On October 23 2013 02:39 TheYango wrote: Cheep I don't agree with that. The fact that a strong player can make anything successful in a pub context does not invalidate discussion about what is more or less effective for winning pubs.
But that wasn't the discussion. I'm all for discussing TL Certified Pubstomp Strats (tm), but using solo q viability as a way of saying a character is "good" doesn't mean much.
To elaborate, there are two discussion topics:
1. How to win pubs. Perfectly fine. 2. What is viable/competitive/good in pubs. Not fine
Why? The latter is a moot point because the answer is everything.
If you ever want to have a discussion on viability, etc, it must only be in the context of top tier competitive play for the discussion to have any meaning.
What is the actual difference? Name me a champ that stomps pubs but isn't viable in competition?
Yi. Tryn. Rengar. Xin. Any jungler that can assasinate. Jungle Twitch. Because at the pro level everyone wards and everyone gets pink wards so ganks are much harder to do. You get more tower dives these days.
Jax(a month ago), Irelia. Anything that is horrible at 1v2 top.
Not Vayne. She gets put in 2v1's every chance people get at the pro level. Not Blue Ezreal. People don't do poke comps in solo queue. The fights just happen and suddenly you're doing half the damage of the enemy ADC. Not Nasus for quite a while. Any champion that wants to afk farm in solo queue will just end up letting their team get wiped in solo queue. He's probably strong enough now to get played in Pro games.
Any champion that likes to split push and duel. Fiora. Because at the pro level people react appropriately to split pushing by forcing fights and sending the right amount of people to stop it. And at the pro level fights don't just happen in the jungle because someone gets caught out that results in a team wipe.
Leblanc. Kassadin. Katarina. AP Sion. Old AP Yi. AP Nunu. Yorick. Snowbally champions that require playing against people that don't know how to play against it.
Nunu, Katarina, Yi. Champions that need coordinated teams that can stun them to counter them.
MF, Amumu. Any champion that can do the press R meta of solo queue.
What games are you playing where Master Yi stomps pubs?
I'm gonna go down your list in order: Tryndamere/Rengar/Xin: ALL SEEN IN COMPETITIVE PLAY Jungle Twitch: If this stomps you then whatever, you win this one Jax/Irelia: Both seen in competitive play. Jax was picked in the s3 finals. "Not Vayne": I don't understand what you are saying but Vayne is good in both pub and pro games "Not Blue Ezreal": I don't understand what you are saying because Triforce Ezreal and Blue Ezreal are seen in both Solo Q and pro games. Can you further elaborate what "not blue ezreal" and "not vayne" mean? And what the fuck is it really so bad in your elo that people don't have a concept of poking? Maybe the problem is the skill of everyone around you is low and thus you're biased about why things work so differently in solo q and pro games. It's not that different. "Not Nasus": I don't understand what you are saying/Nasus was in so many matches in the world finals it's not funny and he's really strong in pubs. Fiora: Okay, this is a good example. She shits on pubbers and hasn't been seen in competitive play. One champ so far. Leblanc/Kassadin: UHHHHHH Kass draws bans in solo q and in pro games. Leblanc shits on pubs and is a legit counterpick in pro level. Katarina: Two champs. Pubstompy and out of favor in pro scene recently. AP Sion: You play against much shittier pubs than I do. Old AP Yi: Saw competitive play and drew bans. AP Nunu: This was strong for a brief period in solo q but Nunu was seeing play as the top support at the time so it's hard to tell. Yorick: Sees competitive play, even from jungle. Nunu/Kat/Yi: I swear to god you just listed all 3 of those. MF/Amumu: Amumu still shows up in both pub and competitive and MF isn't exactly a hotly contested adc right now in either scene, but in her prime she was top pick for both solo q and pro games.
3 champs if you count AP Sion out of the 21 you named although you did name some of them two or three times. I disagree. There aren't many champs that totally pubstomp the shit out of people but aren't good at the pro level.
I've seen Yi do quite well in several solo queue games tbh.
I got wrecked mid by him once because I didn't realize how much new Alpha Strike would do to me (and he was running full armor pen). Just wasn't ready for it. I think if you're prepared for him, you can do fine, but it is solo queue.
5hit, come on, just because Trynd/Rengar/Xin are situationally drafted into teamcomps that suit them doesn't mean there isn't an enormous disparity between their solo queue and competitive effectiveness.
You can pick them much more haphazardly in solo queue because enemies are less coordinated and give you opportunites, whereas in competitive play they can only be picked by virtue of the draft suiting them. Every champ has situational drafts that suit them and over a large sample size, you will see games where they are appropriate. That doesn't mean they're strong in competitive play the way people usually mean it.
With regard to Jax and Nasus, he was clearly pointing to pre-Triforce, pre-Visage which is why he referred to them in past tense. Obviously their respective itemization buffs have changed this.
5HIT, I think you overstate your case a little bit. Tryndamere and Xin Zhao each appeared only once in S3 Worlds, Rengar, Leblanc, Irelia, Amumu, Katarina were never picked.
