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On July 15 2013 09:24 UniversalSnip wrote:
also, I'm pretty happy to see bulwark go. I thought they were going to remove bulwark because having a highly slot efficient upgrade kind of goes in the opposite direction of what you want a support item to be, and I thought maybe they'd give aegis an active because it just being a huge statstick is really boring - who wants to be forced to buy a brainless item over fun ones? - but it didn't occur to me to fold locket in. they're sort of going the same route as mekansm.
Where's my Dagon 5?
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On July 15 2013 09:24 UniversalSnip wrote:
also, I'm pretty happy to see bulwark go. I thought they were going to remove bulwark because having a highly slot efficient upgrade kind of goes in the opposite direction of what you want a support item to be, and I thought maybe they'd give aegis an active because it just being a huge statstick is really boring - who wants to be forced to buy a brainless item over fun ones? - but it didn't occur to me to fold locket in. they're sort of going the same route as mekansm.
I guess it IS the mekanism replacement, but it still leaves a foul taste in my mouth that they're taking out the one and only "real" item that a support can consider buying ever.
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On July 15 2013 08:47 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 08:28 xes wrote:
At this point, just waiting for Riot to declare League unfun and remove it from the game. But if they did that, the world would be at war again. League was put in as a direct nerf to war.
Good. War was way more fun than league ever was.
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United States47024 Posts
Thinking back on this discussion, I'm not exactly sure what Ketara wants out of this whole support item business. He claims actives are no good because lower-level players will forget to use them. But at the same time, he questions a passive aura item like Aegis for being too good. The reason top laners and junglers can buy Aegis is because the stats are just as appropriate for them as they are for a support, and there's not really a combination of stats that is "appropriate for a support but bad for everyone else" so you can't really design a support-only item without using slot-inefficiency and item actives to drive its pricing.
I think Riot does have a few good item actives on the table, they're just totally crazy and thought "expensive items that give awful stat combinations" is the way to sell them to a support--which is just totally nonsensical. Supports value cost-efficiency and stat-appropriateness MORE than other roles, not less, because they have so little gold to work with.
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To me, that's what defines a support item - lots of utility and extreme affordability on a shoestring budget. They're never going to scale along axes like AP or tankiness multiplicatively in the same way heroes with money do so you give them effects that don't have varying value based on total gold.
PS: ketara turned out to be right about riot's take on level spikes on ultless heroes, although i don't think it's a big motivating factor for the jayce rework. sorry dewd
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39739889#post39739889
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On July 15 2013 05:21 Requizen wrote:
I think the obvious solution is to bring back Heart of Gold.
that'd be nice
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On July 15 2013 07:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On July 15 2013 05:51 Sponkz wrote:
The real problem is the usage of other support items. Imagine if CV was an active on shard of the true ice, shit would get bought way more often than way. Also with sighstone being Season 3's HoG, there is little usage for kage's lucky pick, since it gives bullshit stats for every support anyways. I think it would be neat if they removed Clairvoyance as a summoner and changed Eleisa's Miracle so it just gave a Clairvoyance active. I'd buy that shit. This is actually genius as fuck
Conundrum: what button do you press when the item disappears?
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United States47024 Posts
This is sort of interesting (and maybe a bit disappointing, depending on your point of view) because in my opinion, all the strategic "macro" gameplay in this genre comes from the varying power development of different heroes/champions. Fundamentally, the gameplay of hero selection to cover your overall game development, item selection to play to your strengths or play damage control when the opponent is going to be strong, etc. entirely is built from the asymmetry of champion power over the course of the game. This is where the strategy of a MOBA game comes from. A greater diversity of power curves leads to a greater diversity of options out of which to build teams, and greater flexibility in item selection and game plans, which can only really lead to deeper gameplay.
Though I guess this also partly goes back to Riot not wanting champion selection/drafting to be overly influential in how the game is played due to Blind Pick being the most common format.
Oddly enough, this also reminded me of an old Uta post, that it took me like 2 years to fully grasp the consequences of: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129727¤tpage=323#6443
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I always thought the disappearing-item thing was kind of silly, anyway.
