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On October 23 2013 02:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 01:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 23 2013 01:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On October 23 2013 01:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 23 2013 01:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Galio is severely limited by his Flash CD, more so than many other heroes. If you're relying on him purely for initiation, sure. But he's similar to Annie in this regard. In the current meta, everyone is diving your squishies anyway. Why not pick someone who won't blow up immediately, and at the same time can counter initiate and protect your AD carry? Also, he just has tons of utility and poke with Q and E (although somewhat mana dependent - solved by chalice). Is he top tier? No. But he's certainly better than the number of people who play him would suggest. Counter initiation on Galio is a huge waste, you want to flash in and gib their squishies; everyone diving has a shitton of tenacity anyways and you're barely gonna touch them. If you're playing mid Galio you're trying to be a damage threat on top of utility, you can't just settle for ulting a couple of tanky divers in most of the situations, unless your AD magically got legendarily fed on his own before team fights started. On October 23 2013 01:52 Seuss wrote:
If you have your Flash, go for that Flash ult.
If you don't have your Flash, sitting on top of your carry so when Fizz/Zed/et al go for them they have an additional 90 Armor/MR, a speed boost, slowed divers, and a patient taunt is acceptable. Exactly. Obviously Flash ult is the ideal situation. Same deal with Annie - flash tibbers for instagib carry is ideal, but not always necessarily available. If you're ulting to counter initiate, you've now created a zone that their back line can't walk through. This forces them to wait or to blow CC on you (which is CC that isn't being used on your carry). You're tanky enough to withstand this, and if your back line + your ult can do enough to their divers, then you can pursue their back line. Saying Galio is completely reliant on flash is just flat wrong. They can jus twalk through your taunt since eeryone diving probably has like 50% tenacity it doesn't reapply so realistically you're an ult bot whose ult cc's for 1s ~_~
Ok, we can keep being thick headed and ignore everything else that Galio does or how team fights actually work.
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Galio doesnt need his ult to peel bulwark is fucking nasty esp for those squishy ADs with barely any MR / armor beyond auras and base stats
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly "my ultimate is just going to be scary and zone 3-4 people but not actually do anything to them" is not really a compelling argument for Flash-less ults being OK, lol.
On October 23 2013 02:24 Navi wrote:
Galio doesnt need his ult to peel bulwark is fucking nasty esp for those squishy ADs with barely any MR / armor beyond auras and base stats
This is true, but not the discussion at hand. A defensive ult that just hits 1-2 diving heroes and not actually any of the high value targets due to lack of Flash is flat out not enough effectiveness to be acceptable.
It IS good when one of those divers IS the high value hero, but that's variable based on their draft.
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On October 23 2013 02:24 TheYango wrote:
Honestly "my ultimate is just going to be scary and zone 3-4 people but not actually do anything to them" is not really a compelling argument for Flash-less ults being OK, lol.
Isn't that what fizz ult does when it misses? Tehehehehe.
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On October 23 2013 02:24 TheYango wrote:Honestly "my ultimate is just going to be scary and zone 3-4 people but not actually do anything to them" is not really a compelling argument for Flash-less ults being OK, lol. Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:24 Navi wrote:
Galio doesnt need his ult to peel bulwark is fucking nasty esp for those squishy ADs with barely any MR / armor beyond auras and base stats This is true, but not the discussion at hand. A defensive ult that just hits 1-2 diving heroes and not actually any of the high value targets due to lack of Flash is flat out not enough effectiveness to be acceptable. It IS good when one of those divers IS the high value hero, but that's variable based on their draft.
I'm advocating the fact that Galio doesn't need flash to be a useful hero. Ults for peels are an option.
And if teams are diving so hard that they are fully committing, you can zone their back line with poke and threat of ult while protecting carry with Bulwark (as Navi said) because you're tanky enough to do that. Sure you'll likely get kited, but that's worth if your carries stay alive while you zone 2 or 3 and let your team take care of their divers.
It's obviously all situational, but people dismissing a champ entirely because of a lack of flash is just foolish, especially in a meta where everyone is diving the fuck out of your carries.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean it depends what you're trying to get at by "a useful hero". He doesn't drop to zero effectiveness without Flash, no, but the fact that his teamfight ability takes a far bigger hit from having Flash down than the majority of heroes in the game isn't really debatable, and it's a timing that stronger teams will exploit when possible.
