EPTOn September 18 2013 08:47 miicah wrote:
Lol for some reason I have always assumed you are montechristo and I was confused when you said that. I guess Montes guide to ARAMs threw me off lol
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 07:19 Seuss wrote:
I don't follow the Korean scene as much as I should, so anything people haven't been raving about (e.g. Shyvana, Mundo) I'm not necessarily going to know about.
Which is part of why I went ahead and made a list. When you throw down it makes it easier for people to correct you. We've seen a few good suggestions for what I may have missed, but I'm not convinced that we'll see as many champions as CSheep anticipates.
I'm pretty sure I've made the "LoL came out at just the right time" point before, but it's possibly something Yango and I share.
I'm looking for the post now, but it's hard to find the right keywords.
On September 17 2013 06:40 cLutZ wrote:
Why are you surprised by Singed? Korea has been picking him into Shen for quite some time. Ryze is a surprise, mostly because he is bad, and was picked as an Ahri "counter", which he doesn't do anymore because of the range nerf.
Edit: Also I feel like more people should pick Kog into Vayne, its a pretty nice play if you can swing it.
On September 17 2013 03:42 Seuss wrote:
You're correct that the Trinity Force buff hasn't helped anything, but "At one point" is a tricky phrase. We saw Draven played in the LCS "at one point", but the chances of him appearing at Worlds were and are practically nil. The same can be said for many other champions who were popular picks in the LCS "at one point".
What matters is the diversity that exists now, and generally speaking I don't think it's particularly great. Here are all the picks for each role so far:
I've bolded those that surprised me. Out of a pool of 115 champions we've seen a total of 36, with 5 big surprises. Granted, that's only day 1, but I doubt that number is going to dramatically expand going forward. By the time Worlds is over I expect we'll see another 19 champions at most, leaving us at less than half of the available pool (which excludes Lucian).
It's not a complete diversity disaster, but it could be better.
On September 17 2013 02:55 Don_Julio wrote:
The best part about Season 3 has been the diversified champion pool for adcs. Almost every champion that fits the role has been played in the LCS at one point.
The overbuff of Triforce completely ruined that aspect just at the right moment for Worlds. Sad.
The best part about Season 3 has been the diversified champion pool for adcs. Almost every champion that fits the role has been played in the LCS at one point.
The overbuff of Triforce completely ruined that aspect just at the right moment for Worlds. Sad.
You're correct that the Trinity Force buff hasn't helped anything, but "At one point" is a tricky phrase. We saw Draven played in the LCS "at one point", but the chances of him appearing at Worlds were and are practically nil. The same can be said for many other champions who were popular picks in the LCS "at one point".
What matters is the diversity that exists now, and generally speaking I don't think it's particularly great. Here are all the picks for each role so far:
- Top: Kennen, Malphite, Nasus, Renekton, Rumble, Shen, Singed, Yorick, Zac
- Jungle: Aatrox, Elise, Evelynn, Jarvan, Lee Sin, Nocturne, Vi
- Mid: Ahri, Diana, Gragas, Fizz, Lissandra, Orianna, Swain, Ryze, Zed
- ADC: Caitlyn, Corki, Ezreal, Kog'maw, Vayne
- Support: Fiddlesticks, Leona, Nami, Thresh, Sona, Zyra
I've bolded those that surprised me. Out of a pool of 115 champions we've seen a total of 36, with 5 big surprises. Granted, that's only day 1, but I doubt that number is going to dramatically expand going forward. By the time Worlds is over I expect we'll see another 19 champions at most, leaving us at less than half of the available pool (which excludes Lucian).
It's not a complete diversity disaster, but it could be better.
Why are you surprised by Singed? Korea has been picking him into Shen for quite some time. Ryze is a surprise, mostly because he is bad, and was picked as an Ahri "counter", which he doesn't do anymore because of the range nerf.
Edit: Also I feel like more people should pick Kog into Vayne, its a pretty nice play if you can swing it.
I don't follow the Korean scene as much as I should, so anything people haven't been raving about (e.g. Shyvana, Mundo) I'm not necessarily going to know about.
Which is part of why I went ahead and made a list. When you throw down it makes it easier for people to correct you. We've seen a few good suggestions for what I may have missed, but I'm not convinced that we'll see as many champions as CSheep anticipates.
