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On July 15 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:
I mean fundamentally the issue with supportive team itemization that made Bulwark and Locket as strong as they were was an utter lack of alternative options that were actually good enough to be usable in most situations, especially since Riot killed Shurelya's going into S3. The other ostensible "support" items are things like Shard, Ohmwrecker, and Twin Shadows that are gimmicky at best, and flat out unusable at worst.
Combining Aegis and Locket essentially exacerbates this issue because it merges them into one support super-item that you have to have one of, but then have nothing else to get.
"When a jungler gets a Bulwark, there's not much a support can buy... so we'll take away Locket from them."
I think supports need better "offensive" itemization options... i.e. better Stark's.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't think I'd ever see Zeke's as a support item. You have to buy 1k+ gold of support-irrelevant stats. That supports ever bought it at all was a product of junglers and top laners not buying it despite the fact that they were buying items that gave similar stats at similar self-cost-effectiveness anyway (HP, CDR, AD/AS depending on which version of Zeke's you're looking at, Lifesteal are stats that many top laners or junglers would not mind buying on an item).
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:49 TheYango wrote:
I don't think I'd ever see Zeke's as a support item. You have to buy 1k+ gold of support-irrelevant stats. That supports ever bought it at all was a product of junglers and top laners not buying it despite the fact that they were buying items that gave similar stats at similar self-cost-effectiveness anyway (HP, CDR, AD/AS depending on which version of Zeke's you're looking at, Lifesteal are stats that many top laners or junglers would not mind buying on an item).
WotA on a Sona/Janna/Nami type support with 2 AP Champion + AP Jungler or even without
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I used to get zeke s2 on supports.Edward did it a lot too.It worked pretty good if you got fed since hog>kindle was standart.They could make it so the owner of the item doesn't get the aura and reduce the cost so it would be pretty good.
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United States47024 Posts
WotA's a sort of weird case because while it's stats aren't great for a support, but Riot nerfed the self-stats of the item and made the "selfish" alternative (Wraith Spirit) a lot more cost-effective for self-stats.
On July 15 2013 04:53 nafta wrote:
I used to get zeke s2 on supports.Edward did it a lot too.It worked pretty good if you got fed since hog>kindle was standart.They could make it so the owner of the item doesn't get the aura and reduce the cost so it would be pretty good.
Again, I feel this was only because junglers and top laners were not on top of the business of buying team items. Junglers didn't even buy Aegis for like the first half of S2. Fundamentally there's no reason why a support should buy Zeke's when the stats are more appropriate for a top or jungler and they can get one faster.
For a support item to be a really good support item, you have to be able to say that it's better for the support to have it than someone else, and have a good reason for this. There is none for Zeke's. There's absolutely no way in which it's better for a support to have Zeke's rather than a top/jungler other than top laners/junglers being selfish, because the item spends almost half its gold value on stats that the support doesn't use, but the jungler/top laner does.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:54 TheYango wrote:WotA's a sort of weird case because while it's stats aren't great for a support, but Riot nerfed the self-stats of the item and made the "selfish" alternative (Wraith Spirit) a lot more cost-effective for self-stats. Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:53 nafta wrote:
I used to get zeke s2 on supports.Edward did it a lot too.It worked pretty good if you got fed since hog>kindle was standart.They could make it so the owner of the item doesn't get the aura and reduce the cost so it would be pretty good. Again, I feel this was only because junglers and top laners were not on top of the business of buying team items. Junglers didn't even buy Aegis for like the first half of S2. Fundamentally there's no reason why a support should buy Zeke's when the stats are more appropriate for a top or jungler and they can get one faster. For a support item to be a really good support item, you have to be able to say that it's better for the support to have it than someone else, and have a good reason for this. There is none for Zeke's. There's absolutely no way in which it's better for a support to have Zeke's rather than a top/jungler other than top laners/junglers being selfish.
so basically gimp the stats on shurelias, twin shadows and other aura items. So you buy it for the active or aura and every other laner can get items with better stats.
WotA Stats are only good on supports who are never in the middle of the fight like Janna and Nami.
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United States47024 Posts
That's an awkward solution because you tread a very fine line between "the item is too weak for laners to buy, but good enough for supports" and "the item is just too poor for anyone to buy at all". Most of the current "support" items fall under the latter category (e.g. Shard, Ohmwrecker).
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:02 TheYango wrote:
That's an awkward solution because you tread a very fine line between "the item is too weak for laners to buy, but good enough for supports" and "the item is just too poor for anyone to buy at all". Most of the current "support" items fall under the latter category (e.g. Shard).
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items.
Isnt this the same what I said?! I mean if the item is in the 800-1200 range it cant have much stats otherwise it would be too powerful.
What do you dont like about shard? I mean 45 ap is not for every support similar to WotA but I like the idea of the active.
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On July 15 2013 05:02 TheYango wrote:
That's an awkward solution because you tread a very fine line between "the item is too weak for laners to buy, but good enough for supports" and "the item is just too poor for anyone to buy at all". Most of the current "support" items fall under the latter category (e.g. Shard).
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items.
They had brut and guise and chalice. But then they all got strong upgrades.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:05 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:02 TheYango wrote:
That's an awkward solution because you tread a very fine line between "the item is too weak for laners to buy, but good enough for supports" and "the item is just too poor for anyone to buy at all". Most of the current "support" items fall under the latter category (e.g. Shard).
