[Patch 3.12] (j/k) Jinx General Discussion - Page 40

On October 04 2013 02:19 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, unless you're over-invested into offensive stats, lifesteal outperforms HP regen on pretty much zero junglers as a sustain stat. Lifesteal only retains value for champs that have high enough autoattacking stats either for it to outperform similar gold value in HP regen, or later, autoattacking stats that are so high that lifesteal ats as in-fight healing rather than long-term sustain (the latter is only really true on late-game ADCs).

Lifesteal on Shyvana is very unlikely to exceed the effectiveness of HP regen. As a sustain stat, Shyvana's jungle clear is fast based on her spell damage--you don't actually autoattack that long against anything other than the big monster in each camp, which means lifesteal doesn't really "kick in" as a sustain stat.

And of course, as I've said for the entirety of season 3, Wriggles' cost-effectiveness is really bad compared to Spirit items. Razors + Spirit simply just outperforms Wriggle's in most reasonable circumstances. There's very little incentive to upgrade Razors even if you buy them.

EDIT: It's kind of amusing how you list those 4 priorities for Shyvana, and then proceed to recommend an item that doesn't give you any of 3 of them, and gives the fourth one inefficiently.

On October 04 2013 02:54 Mauzel wrote:


Those priorities are not given by golem either, but wriggles helps more with her goals :D
Also, as I believe I've heard you say yourself, HP Regen is a highly overrated stat because of it gives 0 combat viability.

I don't know about you but I've played a lot of jungle shyvanna. Life steal from vamp scepter / wriggles is the perfect amount of sustain for Shyvanna and I frequently go from 10-50% in one jungle clear from life steal.

Furthermore, I don't play shyvanna as a front-line hero. I play her as a split pusher and counterjungler. And if you are going to split push and counter jungle you need to be able to duel/escape/ward

Golem is arguably more helpful for running away because you are more resilient to CC but it is inferior to wriggles for dueling. And wriggles comes with a ward albeit a shitty one.

I dunno. Again I have played a lot of jungle shyvanna and I always feel more effective with wriggles than with golem. I'm willing to accept that madreds bilgewater might be better but I do take advantage of the extra ward/life steal/single target damage that wriggles provides for 500 gold.

I used to do razor+spirit as you suggested but it just did not work out for me. The HP regen was not enough to sustain me and the extra clear speed was marginal and my combat stats and dueling ability were not where I wanted them to be.

On October 04 2013 03:13 Ryuu314 wrote:

HP Regen is a bad combat stat, sure, but so is lifesteal until you get a lot of autoattacking damage. As Shyv you're not going to be getting a lot of raw AD that you can lifesteal off of.

Instead of sinking 1.7k gold on Wriggles just to stay topped off, why not just buy 2~3 pots every time you back instead? It's cheaper and more efficient. It also puts you 1.7k gold closer to Bork, which is incredibly strong on Shyvana.

Wriggle's dueling power is not definitively stronger than Golem. You're trading 25 damage and armor and 15% lifesteal for 500 health, 10% cdr, regen, and tenacity. Pretty sure the healh from Golem far outperforms the 25 armor from Wriggles. The lifesteal is neat, but more or less irrelevant in combat, especially when you could (and should) just be chugging pots. It's also arguable whether 25 AD is so much more useful in a duel than 10% cdr and tenacity that it gets a definitive edge.

On top of that, due to Shyvana's passive (or is it ult now iunno) health is a more valuable stat than resistances since she gets so many free resists from her passive (or ult).

On October 04 2013 01:45 Mauzel wrote:
I get bilgewater after wriggles.

To be effective, Shyvanna needs
1) Sustain
2) ASPD
3) MSPD
4) HP

Her goals are
1) Dragon control
2) Counterganking
3) Counter jungling
4) Fast Farming

Wriggles gives you the ability to counterjungle/countergank more effectively thanks to the ward. TBH Shyvanna is one of the few where I think the short ward timer is a blessing. You basically only need that ward for when you are stealing that blue buff and you need it in the bush to see around the corner, but you'll need to replace it when you go back to counterjungle on the redbuff side. The extra life steal, damage to buffs/dragon, and the ward make upgrading madreds to wriggles completely worth it.

