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On October 04 2013 01:20 Gaslo wrote:
I just do what Saint does on Shyvana, start long sword + 2, then rush bilgewater. Makes your ganks scarier, and you can upgrade it later if needed. Its not like Shyv clears are slow without wriggle/machete. :I
Then dblade start is better then imo. Better combat stats early on, can allow you to bully enemy jungler.
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dblade start means longer rush to bilgewater and he wants that slow asap.
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Yo are they giving away championship thresh like with riven
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I get bilgewater after wriggles.
To be effective, Shyvanna needs
1) Sustain
2) ASPD
3) MSPD
4) HP
Her goals are
1) Dragon control
2) Counterganking
3) Counter jungling
4) Fast Farming
Wriggles gives you the ability to counterjungle/countergank more effectively thanks to the ward. TBH Shyvanna is one of the few where I think the short ward timer is a blessing. You basically only need that ward for when you are stealing that blue buff and you need it in the bush to see around the corner, but you'll need to replace it when you go back to counterjungle on the redbuff side. The extra life steal, damage to buffs/dragon, and the ward make upgrading madreds to wriggles completely worth it.
Meanwhile, Golem gives you stats that help but they don't help her as much as wriggles does with her two greatest strengths: splitpushing and dragon control. Tenacity is OK on Shyvanna but honestly it's not a priority when you're going to be splitpushing a lot anyway and Shyvanna is impossible to catch even without tenacity. CDR is always good, can't argue with that. HP is good but it does not let you solo dragon.
Furthermore, wriggles is much better for dueling which is where shyvanna truly shines.
So while Golem is okay on her and helps her achieve her goals, I feel like wriggles is better in some key aspects. Especially with my style of play where I go for lots of early dragons / buff steals and split push in the late game. Maybe one where you're playing her more as a teamfighter Golem is good but tbh it just doesn't gel with my understanding of how shyv works.
Edit: it's also a tempo thing. It's kind of hard to explain but I feel like to be succesful on shyvanna you have to be effective at every moment. When I'm building golem I always feel like I lose some tempo. On someone like Lee Sin the sheer damage, mobility, and utility he bring to a gank are not compromised by the components of golem but on shyvanna when I'm sitting on spirit and kindlegem I feel like I'm slowing down the pace of the game, which is not to her advantage
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Please god no stop arguing that Wriggles is a good item, especially on Shyv.
I respectfully(not really but that's the polite thing to say right?) disagree with pretty much every point you listed as her priority stats and goals.
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I think Wriggles on Shyvana is a terrible choice and double lifesteal item is incredibly redundant.
I personally would just go something like sunfire / wits end with botrk, probably. It's not like shyvana needs any help with clearing from her items anyway
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Bilge and wriggles is too much lifesteal. Also since Golem gives you tenacity you can opt for Tabi which have a ridiculous passive against adcs. I hate building mercs when tabi is so stupidly efficient
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i don't even. wat?
How are those goals even debatable? Those are the goals for every jungler. It's just that dragon control and counterjungling/ganking are especially important for shyvanna because she is not an effective ganker, so you need to snowball the game another way.
Statwise:
Sustain: Shyvanna has no inherit sustain. Everyone gets sustain on Shyvanna.
ASPD: Shyvanna ult and Q both benefit from aspd, in addition the fact that Shyvanna is pretty auto-attack reliant
MSPD: If you have ever used phage on Shyv you will understand how important mspd is to shyvanna. Bilgewater is also relevant
HP: Shyvanna's passive gives her MR and armor so they are not a priority defensive wise.
If you disagree with me then please explain what your priority stats and goals are
Edit: I get boots of speed on shyvanna. I don't get tabis because I have no problem dueling ADCs once I get botrk. The main problem is sticking to them when they botrk you, and the mspd + slow reduction lets you stick to them.