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There always is the obvious solution of giving Jayce and Elise the Nidalee treatment.
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On July 15 2013 09:37 TheYango wrote:
Thinking back on this discussion, I'm not exactly sure what Ketara wants out of this whole support item business. He claims actives are no good because lower-level players will forget to use them. But at the same time, he questions a passive aura item like Aegis for being too good. The reason top laners and junglers can buy Aegis is because the stats are just as appropriate for them as they are for a support, and there's not really a combination of stats that is "appropriate for a support but bad for everyone else" so you can't really design a support-only item without using slot-inefficiency and item actives to drive its pricing.
I think Riot does have a few good item actives on the table, they're just totally crazy and thought "expensive items that give awful stat combinations" is the way to sell them to a support--which is just totally nonsensical. Supports value cost-efficiency and stat-appropriateness MORE than other roles, not less, because they have so little gold to work with.
I think actives are great. I just don't think Riot is going to put out an item that only has an active, or whose stats are basically meaningless, because of lower level play. Any support items they put out are going to have stats on it, which means they're never going to be shooting for items in the 1k gold range, it's going to be about the 1.5-2k gold range that they go for.
I think Shurelya, Ohmwrecker, Mikaels Crucible, Banner of Command, Twin Shadows, Will of the Ancients and Shard of True Ice are all workable, but they may need some tweaking before they're more worth it than just buying a lot of wards and maybe grabbing a Kindlegem.
Zeke's Herald I agree with you is way better on a laner, and Eleisa's Miracle is just dumb and needs to be redone altogether. Morello's I think is already pretty cool on an APey support in a game where they happen to get early kills.
I edit everything ten times: Shard of True Ice is I think probably the best in terms of an obvious support item, but suffers from having an active that's just really fucking bad. If it was a targetable ground effect slow rather than click on an ally champion, or if you could click it on an enemy champion too, I bet it'd see a lot of use. You can use it on Tibbers, which is pretty sweet.
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On July 15 2013 10:00 TheYango wrote:This is sort of interesting (and maybe a bit disappointing, depending on your point of view) because in my opinion, all the strategic "macro" gameplay in this genre comes from the varying power development of different heroes/champions. Fundamentally, the gameplay of hero selection to cover your overall game development, item selection to play to your strengths or play damage control when the opponent is going to be strong, etc. entirely is built from the asymmetry of champion power over the course of the game. This is where the strategy of a MOBA game comes from. A greater diversity of power curves leads to a greater diversity of options out of which to build teams, and greater flexibility in item selection and game plans, which can only really lead to deeper gameplay. Though I guess this also partly goes back to Riot not wanting champion selection/drafting to be overly influential in how the game is played due to Blind Pick being the most common format. Oddly enough, this also reminded me of an old Uta post, that it took me like 2 years to fully grasp the consequences of: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129727¤tpage=323#6443
Hmm that's something I've learned in the past year of LoL; but as of recent Riot nerfs and champion releases. They've been trying to homogenize power peaks.
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On July 15 2013 09:59 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 07:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On July 15 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On July 15 2013 05:51 Sponkz wrote:
The real problem is the usage of other support items. Imagine if CV was an active on shard of the true ice, shit would get bought way more often than way. Also with sighstone being Season 3's HoG, there is little usage for kage's lucky pick, since it gives bullshit stats for every support anyways. I think it would be neat if they removed Clairvoyance as a summoner and changed Eleisa's Miracle so it just gave a Clairvoyance active. I'd buy that shit. This is actually genius as fuck Conundrum: what button do you press when the item disappears?
3rd summoner spell appears with CV.
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On July 15 2013 10:14 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 09:37 TheYango wrote:
Thinking back on this discussion, I'm not exactly sure what Ketara wants out of this whole support item business. He claims actives are no good because lower-level players will forget to use them. But at the same time, he questions a passive aura item like Aegis for being too good. The reason top laners and junglers can buy Aegis is because the stats are just as appropriate for them as they are for a support, and there's not really a combination of stats that is "appropriate for a support but bad for everyone else" so you can't really design a support-only item without using slot-inefficiency and item actives to drive its pricing.