Meanwhile, Golem gives you stats that help but they don't help her as much as wriggles does with her two greatest strengths: splitpushing and dragon control. Tenacity is OK on Shyvanna but honestly it's not a priority when you're going to be splitpushing a lot anyway and Shyvanna is impossible to catch even without tenacity. CDR is always good, can't argue with that. HP is good but it does not let you solo dragon.

Furthermore, wriggles is much better for dueling which is where shyvanna truly shines.

So while Golem is okay on her and helps her achieve her goals, I feel like wriggles is better in some key aspects. Especially with my style of play where I go for lots of early dragons / buff steals and split push in the late game. Maybe one where you're playing her more as a teamfighter Golem is good but tbh it just doesn't gel with my understanding of how shyv works.

Edit: it's also a tempo thing. It's kind of hard to explain but I feel like to be succesful on shyvanna you have to be effective at every moment. When I'm building golem I always feel like I lose some tempo. On someone like Lee Sin the sheer damage, mobility, and utility he bring to a gank are not compromised by the components of golem but on shyvanna when I'm sitting on spirit and kindlegem I feel like I'm slowing down the pace of the game, which is not to her advantage

On October 04 2013 03:16 PrinceXizor wrote:

Its's her passive that gives armor/mres. If you just buy a flask thats more effective than anything on jungle shyvana. Wriggles doesn't give a significant advantage. if you need to buy a jungling item, just stop at madreds. or go for ancient golem. on top shyvana cowl + sunfire is so strong in the jungle I'd probably recommend aegis + cowl. Cowl isn't something you should gloss over as a jungling sustain item as weird as it sounds. constant regen during combat and 30 health every time you finish a camp is actually a lot of hp not to mention its far more effective as a later game item and against champions.

On October 04 2013 02:54 Mauzel wrote:


Those priorities are not given by golem either, but wriggles helps more with her goals :D
Also, as I believe I've heard you say yourself, HP Regen is a highly overrated stat because of it gives 0 combat viability.

I don't know about you but I've played a lot of jungle shyvanna. Life steal from vamp scepter / wriggles is the perfect amount of sustain for Shyvanna and I frequently go from 10-50% in one jungle clear from life steal.

Furthermore, I don't play shyvanna as a front-line hero. I play her as a split pusher and counterjungler. And if you are going to split push and counter jungle you need to be able to duel/escape/ward

Golem is arguably more helpful for running away because you are more resilient to CC but it is inferior to wriggles for dueling. And wriggles comes with a ward albeit a shitty one.

I dunno. Again I have played a lot of jungle shyvanna and I always feel more effective with wriggles than with golem. I'm willing to accept that madreds bilgewater might be better but I do take advantage of the extra ward/life steal/single target damage that wriggles provides for 500 gold.

I used to do razor+spirit as you suggested but it just did not work out for me. The HP regen was not enough to sustain me and the extra clear speed was marginal and my combat stats and dueling ability were not where I wanted them to be.

On October 04 2013 02:57 Zdrastochye wrote:


So out of your priorities, Wriggles gives you some sustain, no ASPD, no MSPD, no HP. Next you get Bork for sustain, ASPD, and MSPD on demand, still having zero hp items. Would it not be more efficient to get Ancient Golem then Bork, because with that you have all of your "important" bases covered, without sacrificing clear time at all? It just seems like a no brainer, if you're going to delay bork until after yo uget 2k gold (which wriggles and ancient golem both cost) to cover 4 bases instead of just 3 with two items.

I'd argue further by saying that machete > cutlass > finish AG > finish bork might be an improvement on that build path, but I'm more interested in why you're arguing for something to cover less of your important points over something that covers more of them (not to mention with AG + bork you have both sustain while running around (hp regen) plus lifesteal while fighting (bork)).

On October 04 2013 03:44 MattBarry wrote:
If you really want to solo dragons you can just play Nunu and buy Spectral Wraith. I love that shit, get Spectral Wraith, Spirit Visage and a Chain vest and you can solo baron with consume maxed. So many games won back when I was in silver with the power of Nunu objective control