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items. Isnt this the same what I said?! I mean if the item is in the 800-1200 range it cant have much stats otherwise it would be too powerful. What do you dont like about shard? I mean 45 ap is not for every support similar to WotA but I like the idea of the active.
I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you meant giving the Shurelya's treatment to these support items by gutting the self-stat cost-efficiency and shifting the gold value into the active.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:05 Chexx wrote:On July 15 2013 05:02 TheYango wrote:
That's an awkward solution because you tread a very fine line between "the item is too weak for laners to buy, but good enough for supports" and "the item is just too poor for anyone to buy at all". Most of the current "support" items fall under the latter category (e.g. Shard).
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items. Isnt this the same what I said?! I mean if the item is in the 800-1200 range it cant have much stats otherwise it would be too powerful. What do you dont like about shard? I mean 45 ap is not for every support similar to WotA but I like the idea of the active. I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you meant giving the Shurelya's treatment to these support items by gutting the self-stat cost-efficiency and shifting the gold value into the active.
Ah no keep the stats costefficient but give it an active or an aura so that you get the feeling of being a support and not just a cheap item for some stats.
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On July 15 2013 05:02 TheYango wrote:
The far more reliable way to guarantee supports buying the item is to actually make the cost-effectiveness on the items good (so as to ensure that they items are worth buying) but make the slot-effectiveness awful by pricing them in the 800-1200 gold range (so as to ensure that they're not worth a slot for laners). Sightstone pretty much hit this perfectly, but Riot has failed to adapt this over to other items.
The issue with that is how expensive base items are in comparison. 800-1200 gold range would pretty much mean you have to build out of regen items or armor, since they cost 180, 345, 300. everything else is very expensive.
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I think the obvious solution is to bring back Heart of Gold.
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I thought they already did that when they added in the sightstone.
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I dunno, this Aegis change makes a lot of sense to me, but I was saying Aegis is a toxic item like 20 pages ago.
The issue with it will be that it's likely still better on the jungler than the support. Seems really cost efficient compared to the existing Locket. 750 gold more and -15 armor, but 20 MR aura and 10 HP regen aura.
Since Aegis is only 150g cheaper, it'll still be very hard for supports to get quickly.
The lack of better support itemization is true and valid, but if this Locket change results in it being the obvious go to Jungle item, rebalancing the support items will be the next step I think.
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On July 15 2013 05:21 Requizen wrote:
I think the obvious solution is to bring back Heart of Gold.
but would it be worth buying it?
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On July 15 2013 04:45 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:40 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On July 15 2013 04:36 nafta wrote:
Phreak is pretty fun to listen to since he started actually trying :D.But riv is one of the few casters that just ruin the experience for me. I've always respected Phreak as a caster and a player even if he was nerdy because he generally knows what he's talking about. Phreak was good at this game before he worked for Riot and he's still better than like 98% of the world. I think he has two accounts in diamond or plat? Rivington was never good at this game, he's straight up silver 3 and it shows in his casting. It doesn't matter much if you are good imo.You don't have to be actually decent at the game to be a good caster.It's very rare for a caster to say something I didn't think already think about(pretty sure this goes for a lot of people) so it never really was a big deal for me. Deman is really nice to listen to and he fills the same role riv is supposed to.
Deman is my least favorite caster by far. I hate his stupid puns.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:31 Ketara wrote:
The lack of better support itemization is true and valid, but if this Locket change results in it being the obvious go to Jungle item, rebalancing the support items will be the next step I think.
I don't see why bringing the other support items to a sensible place requires gutting Locket first, when Locket is the most sensible measure of what a support item should accomplish that we currently have in the game.
Again, Aegis is only "toxic" due to the absolute vacuum left by the fact that there are virtually no alternative items that fill that supportive need acceptably. Everything else is either selfish itemization or just terrible.
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On July 15 2013 05:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:31 Ketara wrote:
The lack of better support itemization is true and valid, but if this Locket change results in it being the obvious go to Jungle item, rebalancing the support items will be the next step I think. I don't see why bringing the other support items to a sensible place requires gutting Locket first, when Locket is the most sensible measure of what a support item should accomplish that we currently have in the game. Again, Aegis is only "toxic" due to the absolute vacuum left by the fact that there are virtually no alternative items that fill that supportive need acceptably. Everything else is either selfish itemization or just terrible.
The reason why Aegis is toxic is because it's too good.
There are no alternative support items to Aegis because it's too good.
In order to make support items good enough to be alternatives to Aegis, they'd have to be SO good that you'd be buying them on junglers and top laners, because Aegis is so good that you're already supposed to be buying it on junglers and top laners instead.
Locket is in the exact same situation. It's too good.
By combining both of them it's basically saying the team can really only have one of these now otherwise it's inefficient. So the jungler gets that, now the support actually has things they can be doing with their gold, since before if the jungler got Aegis the support would get Locket (if they had gold) and vice versa. Then they can see what supports are doing with their new freedom in item choices, and if the goofy support items like Eleisa's Miracle are still crap compared to just getting more wards (prob gonna happen) they can then rebalance them.
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So since everything but those 2 items is garbage let's make them also garbage and that makes it all good?
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EPT
