EPTOn October 04 2013 03:25 PrinceXizor wrote:
I believe mathematically it pays for itself ON the third use (so 2 refills). And i believe on a 4th position (AKA not meteos jungler) you shouldn't need to worry about filling up on slots until ultra late, so a flask use in every fight increases your ability to fight throughout the game
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On October 04 2013 03:19 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't like Flask cause I feel so much gold is wasted on the mana regen. If you're getting it purely for the health regen I think it only out-performs red pots cost-wise after like...the 12th or so pot and I'm not sure you'll always chug that many potions. It's definitely something to look into though.
On October 04 2013 03:16 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its's her passive that gives armor/mres. If you just buy a flask thats more effective than anything on jungle shyvana. Wriggles doesn't give a significant advantage. if you need to buy a jungling item, just stop at madreds. or go for ancient golem. on top shyvana cowl + sunfire is so strong in the jungle I'd probably recommend aegis + cowl. Cowl isn't something you should gloss over as a jungling sustain item as weird as it sounds. constant regen during combat and 30 health every time you finish a camp is actually a lot of hp not to mention its far more effective as a later game item and against champions.
On October 04 2013 03:13 Ryuu314 wrote:
HP Regen is a bad combat stat, sure, but so is lifesteal until you get a lot of autoattacking damage. As Shyv you're not going to be getting a lot of raw AD that you can lifesteal off of.
Instead of sinking 1.7k gold on Wriggles just to stay topped off, why not just buy 2~3 pots every time you back instead? It's cheaper and more efficient. It also puts you 1.7k gold closer to Bork, which is incredibly strong on Shyvana.
Wriggle's dueling power is not definitively stronger than Golem. You're trading 25 damage and armor and 15% lifesteal for 500 health, 10% cdr, regen, and tenacity. Pretty sure the healh from Golem far outperforms the 25 armor from Wriggles. The lifesteal is neat, but more or less irrelevant in combat, especially when you could (and should) just be chugging pots. It's also arguable whether 25 AD is so much more useful in a duel than 10% cdr and tenacity that it gets a definitive edge.
On top of that, due to Shyvana's passive (or is it ult now iunno) health is a more valuable stat than resistances since she gets so many free resists from her passive (or ult).
On October 04 2013 02:54 Mauzel wrote:
Those priorities are not given by golem either, but wriggles helps more with her goals :D
Also, as I believe I've heard you say yourself, HP Regen is a highly overrated stat because of it gives 0 combat viability.
I don't know about you but I've played a lot of jungle shyvanna. Life steal from vamp scepter / wriggles is the perfect amount of sustain for Shyvanna and I frequently go from 10-50% in one jungle clear from life steal.
Furthermore, I don't play shyvanna as a front-line hero. I play her as a split pusher and counterjungler. And if you are going to split push and counter jungle you need to be able to duel/escape/ward
Golem is arguably more helpful for running away because you are more resilient to CC but it is inferior to wriggles for dueling. And wriggles comes with a ward albeit a shitty one.
I dunno. Again I have played a lot of jungle shyvanna and I always feel more effective with wriggles than with golem. I'm willing to accept that madreds bilgewater might be better but I do take advantage of the extra ward/life steal/single target damage that wriggles provides for 500 gold.
I used to do razor+spirit as you suggested but it just did not work out for me. The HP regen was not enough to sustain me and the extra clear speed was marginal and my combat stats and dueling ability were not where I wanted them to be.
On October 04 2013 02:19 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, unless you're over-invested into offensive stats, lifesteal outperforms HP regen on pretty much zero junglers as a sustain stat. Lifesteal only retains value for champs that have high enough autoattacking stats either for it to outperform similar gold value in HP regen, or later, autoattacking stats that are so high that lifesteal ats as in-fight healing rather than long-term sustain (the latter is only really true on late-game ADCs).
Lifesteal on Shyvana is very unlikely to exceed the effectiveness of HP regen. As a sustain stat, Shyvana's jungle clear is fast based on her spell damage--you don't actually autoattack that long against anything other than the big monster in each camp, which means lifesteal doesn't really "kick in" as a sustain stat.
And of course, as I've said for the entirety of season 3, Wriggles' cost-effectiveness is really bad compared to Spirit items. Razors + Spirit simply just outperforms Wriggle's in most reasonable circumstances. There's very little incentive to upgrade Razors even if you buy them.
EDIT: It's kind of amusing how you list those 4 priorities for Shyvana, and then proceed to recommend an item that doesn't give you any of 3 of them, and gives the fourth one inefficiently.
