|
On July 15 2013 05:45 nafta wrote:
So since everything but those 2 items is garbage let's make them also garbage and that makes it all good?
Everything but Aegis and Locket is garbage, but at the same time Aegis and Locket are completely fucking overpowered. You guys have been saying that they're the most cost efficient items in the game and that having 2-3 Lockets on the team is perfectly acceptable for a long time now.
So in order to buff the garbage items to a point where they're alternatives to Aegis/Locket, you'd have to also make them overpowered. Therefor before you can buff the garbage items you have to nerf Aegis/Locket.
It makes so much sense I don't get why you aren't seeing it.
|
No it doesn't because then supports won't get items other than sighstones,wards and kindlegems.If an item is bad why would you get it?
|
Because they weren't overpowered. they were on par with the power level that support items should be.
|
United States47024 Posts
Well there are a lot of "overpowered" items in the game, it's all relative really.
|
The real problem is the usage of other support items. Imagine if CV was an active on shard of the true ice, shit would get bought way more often than way. Also with sighstone being Season 3's HoG, there is little usage for kage's lucky pick, since it gives bullshit stats for every support anyways.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:43 Ketara wrote:
In order to make support items good enough to be alternatives to Aegis, they'd have to be SO good that you'd be buying them on junglers and top laners, because Aegis is so good that you're already supposed to be buying it on junglers and top laners instead.
This is just wrong. The reason top laners and junglers buy supportive items is because there's simply 100% overlap between the stats involved and has nothing to do with the power level of the item.
If you make a good HP/MR/Armor/CDR item, a top laner or jungler would buy it. This is a no-brainer. The only way you encourage supports to buy them over these roles is to make the slot-efficiency prohibitive for the other roles because that's the only real differentiating factor when it comes to itemizing those stats--that supports are less gated by slot-efficiency and more gated by cost-efficiency due to their lower overall income.
Somehow Riot feels the way to make support items work is to turn them into a convoluted mix of AP and regen stats that isn't all that cost-effective.
|
On July 15 2013 05:48 nafta wrote:
No it doesn't because then supports won't get items other than sighstones,wards and kindlegems.If an item is bad why would you get it?
If that happens (it will) then you can rebalance stuff like Shard of True Ice and Eleisa's Miracle (stupid item) and Twin Shadows and Ohmwrecker and Shurelya's to make them good buys for support.
But until you fix the Aegis/Locket problem, you can't do that, because no matter how good you made those options people would still get Aegis/Locket if they were gonna buy an item, and if you made them good enough to be alternatives then you'd see them on Junglers and Top/Mid laners which you don't want to happen. Get it?
|
On July 15 2013 05:51 Sponkz wrote:
The real problem is the usage of other support items. Imagine if CV was an active on shard of the true ice, shit would get bought way more often than way. Also with sighstone being Season 3's HoG, there is little usage for kage's lucky pick, since it gives bullshit stats for every support anyways.
I think it would be neat if they removed Clairvoyance as a summoner and changed Eleisa's Miracle so it just gave a Clairvoyance active. I'd buy that shit.
|
On July 15 2013 05:53 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:48 nafta wrote:
No it doesn't because then supports won't get items other than sighstones,wards and kindlegems.If an item is bad why would you get it? If that happens (it will) then you can rebalance stuff like Shard of True Ice and Eleisa's Miracle (stupid item) and Twin Shadows and Ohmwrecker and Shurelya's to make them good buys for support. But until you fix the Aegis/Locket problem, you can't do that, because no matter how good you made those options people would still get Aegis/Locket if they were gonna buy an item, and if you made them good enough to be alternatives then you'd see them on Junglers and Top/Mid laners which you don't want to happen. Get it?
so... your argument is that no matter how good you make the alternatives people will always buy aegis/locket?
that's a bad argument.
|
On July 15 2013 05:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:43 Ketara wrote:
In order to make support items good enough to be alternatives to Aegis, they'd have to be SO good that you'd be buying them on junglers and top laners, because Aegis is so good that you're already supposed to be buying it on junglers and top laners instead.
This is just wrong. The reason top laners and junglers buy supportive items is because there's simply 100% overlap between the stats involved and has nothing to do with the power level of the item. If you make a good HP/MR/Armor/CDR item, a top laner or jungler would buy it. This is a no-brainer. The only way you encourage supports to buy them over these roles is to make the slot-efficiency prohibitive for the other roles because that's the only real differentiating factor when it comes to itemizing those stats--that supports are less gated by slot-efficiency and more gated by cost-efficiency due to their lower overall income. Somehow Riot feels the way to make support items work is to turn them into a convoluted mix of AP and regen stats that isn't all that cost-effective.
b-b-but ma supports have ap ratios!