To me jungle Nasus is a good example of a pubstomp champion: he can take free dragons over and over in solo queue, a trick that obviously doesn't work against better teams.
AP sion is actually really fucking scary if you pick a grab support with him. Around the 10 min mark have the support start running around with an oracles and boots, while you have mobi's+double doran's and just force an incredible amount of map pressure because you need to be in lane for all of like 5 seconds to clear a wave.
Really, the statement "everything is viable in competitive" is just as true as "everything is viable in solo queue". Because honestly, every champ in the game has some conceivable draft where they will be an effective 4th/5th pick to close out a particular teamcomp; or conversely have a player that's so good at said champ to warrant a respect ban. But really that's almost never what people are referring to when they say a particular hero is or isn't strong in competitive play.
idea that everything is viable in pubs for a meaningful definition of viable is a joke. Of course anything is viable if you're a professional player or top pubstomper and better than everyone you play with no matter how high your rating gets, but if you are getting matched at your skill level and play a lot of poppy jungle or olaf or something you are going to lose elo until you pick up something decent.
On October 23 2013 02:39 TheYango wrote: Cheep I don't agree with that. The fact that a strong player can make anything successful in a pub context does not invalidate discussion about what is more or less effective for winning pubs.
But that wasn't the discussion. I'm all for discussing TL Certified Pubstomp Strats (tm), but using solo q viability as a way of saying a character is "good" doesn't mean much.
To elaborate, there are two discussion topics:
1. How to win pubs. Perfectly fine. 2. What is viable/competitive/good in pubs. Not fine
Why? The latter is a moot point because the answer is everything.
If you ever want to have a discussion on viability, etc, it must only be in the context of top tier competitive play for the discussion to have any meaning.
What is the actual difference? Name me a champ that stomps pubs but isn't viable in competition?
Yi. Tryn. Rengar. Xin. Any jungler that can assasinate. Jungle Twitch. Because at the pro level everyone wards and everyone gets pink wards so ganks are much harder to do. You get more tower dives these days.
Jax(a month ago), Irelia. Anything that is horrible at 1v2 top.
Not Vayne. She gets put in 2v1's every chance people get at the pro level. Not Blue Ezreal. People don't do poke comps in solo queue. The fights just happen and suddenly you're doing half the damage of the enemy ADC. Not Nasus for quite a while. Any champion that wants to afk farm in solo queue will just end up letting their team get wiped in solo queue. He's probably strong enough now to get played in Pro games.
Any champion that likes to split push and duel. Fiora. Because at the pro level people react appropriately to split pushing by forcing fights and sending the right amount of people to stop it. And at the pro level fights don't just happen in the jungle because someone gets caught out that results in a team wipe.
Leblanc. Kassadin. Katarina. AP Sion. Old AP Yi. AP Nunu. Yorick. Snowbally champions that require playing against people that don't know how to play against it.
Nunu, Katarina, Yi. Champions that need coordinated teams that can stun them to counter them.
MF, Amumu. Any champion that can do the press R meta of solo queue.
What games are you playing where Master Yi stomps pubs?
I'm gonna go down your list in order: Tryndamere/Rengar/Xin: ALL SEEN IN COMPETITIVE PLAY Jungle Twitch: If this stomps you then whatever, you win this one Jax/Irelia: Both seen in competitive play. Jax was picked in the s3 finals. "Not Vayne": I don't understand what you are saying but Vayne is good in both pub and pro games "Not Blue Ezreal": I don't understand what you are saying because Triforce Ezreal and Blue Ezreal are seen in both Solo Q and pro games. Can you further elaborate what "not blue ezreal" and "not vayne" mean? And what the fuck is it really so bad in your elo that people don't have a concept of poking? Maybe the problem is the skill of everyone around you is low and thus you're biased about why things work so differently in solo q and pro games. It's not that different. "Not Nasus": I don't understand what you are saying/Nasus was in so many matches in the world finals it's not funny and he's really strong in pubs. Fiora: Okay, this is a good example. She shits on pubbers and hasn't been seen in competitive play. One champ so far. Leblanc/Kassadin: UHHHHHH Kass draws bans in solo q and in pro games. Leblanc shits on pubs and is a legit counterpick in pro level. Katarina: Two champs. Pubstompy and out of favor in pro scene recently. AP Sion: You play against much shittier pubs than I do. Old AP Yi: Saw competitive play and drew bans. AP Nunu: This was strong for a brief period in solo q but Nunu was seeing play as the top support at the time so it's hard to tell. Yorick: Sees competitive play, even from jungle. Nunu/Kat/Yi: I swear to god you just listed all 3 of those. MF/Amumu: Amumu still shows up in both pub and competitive and MF isn't exactly a hotly contested adc right now in either scene, but in her prime she was top pick for both solo q and pro games.
3 champs if you count AP Sion out of the 21 you named although you did name some of them two or three times. I disagree. There aren't many champs that totally pubstomp the shit out of people but aren't good at the pro level.