On September 17 2013 07:03 thenexusp wrote:
That's the thing, though. Just subtracting 2 from the blue minions probably isn't the right fix, and it was fixes like that which was what got Riot's codebase into this situation in the first place.
Regarding deadlines, Yango (I think) has written posts about the fortuitous timing of LoL's release - back when online gaming was just emerging, F2P models hadn't really been developed, and DotA2 was still a little ways off from being released. If LoL was released 6 months or a year later it is very possible that it would not enjoy nearly as much success as it does today. Hitting those deadlines generally means compromising on code quality. Now that LoL is a more mature game it makes sense to spend the time to clean up the mess that was made when they were trying to get a product out the door as soon as possible.
In school they teach you to make sure your code stays clean, etc. etc.. Real life is a different bitch. You can have the best code in the world and that doesn't matter if DotA2 or HoN beats you to the punch.
There is a concept in the tech world known as "technical debt" - you can take on technical debt by hacking together quick fixes and messy code, which will in the short term speed up the development process but in the long term will cause strange bugs and slow down the development process. You want to avoid technical debt if possible, but just like how a new business will take out loans to jump start their business, sometimes (nearly always) a startup tech company will take on technical debt to release their product (and start making money) faster.
On September 17 2013 06:48 Djin)ftw( wrote:
And this is EXACTLY what I think, too. One of the first things I learned about programming is that if you encounter a bug and do not fix it properly, in the end you will pay for it because the code will get messier and it will take more and more time to understand what is going on.
So with all due respect, I'd say the programmers are quite incompetent.
I mean, I can absolutely understand that there are deadlines, that the servers are supposed to be up and running 24/7, that all the kids out there get super angry super fast if an unwanted feature in your software is being discovered.. and thats all fine, I'd probably do the same thing. That being said, I would have expected other people do to better than me.
Seriously, if one or more creeps for some unknown reason grant +2EXP compared to purple side minions, that should be one of the easiest fixes imaginable. So if it takes like 2 or 3 days to get this straight, holy moly.
bushes are broken
"The biggest thing you didn't cover is that vision is not a 'point to point' system; vision is based on character size. This is so a giant cho doesn't suddenly appear half way around a corner, and also so cho can 'see around' that corner a little bit. Unfortunately the algorithm doing that check isn't very good (it's what leads to the 'I can see them, they can't see me' bug) so I'm rewriting it. Otherwise you're pretty on target."
Ah well. I guess Dota2 has a lot of bugs too.
On September 17 2013 05:29 thenexusp wrote:
It's almost certainly not a case of just a couple of numbers being wrong, as that would be fixed really easily. The programmer at Riot was probably staring at the data and seeing something like
BLUE_MINION_BASE_XP = 35
PURPLE_MINION_BASE_XP = 35
and wondering why the blue minions were giving 37 XP instead. He could just change BLUE_MINION_BASE_XP to 33 to "fix" the problem, but that's only going to cause problems down the line when the real bug gets accidentally fixed, and suddenly the blue minions are giving 2 less XP than normal.
Going through the whole code and finding the root of the problem takes considerably more time. Also, Riot programmers aren't stupid, and the root bug was probably introduced while trying to fix some other bug. So the root bug gets fixed, and the original bug breaks again, and they have to go back and fix the first bug the right way, and not in a way that causes blue minions to give extra XP.
Back in the alpha days of Riot, if they came across a weird bug like this a couple days before release, they probably would have just set the blue minion XP to 2 lower to quickly fix the problem since releasing quickly is more important than getting the code right. Now they're paying for all these quick fixes with obscure bugs that come up and take a lot longer to fix than if the same bugs came up on a "clean" code base.