This doesn't mean it's possible to exploit that timing weakness 100% of the time, but it IS a consideration when drafting the hero, among other things. I do agree that it's *overstated* as the reason not to pick him (it goes hand in hand with a lot of other things). but you also can't act like it's irrelevant because he retains some fighting ability when Flash is down. It is relevant and it is significant.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:31 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:24 TheYango wrote:Honestly "my ultimate is just going to be scary and zone 3-4 people but not actually do anything to them" is not really a compelling argument for Flash-less ults being OK, lol. On October 23 2013 02:24 Navi wrote:
Galio doesnt need his ult to peel bulwark is fucking nasty esp for those squishy ADs with barely any MR / armor beyond auras and base stats This is true, but not the discussion at hand. A defensive ult that just hits 1-2 diving heroes and not actually any of the high value targets due to lack of Flash is flat out not enough effectiveness to be acceptable. It IS good when one of those divers IS the high value hero, but that's variable based on their draft. I'm advocating the fact that Galio doesn't need flash to be a useful hero. Ults for peels are an option. And if teams are diving so hard that they are fully committing, you can zone their back line with poke and threat of ult while protecting carry with Bulwark (as Navi said) because you're tanky enough to do that. Sure you'll likely get kited, but that's worth if your carries stay alive while you zone 2 or 3 and let your team take care of their divers. It's obviously all situational, but people dismissing a champ entirely because of a lack of flash is just foolish, especially in a meta where everyone is diving the fuck out of your carries.
essentially what you're advocating in that scenario is picking galio tp provide 4s of mr/armor for your carry, throw an EQ out at their backline, and then holding the ult to maybe ult 1-2 divers
these all sound great in vaccum but none of these really justifies picking galio over a host of other options while being much less flash reliant. the only thing that matters is comparing to other options available, and right now, galio is not worth picking in 99 out of 100 games
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On October 23 2013 02:33 TheYango wrote:
I mean it depends what you're trying to get at by "a useful hero". He doesn't drop to zero effectiveness without Flash, no, but the fact that his teamfight ability takes a far bigger hit from having Flash down than the majority of heroes in the game isn't really debatable, and it's a timing that stronger teams will exploit when possible.
Agreed.
As I said, he's not top tier, but still strong. Competitive settings always differ.
I'm more arguing for solo queue side of things because that's my experience and the setting that the vast majority of players should actually be concerned about when considering champs for viability.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:33 TheYango wrote:
I mean it depends what you're trying to get at by "a useful hero". He doesn't drop to zero effectiveness without Flash, no, but the fact that his teamfight ability takes a far bigger hit from having Flash down than the majority of heroes in the game isn't really debatable, and it's a timing that stronger teams will exploit when possible. Agreed. As I said, he's not top tier, but still strong. Competitive settings always differ. I'm more arguing for solo queue side of things because that's my experience and the setting that the vast majority of players should actually be concerned about when considering champs for viability.
we should never ever ever
+ Show Spoiler +ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever
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Jesus Christ TL hates champs that aren't pro-verified in the ultrameta of now
Galio isn't as reliant on flash as you guys think, he does a fine job of nuking and even ulting without it
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Everything is viable in soloq that doesn't really mean much.
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On October 23 2013 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 23 2013 02:33 TheYango wrote:
I mean it depends what you're trying to get at by "a useful hero". He doesn't drop to zero effectiveness without Flash, no, but the fact that his teamfight ability takes a far bigger hit from having Flash down than the majority of heroes in the game isn't really debatable, and it's a timing that stronger teams will exploit when possible. Agreed. As I said, he's not top tier, but still strong. Competitive settings always differ. I'm more arguing for solo queue side of things because that's my experience and the setting that the vast majority of players should actually be concerned about when considering champs for viability. we should never ever ever + Show Spoiler +ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever use solo q as a metric for anything because everything works in solo q lol, there is literally 0 point to "discussing" it
k, well, I'm done arguing it because I've said all I have to say
no sense driving my face into a wall
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United States47024 Posts
Cheep I don't agree with that. The fact that a strong player can make anything successful in a pub context does not invalidate discussion about what is more or less effective for winning pubs.
In fact, it's probably more relevant than what wins pro games since nobody here plays pro games while everyone plays pubs.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:39 TheYango wrote:
Cheep I don't agree with that. The fact that a strong player can make anything successful in a pub context does not invalidate discussion about what is more or less effective for winning pubs.
But that wasn't the discussion. I'm all for discussing TL Certified Pubstomp Strats (tm), but using solo q viability as a way of saying a character is "good" doesn't mean much.
To elaborate, there are two discussion topics:
1. How to win pubs. Perfectly fine.
2. What is viable/competitive/good in pubs. Not fine
Why? The latter is a moot point because the answer is everything.
If you ever want to have a discussion on viability, etc, it must only be in the context of top tier competitive play for the discussion to have any meaning.
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On October 23 2013 02:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Jesus Christ TL hates champs that aren't pro-verified in the ultrameta of now
Galio isn't as reliant on flash as you guys think, he does a fine job of nuking and even ulting without it
It's like annie though. She's decent without it, but unless you have flash, it doesn't quite give you that power.
I wonder if they'd be willing to change his ulti to just pushback on CC for the first instance or two. That'd go a long way to making him viable against teams with low amounts of CC.