The thing is, unless you're over-invested into offensive stats, lifesteal outperforms HP regen on pretty much zero junglers as a sustain stat. Lifesteal only retains value for champs that have high enough autoattacking stats either for it to outperform similar gold value in HP regen, or later, autoattacking stats that are so high that lifesteal ats as in-fight healing rather than long-term sustain (the latter is only really true on late-game ADCs).
Lifesteal on Shyvana is very unlikely to exceed the effectiveness of HP regen. As a sustain stat, Shyvana's jungle clear is fast based on her spell damage--you don't actually autoattack that long against anything other than the big monster in each camp, which means lifesteal doesn't really "kick in" as a sustain stat.
And of course, as I've said for the entirety of season 3, Wriggles' cost-effectiveness is really bad compared to Spirit items. Razors + Spirit simply just outperforms Wriggle's in most reasonable circumstances. There's very little incentive to upgrade Razors even if you buy them.
EDIT: It's kind of amusing how you list those 4 priorities for Shyvana, and then proceed to recommend an item that doesn't give you any of 3 of them, and gives the fourth one inefficiently.
Those priorities are not given by golem either, but wriggles helps more with her goals :D
Also, as I believe I've heard you say yourself, HP Regen is a highly overrated stat because of it gives 0 combat viability.
I don't know about you but I've played a lot of jungle shyvanna. Life steal from vamp scepter / wriggles is the perfect amount of sustain for Shyvanna and I frequently go from 10-50% in one jungle clear from life steal.
Furthermore, I don't play shyvanna as a front-line hero. I play her as a split pusher and counterjungler. And if you are going to split push and counter jungle you need to be able to duel/escape/ward
Golem is arguably more helpful for running away because you are more resilient to CC but it is inferior to wriggles for dueling. And wriggles comes with a ward albeit a shitty one.
I dunno. Again I have played a lot of jungle shyvanna and I always feel more effective with wriggles than with golem. I'm willing to accept that madreds bilgewater might be better but I do take advantage of the extra ward/life steal/single target damage that wriggles provides for 500 gold.
I used to do razor+spirit as you suggested but it just did not work out for me. The HP regen was not enough to sustain me and the extra clear speed was marginal and my combat stats and dueling ability were not where I wanted them to be.
HP Regen is a bad combat stat, sure, but so is lifesteal until you get a lot of autoattacking damage. As Shyv you're not going to be getting a lot of raw AD that you can lifesteal off of.
Instead of sinking 1.7k gold on Wriggles just to stay topped off, why not just buy 2~3 pots every time you back instead? It's cheaper and more efficient. It also puts you 1.7k gold closer to Bork, which is incredibly strong on Shyvana.
Wriggle's dueling power is not definitively stronger than Golem. You're trading 25 damage and armor and 15% lifesteal for 500 health, 10% cdr, regen, and tenacity. Pretty sure the healh from Golem far outperforms the 25 armor from Wriggles. The lifesteal is neat, but more or less irrelevant in combat, especially when you could (and should) just be chugging pots. It's also arguable whether 25 AD is so much more useful in a duel than 10% cdr and tenacity that it gets a definitive edge.
On top of that, due to Shyvana's passive (or is it ult now iunno) health is a more valuable stat than resistances since she gets so many free resists from her passive (or ult).
Its's her passive that gives armor/mres. If you just buy a flask thats more effective than anything on jungle shyvana. Wriggles doesn't give a significant advantage. if you need to buy a jungling item, just stop at madreds. or go for ancient golem. on top shyvana cowl + sunfire is so strong in the jungle I'd probably recommend aegis + cowl. Cowl isn't something you should gloss over as a jungling sustain item as weird as it sounds. constant regen during combat and 30 health every time you finish a camp is actually a lot of hp not to mention its far more effective as a later game item and against champions.
I don't like Flask cause I feel so much gold is wasted on the mana regen. If you're getting it purely for the health regen I think it only out-performs red pots cost-wise after like...the 12th or so pot and I'm not sure you'll always chug that many potions. It's definitely something to look into though.
I believe mathematically it pays for itself ON the third use (so 2 refills). And i believe on a 4th position (AKA not meteos jungler) you shouldn't need to worry about filling up on slots until ultra late, so a flask use in every fight increases your ability to fight throughout the game
This is only if you're using both the hp and mana regen. The mana regen is wasted on Shyvana so one flask is equivalent to 12 potions.
i think we might be saying the same thing, just going about it from different directions.
