AD/AS/Crit are all equally meh
armour/mr/cdr are the main priority, enough HP to avoid being burstable.
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On December 03 2013 01:02 YouGotNothin wrote:
Now that pink wards have no time limit, you can get a ton of use out of them by putting them in hard to spot places. The small patch of bushes in the river near dragon and baron are particularly nice. I have had pink wards last over 10 minutes in those locations.
In my last two games, we had them there at the 10 minute mark and they were never dewarded for the entire game.
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My favorite place is tucking it on the river side in Baron/Dragon coves when you have control of them. They won't know it's there unless they get to the spawn cleanly.
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I don't really want to play League, I just want to get on and Mystery Gift skins to myself. Riot is evil.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 03 2013 02:39 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 02:37 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 03 2013 02:35 turdburgler wrote:On December 03 2013 02:30 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 03 2013 00:27 Shikyo wrote:On December 02 2013 23:54 mr_tolkien wrote:
Some fast calculations for 30 minutes Nasus, lvl18 and 500 stacks.
Base damage : 116.3
Triforce Q damage : 116.3 + 30 + 116.3*2 + 500
Against a 200 armor target : 292.96
Against a 100 armor target : 439.45
LW Q damage : 116.3 + 40 + 500
Against a 200 armor target (130 with last whisper) : 285.3
Against a 100 armor target (65 with last whisper) : 397.75
Last whisper is slightly less damaging but costs nearly half the price, and has the upside of benifiting your autos a lot, since your ult gives you quite a lot of AD. Both Trinity force proc and LW autos proc lifesteal, so on this side it doesn't change anything.
LW on Nasus is actually pretty good and easy to build, and shouldn't be overlooked.
Gauntlet is also really good, but it's hard to value mana and the slow. The thing is that, again, Last Whisper gives absolutely nothing but damage, while Trinity Force gives much, much more. Not that much more. A small MS boost and random crits are pretty much all you get from it. 200 health 5% +20 move speed, an item slot (assuming he is getting sheen elsewhere, else...sheen procs) 10 ad attack speed and a few crits confirmed for nothing. Well yeah no shit the most expensive item in game is slot efficient :p slot effeciency is probably an under rated feature though, because how many times do people come back to lane with pots, boots, their item and some parts of their next item, then die becuase they couldnt carry wards. happens pretty much every game :O
It's also what really matters here because Nasus isn't going to be buying a damage item that early. It's going to be one of your last few items anyway, where you really care about slot efficiency.
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At what point does hiding the pink wards stop being effective? I'm sure at some point players a good enough to check those nooks and crannys to quickly get rid of the pinks.
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the at point when pink wards are dying in 4 minutes or less
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then just pink your own jungle entrances, makes your jungle completely safe for only 100 gold
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On December 03 2013 04:06 SagaZ wrote:
then just pink your own jungle entrances, makes your jungle completely safe for only 100 gold
if you just want your jungle safe, just use regular ward. pink much better for zoning out areas for objectives.
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EPT
