EPT[Patch 3.12] (j/k) Jinx General Discussion - Page 287
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:51 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Jax was seeing a lot of play in Korea (pub servers) for a long time, maybe not as much as in Solo queue but it really depends what slice of pub games you take. It wasn't like he wasn't played in either. Rengar in competitive play: + Show Spoiler + Irelia isn't exactly what I would call a pubstomp champ because she straight up loses to a lot of champs in lane but she's been seen and has won in S3 worldwide. Kass draws a lot of bans everywhere because he's just strong period. I'll take your word on AP Sion but that actually proves my point, doesn't it? I don't think Yi is good in pubs right now but if you think so you can have him as a point for pubstomp but not good in pro level. Amumu has fallen out of style in pub games too afaik but it's not like he totally wrecks low elo or anything. And that reminds me, you didn't post this, someone else did, but why was Nunu on the list of champs that pubstomp? He's not even good right now. I was just clarifying some of your posts on certain champions, not really disagreeing. Irelia is just shit in solo queue and pro play. Jax was a huge solo queue favorite in Korea before triforce patched, saw a few comfort picks in OGN pre patch, but there was a huge disparity in usage of play in comparison to solo queue and pro play. There are definitely champs that wreck solo queue, that don't work quite as well in competitive play imo. Seeing play in pro play is different than being effective in pro play. In solo queue certain picks are a lot more effective, than they are in pro, and that's an important distinction. If anyone wants to bring up validity of a champion it should be in context of pro play. If you want to talk about champion in solo queue context, it's more of a "how do I make this work in solo queue?" as opposed to "is this champion usable in solo queue?". | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:54 TheYango wrote: No, but that's not the only difference between solo queue and competitive play. The two major ones being coordination vs. selfishness and individual picks vs. coordinated drafting. Both of these have enormous impact on relative champion power. Perhaps at a very low level this is true but I'm certain that anywhere above platinum there's no champ that abuses pubs that isn't also strong in competitive play. For the record, there IS a huge skill disparity between plat and pro. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:57 ZigguratOfUr wrote: What are you supposed to do 20 minutes into a game, and the enemy Nasus has over 400 stacks on his Q? Is it basically GG at that point? Bring cleanse/buy QSS on the ADC and then have your team peel from him? Wither is dumb strong, but 400 stacks isn't doing much if Nasus can't reach a target. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Perhaps at a very low level this is true but I'm certain that anywhere above platinum there's no champ that abuses pubs that isn't also strong in competitive play. For the record, there IS a huge skill disparity between plat and pro. Poppy. Zekent was diamond 1 with poppy for a longggg time in season 2. Specialty champions are usually the ones that see quite a bit of solo queue success but much fewer pro play success. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote: I was just clarifying some of your posts on certain champions, not really disagreeing. Irelia is just shit in solo queue and pro play. Jax was a huge solo queue favorite in Korea before triforce patched, saw a few comfort picks in OGN pre patch, but there was a huge disparity in usage of play in comparison to solo queue and pro play. There are definitely champs that wreck solo queue, that don't work quite as well in competitive play imo. Seeing play in pro play is different than being effective in pro play. In solo queue certain picks are a lot more effective, than they are in pro, and that's an important distinction. If anyone wants to bring up validity of a champion it should be in context of pro play. If you want to talk about champion in solo queue context, it's more of a "how do I make this work in solo queue?" as opposed to "is this champion usable in solo queue?". I mean I get what you are saying but I also think that it's just not true. What champs are so strong in solo queue that they are considered top tier that aren't in pro games? That's what I'm asking and I would like examples. None provided so far meet my criteria except maybe, maaaaaaaaybe, Fiora and she doesn't really see much play. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote: . If you want to talk about champion in solo queue context, it's more of a "how do I make this work?" as opposed to "is this champion usable?". fixed for statement for every non pro player (Read: everyone) | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On October 23 2013 04:00 wei2coolman wrote: Poppy. Zekent was diamond 1 with poppy for a longggg time in season 2. Specialty champions are usually the ones that see quite a bit of solo queue success but much fewer pro play success. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/47gmndb.png) | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:11 obesechicken13 wrote: Who is this guy? Those clutch bulwarks against Lee and red buff were beautiful. He uses bulwark and is just like "lol stop tickling me. hah. tiny damage. Oh wait I'm healing" He was really accurate when it mattered too with the EQ combos. So this has inspired me to try out galio mid. Analyzing those games, I think he was running 21/8/1 with flash cd, minion damage reduction and 1 armor/mr with hplevel from defense, and standard ap offensive masteries with ignite one. Runes were probably ap quints, magic pen/hybrid pen reds, some kind of mana regen yellows with 3 scaling ap yellows, and flat mr blues. skill order was R>Q>W>E, and was building full tanky damage both games (all items had a tank component to them. He was also farming wraiths on CD. Going to try the above out and see how it goes (this was from the 2nd game he played, that wasn't vs a pure ad team). Full maths in spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Game 2 level 15 107 ad 276 ap 380 ms 1860 hp 985 mana atheneses/abyssal/doran/chain/mercs/mana pots 111 armor 154 mr 5/5/3/2 210 second ignite cd 285 second flash cd. Level 15 base galio stats hp: 1710 mana: 985 ap:0 + (15 from passive). AD:107 Armor:69.5 MR: 30 MS: 435 Base health = 1710+60.=1770. missing 90 hp. with +6 hp/level 6*15 = 90 = 1860. So gets the hp/level but not flat hp from defense. Armor: 69.5 + 40 = 109.5 probably 1 point in armor in defense tree? MR: 30+40+45+25 = 140. Missing 14 mr from runes/masteries. Mr blues + 1 point from defense tree? Given his cs, hes been farming wraiths alot, so damage reduction from minions from defense is likely. Running ignite mastery. AP: base ap = 77 from passive + 15 + 60+70 = 222. missing 54 ap. if he takes ap/level from offensive, +15. flat ap, +6. so that would be 243. Should be 263~ before offense, so + 20 ap from runes... 3 scaling ap/level yellows and 6 mana regen yellows? So: No movespeed quints. Takes the util 1 point for flash cd. doesnt take the 10% summoner reduction in util. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