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On October 04 2013 02:04 MattBarry wrote:
Bilge and wriggles is too much lifesteal. Also since Golem gives you tenacity you can opt for Tabi which have a ridiculous passive against adcs. I hate building mercs when tabi is so stupidly efficient
Yeah, tabi gives you 10% damage reduction on autos. If you have 100 armor (easy with Shyvana's ult passive and tabi) then that passive would be equivalent to giving you
(100+100+x)/(100+100)=10/9
10/9*(100+100)-100-100=22.2 armor against autoattacks
If you have 125 armor the formula becomes
10/9*(100+125)-100-125=25 armor
Free armor aint bad.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing is, unless you're over-invested into offensive stats, lifesteal outperforms HP regen on pretty much zero junglers as a sustain stat. Lifesteal only retains value for champs that have high enough autoattacking stats either for it to outperform similar gold value in HP regen, or later, autoattacking stats that are so high that lifesteal ats as in-fight healing rather than long-term sustain (the latter is only really true on late-game ADCs).
Lifesteal on Shyvana is very unlikely to exceed the effectiveness of HP regen. As a sustain stat, Shyvana's jungle clear is fast based on her spell damage--you don't actually autoattack that long against anything other than the big monster in each camp, which means lifesteal doesn't really "kick in" as a sustain stat.
And of course, as I've said for the entirety of season 3, Wriggles' cost-effectiveness is really bad compared to Spirit items. Razors + Spirit simply just outperforms Wriggle's in most reasonable circumstances. There's very little incentive to upgrade Razors even if you buy them.
EDIT: It's kind of amusing how you list those 4 priorities for Shyvana, and then proceed to recommend an item that doesn't give you any of 3 of them, and gives the fourth one inefficiently.
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Wriggle's is a mathematically atrocious item to start with (please do not quote the lol wiki, we have been over that many times) and double life steal is way overspending on a stat that really demands balanced itemization. I'm not going to pick your post apart on my phone but I want to give special mention to the wrongness of the idea tabi is for dueling ads. Front line heroes take an incredible amount of incidental physical damage during teamfights.
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I don't even like Shyvana in the jungle anymore. I'm jumping on the Godlike bandwagon.
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On October 04 2013 02:07 Mauzel wrote:
i don't even. wat?
How are those goals even debatable? Those are the goals for every jungler. It's just that dragon control and counterjungling/ganking are especially important for shyvanna because she is not an effective ganker, so you need to snowball the game another way.
Statwise:
Sustain: Shyvanna has no inherit sustain. Everyone gets sustain on Shyvanna.
ASPD: Shyvanna ult and Q both benefit from aspd, in addition the fact that Shyvanna is pretty auto-attack reliant
MSPD: If you have ever used phage on Shyv you will understand how important mspd is to shyvanna. Bilgewater is also relevant
HP: Shyvanna's passive gives her MR and armor so they are not a priority defensive wise.
If you disagree with me then please explain what your priority stats and goals are
Edit: I get boots of speed on shyvanna. I don't get tabis because I have no problem dueling ADCs once I get botrk. The main problem is sticking to them when they botrk you, and the mspd + slow reduction lets you stick to them.
Assuming you put them in order of importance, I just feel like your priorities are awful. Sustain is definitely not her #1 problem, and aspd is not worth prioritizing over having either a)a slow from cutlass or b)tank stats(HP most importantly). I'm also not sure why you think she loses so much tempo investing into golem spirit, her base damage is RETARDED, there are very, very few champs in the game who will even attempt to manfight a Shyv with burnout. It also doesn't hinder your clear speed at all(it might even improve it, what with the CDR and the 10/20% increased skill damage). HP regen is effective in the jungle, HP is effective in early fights, and you can still go cutlass for your slow(I actually like to go spirit stone->cutlass, or maybe just sit on machete if I somehow get a great early start).
Edit: Also I'm pretty much an advocate of just sitting her in toplane and letting her get HUGE AS FUCK, but this is a jungle discussion and she is perfectly 'viable' in the role.