With that being said; I like where twin shadow is at as an item; where it's sort of ambiguous in role item. It's cheap enough for supports to pick it up; but offers enough combat effectiveness in ganks that midlaners can pick it up as well.
|
United States47024 Posts
The deal-breaker for me is that due to the flat movespeed of the ghosts, the actual usefulness of the item diminshes rapidly as the game progresses. It is most effective when the ghosts run faster than champions because there is a limited distance over which they can chase. When all champs have upgraded boots, there is actually a high likelihood that the ghosts don't hit anything at all, and that is usually going to be the case by the time a support could get it. Which is why I feel the item is most suited to an AP.
|
Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:57 TheYango wrote:
The deal-breaker for me is that due to the flat movespeed of the ghosts, the actual usefulness of the item diminshes rapidly as the game progresses. It is most effective when the ghosts run faster than champions because there is a limited distance over which they can chase. When all champs have upgraded boots, there is actually a high likelihood that the ghosts don't hit anything at all, and that is usually going to be the case by the time a support could get it.
can still use them for facechecking or am I wrong?
|
On July 15 2013 05:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:43 Ketara wrote:
In order to make support items good enough to be alternatives to Aegis, they'd have to be SO good that you'd be buying them on junglers and top laners, because Aegis is so good that you're already supposed to be buying it on junglers and top laners instead.
This is just wrong. The reason top laners and junglers buy supportive items is because there's simply 100% overlap between the stats involved and has nothing to do with the power level of the item. If you make a good HP/MR/Armor/CDR item, a top laner or jungler would buy it. This is a no-brainer. The only way you encourage supports to buy them over these roles is to make the slot-efficiency prohibitive for the other roles because that's the only real differentiating factor when it comes to itemizing those stats--that supports are less gated by slot-efficiency and more gated by cost-efficiency due to their lower overall income. Somehow Riot feels the way to make support items work is to turn them into a convoluted mix of AP and regen stats that isn't all that cost-effective.
I think I might be triple posting. I'm pro at forums.
What other stats is a support item going to have?
I mean I agree that the way to make a support item is to make it slot inefficient for laners, that makes sense.
But what are you going to put on this item? And what is it going to build from?
Supports love HP/MR/Armor, regen and CDR. CDR directly increases their utility, and tanky stats let them survive a fight long enough to use all their utility. Regen is super helpful for supports in lane, although becomes less helpful later in the game. I agree that the current support items have too much regen on them.
You can't put AD/crit/lifesteal/spell vamp/etc on a support item, for obvious reasons.
AP is good for some supports but not good for others.
At the end of the day, how do you make a support item that's better for supports than just buying a Kindlegem? And if you have a Kindlegem, why are you not turning it into a Locket?
|
United States47024 Posts
You can, but that's an awfully narrow use compared to the use a mid laner has for initiating ganks with it at the point where he has boots advantage.
|
Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:59 TheYango wrote:
You can, but that's an awfully narrow use compared to the use a mid laner has for initiating ganks with it at the point where he has boots advantage.
Remove the Mres and some AP. Put health on it and bäm support item. Still helpful if you want to disengage.
|
On July 15 2013 05:57 TheYango wrote:
The deal-breaker for me is that due to the flat movespeed of the ghosts, the actual usefulness of the item diminshes rapidly as the game progresses. It is most effective when the ghosts run faster than champions because there is a limited distance over which they can chase. When all champs have upgraded boots, there is actually a high likelihood that the ghosts don't hit anything at all, and that is usually going to be the case by the time a support could get it. Which is why I feel the item is most suited to an AP.
I think it's still effective in late game; mostly sort of like a cheap version of CV; it leads you to where the enemies are; if you don't have vision of them. Also the spookiness of the ghosts isn't too bad for disengage; and can act as powerful zoning tools imo.
But yeah; solo laners can abuse its power peak better due to how early they can grab it.
Ketara here's a good item idea for supports; something like soul shroud.
+200 hp, 10% cdr aura, +10 armor, +vision wards put down get +30% more are of vision; Make it cost 1.4k gold total; with no possible progression. Solo laners probably not going to pick it up.
|
I think there should just be active items with little to no stats. CV as an item, a stat-less Shurelyas, Randuin, or Locket active, or like DFG style active "hit a target and they take 20% more damage for the next 6 seconds" on an item. Its possible certain jungler might pick them up, but I think it'd be great for supports.
|
I think Twin Shadows is a perfect example of a support item that's just about there and with some little tweaking could be great.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:59 Ketara wrote:
At the end of the day, how do you make a support item that's better for supports than just buying a Kindlegem? And if you have a Kindlegem, why are you not turning it into a Locket?
You really think it's too hard to come up with an 850 gold active support item where the active is more valuable than Kindlegem?
|
This is too hard; just reintroduce HoG please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