I think Riot does have a few good item actives on the table, they're just totally crazy and thought "expensive items that give awful stat combinations" is the way to sell them to a support--which is just totally nonsensical. Supports value cost-efficiency and stat-appropriateness MORE than other roles, not less, because they have so little gold to work with. I think actives are great. I just don't think Riot is going to put out an item that only has an active, or whose stats are basically meaningless, because of lower level play. Any support items they put out are going to have stats on it, which means they're never going to be shooting for items in the 1k gold range, it's going to be about the 1.5-2k gold range that they go for. I think Shurelya, Ohmwrecker, Mikaels Crucible, Banner of Command, Twin Shadows, Will of the Ancients and Shard of True Ice are all workable, but they may need some tweaking before they're more worth it than just buying a lot of wards and maybe grabbing a Kindlegem. Zeke's Herald I agree with you is way better on a laner, and Eleisa's Miracle is just dumb and needs to be redone altogether. Morello's I think is already pretty cool on an APey support in a game where they happen to get early kills.
If you have enough options, though, people can still just not pay a premium for item actives at a lower level of play as long as there are options instead of replacements. The game can be played differently at different levels of play if you have a mix of mostly-passive-stats mid-tier items and cheap items with huge utility but hardly any selfish stats.
Personally I would welcome watching (and hopefully getting good enough to properly play) a League of Legends where supports have an opportunity to be super squishy and do no damage, but have insane utility by skirting around the edges of the fight and setting the terms with item actives. Or, tank supports can still build mostly passive items and be stronger in lane and for initiation/hard peel.
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What I said about the issue with active-only items back when we were discussing it is that they're probably awesome, but the problem is at low levels of play (and we're still talking 50% of all players or more) people buy items with actives and then forget to use them.
So if the item doesn't have any stats, it's either doing something in a fight or not doing anything in a fight, all depending on the skill of the player. This isn't necessarily bad for gameplay, but at low levels where you're going to forget to use it, it'll be very frustrating and "unfun", so I doubt Riot is likely to make items with actives but no stats.
Watch your bronze league friends play sometimes, they'll buy things like Shurelya or Zhonya and just never use the active the entire game long.
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crazy thought: if items with actives become more common and more important, the use of said actives will naturally become more common in all levels of play. Even low levels, where apparently players might as well just be mindless monkeys who can hardly even bang on the keyboard right.
A friend of mine who's new to the game doesn't ever use ashe arrow in aram, but that doesn't mean that we should remove champs' ults from the game because 4skills 2hard.
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On July 15 2013 10:32 Ketara wrote:
What I said about the issue with active-only items back when we were discussing it is that they're probably awesome, but the problem is at low levels of play (and we're still talking 50% of all players or more) people buy items with actives and then forget to use them.
So if the item doesn't have any stats, it's either doing something in a fight or not doing anything in a fight, all depending on the skill of the player. This isn't necessarily bad for gameplay, but at low levels where you're going to forget to use it, it'll be very frustrating and "unfun", so I doubt Riot is likely to make items with actives but no stats.
Watch your bronze league friends play sometimes, they'll buy things like Shurelya or Zhonya and just never use the active the entire game long.
Right, but if we give them a passive item that's better for them, who cares if they still buy an item that they can't/don't use?
EDIT: That old Uta post that Yango linked has like the truest assessment of high/low level play I have ever seen
Good players find ways to contract the times he's not "in the zone," or find ways to dominate/do well. Bad players fall apart during these zones.
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Let's just remove jungle because there is no way you can predict where the jungler is?
Come on.Give people at least some credit.Any person who has 2 functioning hands and can turn on a computer should be able to click 1/2 more buttons.
And if you can't then just don't buy it.
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Why is "low level players might not use it" even an argument? Since when do we balance things around Bronze and Silver?
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On July 15 2013 10:42 Requizen wrote:
Why is "low level players might not use it" even an argument? Since when do we balance things around Bronze and Silver?
Well hecarim nerfs are an example of that.
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EPT