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United States47024 Posts
CDR and AS are synergistic with one another on Shyvana's kit. Mixing in CDR is going to be more effective than purely stacking AS, particularly since W and E both can be permanently up at 40% CDR, and they interact favorably with each other on Q.
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I keep hearing people talk about renekton and how he has no counters in the current meta. Is there any champion that can counter renekton in lane or who has the best chance to shut him down in a 1v1? Regardless of the meta.
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On October 04 2013 02:46 Ghost-z wrote:
I keep hearing people talk about renekton and how he has no counters in the current meta. Is there any champion that can counter renekton in lane or who has the best chance to shut him down in a 1v1? Regardless of the meta.
In my experience, Irelia and Vlad both do pretty well if you start dshield and get to level 5+ without getting pooped on, which isn't that hard with dshield.
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I often have good success against him with Kennen. I've seen Vlad advocated before, but I suck at Vlad (as ghandi will tell you) so I can't comment.
Teemo can win the matchup as well, but it's not as easy as other matchups are for him. You really need to be on point with positioning and get a big lead early.
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On October 04 2013 02:19 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, unless you're over-invested into offensive stats, lifesteal outperforms HP regen on pretty much zero junglers as a sustain stat. Lifesteal only retains value for champs that have high enough autoattacking stats either for it to outperform similar gold value in HP regen, or later, autoattacking stats that are so high that lifesteal ats as in-fight healing rather than long-term sustain (the latter is only really true on late-game ADCs).
Lifesteal on Shyvana is very unlikely to exceed the effectiveness of HP regen. As a sustain stat, Shyvana's jungle clear is fast based on her spell damage--you don't actually autoattack that long against anything other than the big monster in each camp, which means lifesteal doesn't really "kick in" as a sustain stat.
And of course, as I've said for the entirety of season 3, Wriggles' cost-effectiveness is really bad compared to Spirit items. Razors + Spirit simply just outperforms Wriggle's in most reasonable circumstances. There's very little incentive to upgrade Razors even if you buy them.
EDIT: It's kind of amusing how you list those 4 priorities for Shyvana, and then proceed to recommend an item that doesn't give you any of 3 of them, and gives the fourth one inefficiently.
Those priorities are not given by golem either, but wriggles helps more with her goals :D
Also, as I believe I've heard you say yourself, HP Regen is a highly overrated stat because of it gives 0 combat viability.
I don't know about you but I've played a lot of jungle shyvanna. Life steal from vamp scepter / wriggles is the perfect amount of sustain for Shyvanna and I frequently go from 10-50% in one jungle clear from life steal.
Furthermore, I don't play shyvanna as a front-line hero. I play her as a split pusher and counterjungler. And if you are going to split push and counter jungle you need to be able to duel/escape/ward
Golem is arguably more helpful for running away because you are more resilient to CC but it is inferior to wriggles for dueling. And wriggles comes with a ward albeit a shitty one.
I dunno. Again I have played a lot of jungle shyvanna and I always feel more effective with wriggles than with golem. I'm willing to accept that madreds bilgewater might be better but I do take advantage of the extra ward/life steal/single target damage that wriggles provides for 500 gold.
I used to do razor+spirit as you suggested but it just did not work out for me. The HP regen was not enough to sustain me and the extra clear speed was marginal and my combat stats and dueling ability were not where I wanted them to be.
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On October 04 2013 02:30 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 02:07 Mauzel wrote:
i don't even. wat?
How are those goals even debatable? Those are the goals for every jungler. It's just that dragon control and counterjungling/ganking are especially important for shyvanna because she is not an effective ganker, so you need to snowball the game another way.
Statwise:
Sustain: Shyvanna has no inherit sustain. Everyone gets sustain on Shyvanna.
ASPD: Shyvanna ult and Q both benefit from aspd, in addition the fact that Shyvanna is pretty auto-attack reliant
MSPD: If you have ever used phage on Shyv you will understand how important mspd is to shyvanna. Bilgewater is also relevant
HP: Shyvanna's passive gives her MR and armor so they are not a priority defensive wise.