On September 17 2013 05:14 Djin)ftw( wrote:
Has anyone read about the blue side xp feature? link
A hotfix is being applied right now. What strikes me as odd is the following:
"We understand that this problem is a potentially significant issue. When we attempted a solution on Wednesday, additional complications arose. Currently we have a confirmed fix for the bug, but given that server stability is of high importance to us, deploying it over the weekend just isn’t viable. We will be getting this out as soon as possible on Monday. "
I mean, my programming skills are low, maybe even more so than my LoL skillZ. But shouldn't that just be something like
creep.type.xp = x - 2;
And that's it? Like, sometimes I really really REALLY want to see the source code. Holy moly
Has anyone read about the blue side xp feature? link
A hotfix is being applied right now. What strikes me as odd is the following:
"We understand that this problem is a potentially significant issue. When we attempted a solution on Wednesday, additional complications arose. Currently we have a confirmed fix for the bug, but given that server stability is of high importance to us, deploying it over the weekend just isn’t viable. We will be getting this out as soon as possible on Monday. "
I mean, my programming skills are low, maybe even more so than my LoL skillZ. But shouldn't that just be something like
creep.type.xp = x - 2;
And that's it? Like, sometimes I really really REALLY want to see the source code. Holy moly
It's almost certainly not a case of just a couple of numbers being wrong, as that would be fixed really easily. The programmer at Riot was probably staring at the data and seeing something like
BLUE_MINION_BASE_XP = 35
PURPLE_MINION_BASE_XP = 35
and wondering why the blue minions were giving 37 XP instead. He could just change BLUE_MINION_BASE_XP to 33 to "fix" the problem, but that's only going to cause problems down the line when the real bug gets accidentally fixed, and suddenly the blue minions are giving 2 less XP than normal.
Going through the whole code and finding the root of the problem takes considerably more time. Also, Riot programmers aren't stupid, and the root bug was probably introduced while trying to fix some other bug. So the root bug gets fixed, and the original bug breaks again, and they have to go back and fix the first bug the right way, and not in a way that causes blue minions to give extra XP.
Back in the alpha days of Riot, if they came across a weird bug like this a couple days before release, they probably would have just set the blue minion XP to 2 lower to quickly fix the problem since releasing quickly is more important than getting the code right. Now they're paying for all these quick fixes with obscure bugs that come up and take a lot longer to fix than if the same bugs came up on a "clean" code base.
And this is EXACTLY what I think, too. One of the first things I learned about programming is that if you encounter a bug and do not fix it properly, in the end you will pay for it because the code will get messier and it will take more and more time to understand what is going on.
So with all due respect, I'd say the programmers are quite incompetent.
I mean, I can absolutely understand that there are deadlines, that the servers are supposed to be up and running 24/7, that all the kids out there get super angry super fast if an unwanted feature in your software is being discovered.. and thats all fine, I'd probably do the same thing. That being said, I would have expected other people do to better than me.
Seriously, if one or more creeps for some unknown reason grant +2EXP compared to purple side minions, that should be one of the easiest fixes imaginable. So if it takes like 2 or 3 days to get this straight, holy moly.
bushes are broken
"The biggest thing you didn't cover is that vision is not a 'point to point' system; vision is based on character size. This is so a giant cho doesn't suddenly appear half way around a corner, and also so cho can 'see around' that corner a little bit. Unfortunately the algorithm doing that check isn't very good (it's what leads to the 'I can see them, they can't see me' bug) so I'm rewriting it. Otherwise you're pretty on target."
Ah well. I guess Dota2 has a lot of bugs too.
That's the thing, though. Just subtracting 2 from the blue minions probably isn't the right fix, and it was fixes like that which was what got Riot's codebase into this situation in the first place.
Regarding deadlines, Yango (I think) has written posts about the fortuitous timing of LoL's release - back when online gaming was just emerging, F2P models hadn't really been developed, and DotA2 was still a little ways off from being released. If LoL was released 6 months or a year later it is very possible that it would not enjoy nearly as much success as it does today. Hitting those deadlines generally means compromising on code quality. Now that LoL is a more mature game it makes sense to spend the time to clean up the mess that was made when they were trying to get a product out the door as soon as possible.
In school they teach you to make sure your code stays clean, etc. etc.. Real life is a different bitch. You can have the best code in the world and that doesn't matter if DotA2 or HoN beats you to the punch.
There is a concept in the tech world known as "technical debt" - you can take on technical debt by hacking together quick fixes and messy code, which will in the short term speed up the development process but in the long term will cause strange bugs and slow down the development process. You want to avoid technical debt if possible, but just like how a new business will take out loans to jump start their business, sometimes (nearly always) a startup tech company will take on technical debt to release their product (and start making money) faster.
I'm pretty sure I've made the "LoL came out at just the right time" point before, but it's possibly something Yango and I share.
I'm looking for the post now, but it's hard to find the right keywords.
Lol for some reason I have always assumed you are montechristo and I was confused when you said that. I guess Montes guide to ARAMs threw me off lol
Such is the issue with TL/igname splits. People tend to refer to him by his ign(Montgomery).