Jax was seeing a lot more play in solo queue in comparison to pro scene (before tons of damage patch). Rengar pretty much only saw pro play from Westrice, afaik. Irelia shown up once in CLG vs VES, where CLG went triple AD and lost. Kass draws a lot of bans in low Elo play, not quite as much higher up. AP Sion sees quite a bit of play in China recently. Yi still yolo queue carries pretty hard imo, he's a beast in solo queue. But doesn't see that much play in solo q. Amumu has fallen out of style in pro play pretty hard as of recent, he's still a semi-popular jungle pick in solo queue though.
On October 23 2013 03:35 GrandInquisitor wrote: 5HIT, I think you overstate your case a little bit. Tryndamere and Xin Zhao each appeared only once in S3 Worlds, Rengar, Leblanc, Irelia, Amumu, Katarina were never picked.
To me jungle Nasus is a good example of a pubstomp champion: he can take free dragons over and over in solo queue, a trick that obviously doesn't work against better teams.
yeah but what good is free dragons when enemy lee sin has 10 kills and you can't gank nearly as well
every argument here is totally inane. Rengar/xin/trynd can "stomp" and are also useless if they fall behind. Nasus can only afk farm early game, but then he rapes 1v5 later.
lots more champs appear in solo q because competitive players have to stick to a fixed pool of champs that they know and play a lot and thus people stick to a small range of versatile champs and more niche champs need a buff or some reason to be picked up over a champ that can do most of the same things if not as good and also has escapes and things that let you avoid ganks so you can lane against world class junglers.
On October 23 2013 03:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I just honestly don't think that Riot has made a champ that profits off of stupidity but is countered by intelligence.
On October 23 2013 03:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I just honestly don't think that Riot has made a champ that profits off of stupidity but is countered by intelligence.
Heimer?
If you let him shove all day long and poke your own mid down, he is powerful. If you look at him wrong, he falls over dead. Just have to be smart enough to send a glare his way.
but then you have heimer players and comps avoid engages and the other team has to try to engage as hard as possible and its noting to do with stupidity/intelligence rather "good plays are good" and "bad plays are bad"
edit: vayne bad in solo queue? what? blue ez? like last month it was all everyone ever did. Nasus is like free elo at all ranges atm
On October 23 2013 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: but then you have heimer players and comps avoid engages and the other team has to try to engage as hard as possible and its noting to do with stupidity/intelligence rather "good plays are good" and "bad plays are bad"
On October 23 2013 03:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I just honestly don't think that Riot has made a champ that profits off of stupidity but is countered by intelligence.
Singed sort of fits.
Should I do this on any other champion? No? FWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
i mean try to look at solo q win rates and competitive win rates and find a large disparity or we can just disregard this argument as total horseshit because it has no grounds other than personal experience atm (with regards to the "stomps solo q" side)
i mean everything stomps solo q if you're good enough just like a good team stomps a bad team or insec carrying with jungle zed ( wat)
On October 23 2013 03:42 wei2coolman wrote: Jax was seeing a lot more play in solo queue in comparison to pro scene (before tons of damage patch). Rengar pretty much only saw pro play from Westrice, afaik. Irelia shown up once in CLG vs VES, where CLG went triple AD and lost. Kass draws a lot of bans in low Elo play, not quite as much higher up. AP Sion sees quite a bit of play in China recently. Yi still yolo queue carries pretty hard imo, he's a beast in solo queue. But doesn't see that much play in solo q. Amumu has fallen out of style in pro play pretty hard as of recent, he's still a semi-popular jungle pick in solo queue though.
Jax was seeing a lot of play in Korea (pub servers) for a long time, maybe not as much as in Solo queue but it really depends what slice of pub games you take. It wasn't like he wasn't played in either.
Rengar in competitive play:
Irelia isn't exactly what I would call a pubstomp champ because she straight up loses to a lot of champs in lane but she's been seen and has won in S3 worldwide.
Kass draws a lot of bans everywhere because he's just strong period.
I'll take your word on AP Sion but that actually proves my point, doesn't it?
I don't think Yi is good in pubs right now but if you think so you can have him as a point for pubstomp but not good in pro level.
Amumu has fallen out of style in pub games too afaik but it's not like he totally wrecks low elo or anything.
And that reminds me, you didn't post this, someone else did, but why was Nunu on the list of champs that pubstomp? He's not even good right now.
with regards to fiora the reason she isn't played is probably because she is a generic assassin and she doesn't have an escape so everyone just plays zed instead fioras W is such a pointless spell mid/lategame too i think they need to add something to it (sometimes decent against fed ads but you still get raped by cc and you never get to 1v1 them so who cares)
On October 23 2013 03:42 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I just honestly don't think that Riot has made a champ that profits off of stupidity but is countered by intelligence.
No, but that's not the only difference between solo queue and competitive play. The two major ones being coordination vs. selfishness and individual picks vs. coordinated drafting. Both of these have enormous impact on relative champion power.
EPT
