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On July 15 2013 05:02 TheYango wrote:
That's an awkward solution because you tread a very fine line between "the item is too weak for laners to buy, but good enough for supports" and "the item is just too poor for anyone to buy at all". Most of the current "support" items fall under the latter category (e.g. Shard, Ohmwrecker).
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items.
Out of curiosity, what would be your opinion if items like Shurelya, Locket, etc. were made especially cheap with low cost and high cost-efficiency, while being upgradable for more stats while retaining the core effects (picture Ruby sightstone)? Would that be a fake good idea because supports would rather get another "useful" item than additional stats on one he already has (treating the "premium" as the unique actives/passives rather than the raw stats) and thus they wouldn't be more susceptible to upgrade them, regardless of whether or not "farmed" roles would be interested in the upgrades or not?
While I agree on the "less pricey" basic idea, if the price is low enough and the effect powerful enough, wouldn't team try to stack up as many of them to leverage their power?
Say if you can get Locket or Shurelya active for 800 gold, and Aegis aura (with roughly 0 self-stats) for ~1k, rush Locket on a powerful early ganking jungler like Lee and make aggressive plays and dives using the shield to allow those, then put your support on Shurelya duty and get the off-laner to buy aegis, and overthrow the enemy team before they can finish their first selfish major item.
I understand that if the prices are balanced so that dumping farming/jungle gold into it creates powerful timings to abuse, but also powerful reverse-timing where in an even match the first completed items are much more powerful than your "support items"+components, which is good for the game because it adds variety in game plan, strategies, and also makes picks like current Lee Sin less binary by reducing/delaying their "ticking time bomb" curve.
However, given Riot's habits around balancing, the pro scene's resistance to change, and the amount of whine such changes and their potential (like "Mejai shouldn't be viable because it would allow too much snowballing") would generate within the community, I have the feeling such attempts would end up being either not fine-tuned enough, or once they are, wouldn't last long until they get gutted into excessively-niche/non-viable because of the discrepancy in peak timings and stuff they would introduce, that pro and players like us alike are kinda unable/unwilling to learn to deal with.
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Just a random thought I had, put heal on Shen. Every other ult you shield 250 / 550 / 850 and heal 165 / 240 / 315.
Ignite is still going to hurt but being able to come in and add more health than just the shield could be surprising.
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On July 15 2013 06:49 Lmui wrote:
Just a random thought I had, put heal on Shen. Every other ult you shield 250 / 550 / 850 and heal 165 / 240 / 315.
Ignite is still going to hurt but being able to come in and add more health than just the shield could be surprising.
A reason to build elisa's and spam heal because 7 item shen why not? :O
It gives mp/5 you say? ffffuuuuuu
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Wickd did that quite a few times.Can't really name games though.Heal pretty underrated imo.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2013 06:43 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 06:40 TheYango wrote:On July 15 2013 06:32 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 15 2013 06:24 TheYango wrote:On July 15 2013 06:22 nafta wrote:
Is support even a thing for new players? It is for those new players that are being force-fed the game by their friends who are already level 30 and are teaching them the game the wrong way. If it weren't for my friends teaching me the game I would have never kept playing :p Obviously--I just disagree with force-feeding the concepts of roles, jungling, etc. too early in a player's LoL experience. This is interesting to me. How else would you explain what's going on in the game? I get the value of not shoving 1/1/2/jungle meta down someone's throat/having them figure out for themselves where each champion should go if they like (no reason not to do Ashe mid if you can do it well/have reason for it, regardless of meta) but roles seem fairly sensical.
The things that make Ashe bad at mid are actually totally irrelevant to someone's first few games of LoL.
You just go through the general gameplay and roll with it, really. Kill creeps, kill people, kill towers. Getting people hemmed in on roles is just giving them information they're not ready for too early.
The analogy is that if you were teaching a kid their first game of basketball, going through what all the positions do isn't really meaningful until they've reached a certain level of comfort/proficiency with the game. You're just going to teach them the game.
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United States15536 Posts
On July 15 2013 07:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 06:43 AsmodeusXI wrote:On July 15 2013 06:40 TheYango wrote:On July 15 2013 06:32 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 15 2013 06:24 TheYango wrote:On July 15 2013 06:22 nafta wrote:
Is support even a thing for new players? It is for those new players that are being force-fed the game by their friends who are already level 30 and are teaching them the game the wrong way. If it weren't for my friends teaching me the game I would have never kept playing :p Obviously--I just disagree with force-feeding the concepts of roles, jungling, etc. too early in a player's LoL experience. This is interesting to me. How else would you explain what's going on in the game? I get the value of not shoving 1/1/2/jungle meta down someone's throat/having them figure out for themselves where each champion should go if they like (no reason not to do Ashe mid if you can do it well/have reason for it, regardless of meta) but roles seem fairly sensical. The things that make Ashe bad at mid are actually totally irrelevant to someone's first few games of LoL. You just go through the general gameplay and roll with it, really. Kill creeps, kill people, kill towers. Getting people hemmed in on roles is just giving them information they're not ready for too early. The analogy is that if you were teaching a kid their first game of basketball, going through what all the positions do isn't really meaningful until they've reached a certain level of comfort/proficiency with the game. You're just going to teach them the game.
Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at. 
But yeah, that makes sense. I like information overload personally, but that's just me, so I get where you're coming from there.
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On July 15 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:51 Sponkz wrote:
The real problem is the usage of other support items. Imagine if CV was an active on shard of the true ice, shit would get bought way more often than way. Also with sighstone being Season 3's HoG, there is little usage for kage's lucky pick, since it gives bullshit stats for every support anyways. I think it would be neat if they removed Clairvoyance as a summoner and changed Eleisa's Miracle so it just gave a Clairvoyance active. I'd buy that shit.
This is actually genius as fuck
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United Kingdom1483 Posts
On July 15 2013 07:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:55 Ketara wrote:On July 15 2013 05:51 Sponkz wrote:
The real problem is the usage of other support items. Imagine if CV was an active on shard of the true ice, shit would get bought way more often than way. Also with sighstone being Season 3's HoG, there is little usage for kage's lucky pick, since it gives bullshit stats for every support anyways. I think it would be neat if they removed Clairvoyance as a summoner and changed Eleisa's Miracle so it just gave a Clairvoyance active. I'd buy that shit. This is actually genius as fuck
fortunately this idea comes up on reddit every two weeks or so
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One of the thing that Riot should look at for support itemization is build paths. I've complained before about Aegis having too many componants, but Locket also has a lot (luckily 2 are really cheap) but, IMO, supports are best served with simpler item paths. To demonstrate:
Ruby Sighstone is built like this: Ruby +475G = Sighstone + Ruby + 125G = Ruby Sightstone. That is really simple, never takes up more than 1 slot, and realistically you never have to save up more than 700 G.
Aegis: Bead + Cloth = Emblem + Ruby + NMM + 625G = Aegis + NMM + 400 G = Bulwark
What would be wrong with making a bunch of items that are like: Emblem/Kindlegem/Tear/ + 500-800 G = X ? With possibly a second, small 500-800 G upgrade to that upgrade?
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CV was declared unfun by Riot and basically removed from the game, no real reason to add it back in. Of course CV in the modern world vs CV when it was actually used is totally different. Once upon a time I could CV fountain - enemy blue - enemy red - negate gank top lane in a fairly predictable pattern. Nowadays who knows where the jungler is.
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At this point, just waiting for Riot to declare League unfun and remove it from the game.
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On July 15 2013 08:28 xes wrote:
At this point, just waiting for Riot to declare League unfun and remove it from the game.
promotions are so stressful and unfun
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On July 15 2013 08:28 xes wrote:
At this point, just waiting for Riot to declare League unfun and remove it from the game.
Riot hire this guy already.
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On July 15 2013 08:28 xes wrote:
At this point, just waiting for Riot to declare League unfun and remove it from the game.
But if they did that, the world would be at war again. League was put in as a direct nerf to war.
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Dying is unfun. When dead a minigame pops up similar to Whack-A-Mole except substituting moles for Teemos. This persists entirely through death and takes up your whole screen so you can be having fun while dead.
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On July 15 2013 08:49 Zdrastochye wrote:
Dying is unfun. When dead a minigame pops up similar to Whack-A-Mole except substituting moles for Teemos. This persists entirely through death and takes up your whole screen so you can be having fun while dead.
Incoming Bejeweled while dead mod.
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United States47024 Posts
Does "I want to play the 'Whack-A-Teemo' minigame" become a legitimate excuse for feeding, then?
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It's about as legitimate as Jon Snow.
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On July 15 2013 05:57 TheYango wrote:
The deal-breaker for me is that due to the flat movespeed of the ghosts, the actual usefulness of the item diminshes rapidly as the game progresses. It is most effective when the ghosts run faster than champions because there is a limited distance over which they can chase. When all champs have upgraded boots, there is actually a high likelihood that the ghosts don't hit anything at all, and that is usually going to be the case by the time a support could get it. Which is why I feel the item is most suited to an AP.
yah I noticed how right you were about this when the item first came out. I think the ghosts should get a % of your movespeed as a bonus. That's still not ideal because supports won't always have boots two but you can't really have them scale off the target's movespeed because then the item becomes just a matter of yes/no pathing distance rather than a cool chase. This also means reveries speeds up your ghosts >:)
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also, I'm pretty happy to see bulwark go. I thought they were going to remove bulwark because having a highly slot efficient upgrade kind of goes in the opposite direction of what you want a support item to be, and I thought maybe they'd give aegis an active because it just being a huge statstick is really boring - who wants to be forced to buy a brainless item over fun ones? - but it didn't occur to me to fold locket in. they're sort of going the same route as mekansm.
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EPT