If you disagree with me then please explain what your priority stats and goals are
Edit: I get boots of speed on shyvanna. I don't get tabis because I have no problem dueling ADCs once I get botrk. The main problem is sticking to them when they botrk you, and the mspd + slow reduction lets you stick to them. Assuming you put them in order of importance, I just feel like your priorities are awful. Sustain is definitely not her #1 problem, and aspd is not worth prioritizing over having either a)a slow from cutlass or b)tank stats(HP most importantly). I'm also not sure why you think she loses so much tempo investing into golem spirit, her base damage is RETARDED, there are very, very few champs in the game who will even attempt to manfight a Shyv with burnout. It also doesn't hinder your clear speed at all(it might even improve it, what with the CDR and the 10/20% increased skill damage). HP regen is effective in the jungle, HP is effective in early fights, and you can still go cutlass for your slow(I actually like to go spirit stone->cutlass, or maybe just sit on machete if I somehow get a great early start). Edit: Also I'm pretty much an advocate of just sitting her in toplane and letting her get HUGE AS FUCK, but this is a jungle discussion and she is perfectly 'viable' in the role.
They are not in order of importance. Shyv can easily lose duels to popular junglers like Lee Sin if you do not invest in combat stats.
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On October 04 2013 01:45 Mauzel wrote:
I get bilgewater after wriggles.
To be effective, Shyvanna needs
1) Sustain
2) ASPD
3) MSPD
4) HP
Her goals are
1) Dragon control
2) Counterganking
3) Counter jungling
4) Fast Farming
Wriggles gives you the ability to counterjungle/countergank more effectively thanks to the ward. TBH Shyvanna is one of the few where I think the short ward timer is a blessing. You basically only need that ward for when you are stealing that blue buff and you need it in the bush to see around the corner, but you'll need to replace it when you go back to counterjungle on the redbuff side. The extra life steal, damage to buffs/dragon, and the ward make upgrading madreds to wriggles completely worth it.
Meanwhile, Golem gives you stats that help but they don't help her as much as wriggles does with her two greatest strengths: splitpushing and dragon control. Tenacity is OK on Shyvanna but honestly it's not a priority when you're going to be splitpushing a lot anyway and Shyvanna is impossible to catch even without tenacity. CDR is always good, can't argue with that. HP is good but it does not let you solo dragon.
Furthermore, wriggles is much better for dueling which is where shyvanna truly shines.
So while Golem is okay on her and helps her achieve her goals, I feel like wriggles is better in some key aspects. Especially with my style of play where I go for lots of early dragons / buff steals and split push in the late game. Maybe one where you're playing her more as a teamfighter Golem is good but tbh it just doesn't gel with my understanding of how shyv works.
Edit: it's also a tempo thing. It's kind of hard to explain but I feel like to be succesful on shyvanna you have to be effective at every moment. When I'm building golem I always feel like I lose some tempo. On someone like Lee Sin the sheer damage, mobility, and utility he bring to a gank are not compromised by the components of golem but on shyvanna when I'm sitting on spirit and kindlegem I feel like I'm slowing down the pace of the game, which is not to her advantage
So out of your priorities, Wriggles gives you some sustain, no ASPD, no MSPD, no HP. Next you get Bork for sustain, ASPD, and MSPD on demand, still having zero hp items. Would it not be more efficient to get Ancient Golem then Bork, because with that you have all of your "important" bases covered, without sacrificing clear time at all? It just seems like a no brainer, if you're going to delay bork until after yo uget 2k gold (which wriggles and ancient golem both cost) to cover 4 bases instead of just 3 with two items.
I'd argue further by saying that machete > cutlass > finish AG > finish bork might be an improvement on that build path, but I'm more interested in why you're arguing for something to cover less of your important points over something that covers more of them (not to mention with AG + bork you have both sustain while running around (hp regen) plus lifesteal while fighting (bork)).
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EPT
