EPT[Patch 3.11] General Discussion - Page 223
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I understand your point obviously there is no way to actually know definitively. Reguardless my main point was I don't think top end balance is a problem in League, if you say I'm wrong on Wisp that's fine with me, outsiders prospective it looks dubious at best, but I'm not going to pretend to be a DOTA expert | ||
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ProV1
United States980 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2013 02:44 Slusher wrote: I was just going off of the final day of groups when Liquid needed to win 1 game, Godz straight up said Liquid had gotten into this position because chinese teams were giving them Wisp, and all iG needed to do was ban Wisp to 2-0, and that is exactly what happened. Yeah I flat out don't agree with that, lol. On September 22 2013 02:44 Slusher wrote: I understand your point obviously there is no way to actually know definitively. Reguardless my main point was I don't think top end balance is a problem in League, if you say I'm wrong on Wisp that's fine with me, outsiders prospective it looks dubious at best, but I'm not going to pretend to be a DOTA expert Balance in general is a shitty discussion for MOBAs is because fundamentally the way the game works, the champ pool is "fair" to both teams. From a competitive standpoint "balance" in the way we understand it from Starcraft is irrelevant because there's no analogue to race choice where a player makes a choice early on in their time with the game that affects their gameplay experience forevermore. The expectation we have of competitive players is that they will be able to play everything required of them (even though that's often unrealistic). The only forms of balance in the RTS sense relevant to MOBAs is 1st pick/2nd pick and blue side/purple side. Everything else other than that is only a matter of "What makes the game fun to watch/play?" and on this point Riot and Valve have vastly differing views on what makes a MOBA game fun to watch/play. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 22 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote: Yeah I flat out don't agree with that, lol. Maybe he's remembering wrong since Liquid is the only team I think that ever got wisp because their wisp play just wasn't feared. Even western teams gave liquid wisp if I recall. It obviously hurt them against other teams but that was in no way their biggest fault at TI3. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
Proportion of the pool picked is the wrong way to measure this, and the number of bans doesn't matter. Consider game Z. Z has only 18 heroes. Ten are picked in every competitive match and eight are never used. Z appears to have excellent balance because it has a 55% pick rate in it's pool (PR). Now suppose Z tournaments begin giving two bans to each team. Not counting them PR remains 55%, and counting them it goes up to 66%. However, clearly nothing has changed. Suppose each team receives four bans: without, PR = 0.55, with, PR = 1. We can extrapolate the other way, too. Suppose game W has three thousand champions. If their world series has one hundred games and no team ever picks a hero that has been previously picked, the maximum number of champions that can be picked is one thousand, which gives them a miserable PR of 0.33. This also exposes another problem, which is that PR varies wildly depending on the length of the tournament. Even PR per game suffers from this because the increase in PR is unlikely to be linear, so shorter tournaments will end up with higher PR per game. So you can see trying to use any of these as simple factors results in a very poor understanding of how many champions are actually played. There is one and probably only one measure that excludes every distorting factor, which is: what is the rate of change of the probability, with each game, of a champion being picked or banned that has never been picked or banned before in this tournament? Notice how this gives Z a terrible rating in all our scenarios and W a perfect one. To figure this out, you'd want to make a graph like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CUxBGp3.png) Then you'd create a function that fits our extremely convenient curve, and take the derivative of it, which would result in a function that essentially encodes the information we're looking for. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
You've got to understand, I am an idiot. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On September 22 2013 03:20 Ketara wrote: Yeah I didn't understand Snips post even a little bit. What? You've got to understand, I am an idiot. USnip says that total pick % out of champion pool is a flawed metric for He proposes we look at the pick per day of the data and use that to determine to growth rate of new picks and use that as the standard metric | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I just wanted to spend like, 20 minutes on this. But that sounds interesting too! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 22 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote: Yeah I flat out don't agree with that, lol. Balance in general is a shitty discussion for MOBAs is because fundamentally the way the game works, the champ pool is "fair" to both teams. From a competitive standpoint "balance" in the way we understand it from Starcraft is irrelevant because there's no analogue to race choice where a player makes a choice early on in their time with the game that affects their gameplay experience forevermore. The expectation we have of competitive players is that they will be able to play everything required of them (even though that's often unrealistic). The only forms of balance in the RTS sense relevant to MOBAs is 1st pick/2nd pick and blue side/purple side. Everything else other than that is only a matter of "What makes the game fun to watch/play?" and on this point Riot and Valve have vastly differing views on what makes a MOBA game fun to watch/play. Tell that to Dade. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
On September 22 2013 02:50 ProV1 wrote: Who is goldporo1? Does any1 know? if you're talking about the guy that hit challenger first with mostly akali, that's Zorozero but LD has a few goldporo1-5, so I don't know if you just ask because you met said person in soloQ. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Dade's actually proof of what I mean. As soon as he did poorly everyone was far quicker to fault him for not learning the new strong champs in a short span of time rather than considering the rapidly changing pool of strong mid laners to be unfair to him. By and large, people don't consider it "unfair" for champ balance to shift one way or another. They only care insofar as seeing one champ too often makes playing/watching more boring. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On September 22 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote: @USnip, I think the assumption made by Ketara going in is that many of those distorting factors tend to be pretty similar across both games--e.g. the size of the champ pool is close enough for a rough estimate to be possible. that seems like a very weak assumption to me. for one thing, the fact the lol pool is 10% larger than the dota pool doesn't seem all that small to me. For another, the number of games played remains a significant distorting factor. I mean, damn, look at how many games there were in TI3, it's crazy. Also, in a larger sense, it's just not a very good way to analyze data to use only a few points from a large collection - there's a lot of information loss. It's like when you have a pile of numbers and you just take the average: the result you present is only dependent on two pieces of info, so it's really distorted, and even if you point out that it is... it still isn't telling you anything. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 22 2013 03:30 TheYango wrote: Dade's actually proof of what I mean. As soon as he did poorly everyone was far quicker to fault him for not learning the new strong champs in a short span of time rather than considering the rapidly changing pool of strong mid laners to be unfair to him. By and large, people don't consider it "unfair" for champ balance to shift one way or another. They only care insofar as seeing one champ too often makes playing/watching more boring. I'm just saying that, I don't agree with the premise that all mob a balance is "fair". | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On September 22 2013 02:40 Vonthin wrote: Well I was planning on leveling a smurf on NA but why not do it on EU if the ping is the same, want to see if soloq is harder like people say it is. Also one of my friends who I regularly play with moved to London recently for his last 2 years of Uni and has no one to play with Euw soloq is pretty much same as na.You'll probably get flamed more but that is about it.Maybe people troll slightly less at highest level but still the difference is really small. | ||
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