I'm not talking about overarching solo queue themes though. your point was talking about champions that work in high solo queue, that don't work in pro play. I don't need to point out popular solo queue champs to counter that point. I only need one example of it working in high solo queue, that it doesn't work in pro play. Poppy is perfect example. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On October 23 2013 04:00 wei2coolman wrote: Poppy. Zekent was diamond 1 with poppy for a longggg time in season 2. Specialty champions are usually the ones that see quite a bit of solo queue success but much fewer pro play success. poppy has never been played in pro play that i can remember apart from doublelift who went 2-0 in s1 so lack of pick means we cant judge the success rate, unless a zekent shows up with her in pro player anytime soon not being picked doesnt mean they dont work, it just means nobody has bothered to put in the hours of practice to fit her into a teamcomp when they can just pick shen and press r | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Perhaps at a very low level this is true but I'm certain that anywhere above platinum there's no champ that abuses pubs that isn't also strong in competitive play. For the record, there IS a huge skill disparity between plat and pro. You've been given a big list of examples its just that you're treating "situational pick that occasionally suits a particular draft" as being the same thing as "viable in competitive play". Everything is viable in competitive play if you're looking at it that way, it's just that people haven't explored certain champs enough to develop teamcomps that suit them that are comfortable enough to draft when given the opportunity. That Xin an Tryndamere are pickable for certain drafts in competitive play doesn't invalidate the fact that there is a significant disparity in their power in competitive play vs. solo queue play. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
not since diamond was super popular for his jungle xin which did very well might i add untl they NERFED him for that reason On October 23 2013 04:11 oneofthem wrote: looking at champ stats, rammus has a 55% or above win rate at diamond. why is it not picked in competitive? rammus is very rarely played so it might be difficult to say how accurate the stats are, could just be not used to being against him while the only guys who play him are rammus mains | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On October 23 2013 04:07 wei2coolman wrote: I'm not talking about overarching solo queue themes though. your point was talking about champions that work in high solo queue, that don't work in pro play. I don't need to point out popular solo queue champs to counter that point. I only need one example of it working in high solo queue, that it doesn't work in pro play. Poppy is perfect example. I don't get why people think a pro level player winning with something in solo queue makes it 'viable'. Even in challenger they are effectively stomping lower elos, unless they're like... elementz... in which case they're eventually not gonna be in the pro scene. It's like if you played in a bronze game and won with some garbage like jungle liss and said that showed it was viable. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 23 2013 04:09 Slayer91 wrote: poppy has never been played in pro play that i can remember apart from doublelift who went 2-0 in s1 so lack of pick means we cant judge the success rate, unless a zekent shows up with her in pro player anytime soon not being picked doesnt mean they dont work, it just means nobody has bothered to put in the hours of practice to fit her into a teamcomp when they can just pick shen and press r That's pretty much the gap difference between solo queue and pro meta though. On October 23 2013 04:12 UniversalSnip wrote: I don't get why people think a pro level player winning with something in solo queue makes it 'viable'. Even in challenger they are effectively stomping lower elos, unless they're like... elementz... in which case they're eventually not gonna be in the pro scene. It's like if you played in a bronze game and won with some garbage like jungle liss and said that showed it was viable. I'm guessing you don't get my point? I'm saying poppy viable in solo queue, not so in pro play. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
why you would say poppys not viable in competitive play? or why would you say she IS viable in solo queue? diamond 1 doesnt mean anything, I can probably stay in diamond 1 playing only garen | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 23 2013 04:14 Slayer91 wrote: the "gap difference"? The gap between solo queue picks and effective pro game picks. If you can stay in high solo queue off of Garen over long # of games, isn't that proof that it's viable in solo queue? Lack of pick in pro play usually suggests very niche viability, or almost no-viability (though not always the case). | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On October 23 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote: That's pretty much the gap difference between solo queue and pro meta though. I'm guessing you don't get my point? I'm saying poppy viable in solo queue, not so in pro play. yah but GL finding someone the matchmaking actually functions with who plays her and does well. the only thing keeping the elo of tier one pro players and the very best pubstompers from skyrocketing indefinitely is queue times, they're literally coming down from a higher league to play. You can't say that implies anything about how poppy would do vs players of similar skill to themselves. If you wanna say something is 'viable' in solo queue it's completely worthless to state it in terms of pros vs pubbers. There are champs that are just bad in solo queue, the fact your favorite pro can play them vs some way less skilled guy and win doesn't mean anything. | ||
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