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Baa?21243 Posts
If you're so obsessed with comparing Galio to Annie, might as well just think about playing Galio support instead of giving him mid farm. Galio support does all the things you want him to do - peel in the backline, utility with QE, and it's not like the armor/MR on bulwark scales with AP ~_~
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United States47024 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Galio isn't as reliant on flash as you guys think, he does a fine job of nuking and even ulting without it
I mean, "not useless without Flash" is not good enough in a lot of scenarios that come up in close games. The game doesn't become 4v5 when your Flash is down, but if the game is reasonably close, there will be fights that you could win with Flash but can't win with it down and therefore have to give up something because of it. That's true of any hero, but again, the difference in power between Flash up Galio and Flash down Galio is far more than most others.
On October 23 2013 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
If you're so obsessed with comparing Galio to Annie, might as well just think about playing Galio support instead of giving him mid farm. Galio support does all the things you want him to do - peel in the backline, utility with QE, and it's not like the armor/MR on bulwark scales with AP ~_~
TBH if Galio could jungle, his ideal farm priority fits the jungle the best. Or 1v2 with a jungler that has higher midgame farm priority than him.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Galio isn't as reliant on flash as you guys think, he does a fine job of nuking and even ulting without it I mean, "not useless without Flash" is not good enough in a lot of scenarios that come up in close games. The game doesn't become 4v5 when your Flash is down, but if the game is reasonably close, there will be fights that you could win with Flash but can't win with it down and therefore have to give up something because of it. That's true of any hero, but again, the difference in power between Flash up Galio and Flash down Galio is far more than most others. Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
If you're so obsessed with comparing Galio to Annie, might as well just think about playing Galio support instead of giving him mid farm. Galio support does all the things you want him to do - peel in the backline, utility with QE, and it's not like the armor/MR on bulwark scales with AP ~_~ TBH if Galio could jungle, his ideal farm priority fits the jungle the best. Or 1v2 with a jungler that has higher midgame farm priority than him.
CLG kinda did that waaaay back when Hotshot just built tanky solo top Galio and then ceded farm and grouped with team when laning ended.
Galio 1v2 is too garbage imo, he needs solid early items before he can group and cede farm, but he won't be able to get any of it in a 1v2 and his waveclear without ap is pretty poor and unsustainble without a mana item
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On October 22 2013 20:03 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 18:58 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And on the topic of Morgana, I think she's in a fine spot where she is and fuck off don't change her unless you're adding damage or reducing cooldowns.
The only champ I really lose lane to is Malzahar and the only other matchup I have a hard time with is Orianna, maaaaaybe Diana. She's really not as bad as people make her out to be. Her sustain is crazy and her ult is strong and as much as she might be reliant on hitting Q, it is a really strong spell on a reasonable cooldown. It's also the exact same missile speed as Amumu bandage so it's not THAT hard to hit.
I do draw target bans in inhouses with her as well. Not that it makes her a better champ, but I seriously think she's fine up until pro level. How do you play versus Syndra? I tend to get shut down, and my shield is like a neglect-able factor that she just bursts through like cake.
Double Dring -> rush abyssal
9/0/21
WQWEWR R>W>Q>E
keep pooling minions to spellvamp and keep your hp high, don't be aggressive when her cooldowns are all up (or in general, really), stalemate the lane unless your jungler shows up or you start being able to harass her down with W
you play at a higher level than i do, but i honestly feel like this matchup is in Morg's favor because of how safe she is against a champ that's reliant on bullying to snowball and how easy it is to catch them off guard. If you land bind you can flash ult and shield yourself for a pretty easy kill post-6.
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On October 23 2013 02:50 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 02:46 TheYango wrote:On October 23 2013 02:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Galio isn't as reliant on flash as you guys think, he does a fine job of nuking and even ulting without it I mean, "not useless without Flash" is not good enough in a lot of scenarios that come up in close games. The game doesn't become 4v5 when your Flash is down, but if the game is reasonably close, there will be fights that you could win with Flash but can't win with it down and therefore have to give up something because of it. That's true of any hero, but again, the difference in power between Flash up Galio and Flash down Galio is far more than most others. On October 23 2013 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
If you're so obsessed with comparing Galio to Annie, might as well just think about playing Galio support instead of giving him mid farm. Galio support does all the things you want him to do - peel in the backline, utility with QE, and it's not like the armor/MR on bulwark scales with AP ~_~ TBH if Galio could jungle, his ideal farm priority fits the jungle the best. Or 1v2 with a jungler that has higher midgame farm priority than him. CLG kinda did that waaaay back when Hotshot just built tanky solo top Galio and then ceded farm and grouped with team when laning ended. Galio 1v2 is too garbage imo, he needs solid early items before he can group and cede farm, but he won't be able to get any of it in a 1v2 and his waveclear without ap is pretty poor and unsustainble without a mana item
Galio support. Nevar forget.
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EPT
