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On July 13 2013 02:26 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:21 MattBarry wrote:On July 13 2013 02:20 cLutZ wrote:
People still build philo? Even if I do a charm start, I just sit on it or maybe build chalice if mana is my thing. Why not build philo. It gives good stats and gp/10. Even Lemonation agrees that philo is a good buy for soloqueue since you don't need to ward the whole map at 5 minutes unless you're in a pro game I'd rather just buy sightstone and start building towards my bigger ticket items. Sightstone is effectively a GP10 and I'd rather have more combat stats. At least that's how I feel.
It's situational, I'd never buy philo on say Leona. But Sona, Nami, and Lulu are really mana hungry supports, if you don't have that mana regen you run out of mana really quickly. Philo pays itself off pretty quickly too
On that note, Leona players who buy philo and kage's are too common and they kill me inside
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On July 13 2013 02:12 TheYango wrote:
Not maxing Q comes out of the fallacious idea that damage is unimportant on support skills, which is just wrong. It's the same logic that resulted in people taking years to realize that maxing Rocket Grab is actually quite good on Blitz, and not leaving it at level 1.
Incidentally, Aqua Prison has more or less the same per rank scaling as Rocket Grab (flat mana cost, 1 sec CD per rank, 55 damage per rank).
Edit: I'm wrong. Derp.
I still feel like maxing E gives you more than maxing Q on nami. If you put points in Q and miss that critical Q and it's the skill you're maxing, you're very liable to just get run over. Maxing E makes Q more reliable (bigger slow) and gives you a reliable backup tool when Q is missed. If you cast E (especially on yourself) and you're not using it immediately, it stays there giving a bit of threat for zoning. Such is not the case with Q.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2013 02:33 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:12 TheYango wrote:
Not maxing Q comes out of the fallacious idea that damage is unimportant on support skills, which is just wrong. It's the same logic that resulted in people taking years to realize that maxing Rocket Grab is actually quite good on Blitz, and not leaving it at level 1.
Incidentally, Aqua Prison has more or less the same per rank scaling as Rocket Grab (flat mana cost, 1 sec CD per rank, 55 damage per rank). Rocket grab is 2 sec cd per rank.
LoL Wiki
Rocket Grab RANGE: 925 COOLDOWN: 20 / 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 COST: 120 Mana
Nope.
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Blitzkrank doesn't have many "useful" laning skill beside his Q (yea, E is good, but usually only after managing a hook)
For someone as Nami though, her W is a legitimate skill to max too if you are getting out-traded. Its also a decent harass
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On July 13 2013 02:36 XenOmega wrote:
Blitzkrank doesn't have many "useful" laning skill beside his Q (yea, E is good, but usually only after managing a hook)
For someone as Nami though, her W is a legitimate skill to max too if you are getting out-traded. Its also a decent harass
If your adc cannot stop eating all the enemy's harass, W max is good to keep the idiot alive. Sort of like Sona W max
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can you rely on your support to be your main tank (say leona)
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On July 13 2013 02:31 Lord Tolkien wrote:
As noted, E+Q max are probably both good max paths, and only max W which is the pitfall for Nami.
As for Q vs. E max, E max requires you/your ADC get 3 autos off before the full damage comes into effect, whereas landing a Q means getting the full damage upfront.
I personally highly value the burst vs. over time factor of the damage. It's just much more valuable for that, and lowering the CDR on the bubble can be huge, and no scaling mana costs improve Nami's potentially tight mana economy, esp. in lane.
I said this before, but I max Tidecaller's Blessing if I feel that the laning phase will be longer and if landing one guaranteed bubble is worth more than two bubbles that aren't guaranteed. The increased slow on Blessing makes it easy to land a bubble.
As for Mikael's, it seems very situational, and usually that situation is a Fiddle support. It's very expensive, and chalice is only really useful on a support in lane whereas out of laning phase it loses a lot of usefulness. By the time my Mikael's is online, the ADC already has QSS as a 3rd item.
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Sorta, but most of the time when you take Leona, you want a team that can dive with you - which implies (but does not TOTALLY require) tankiness on other champions.
Alistar functions a little better as 'sole tank' because he gives you more disengage than Leona's engage-centric kit.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2013 02:31 Lord Tolkien wrote:The problem with Mikael's isn't that it's not a support item, moreso there are better support items. Lack of CDR discourages me, personally. 
What support wants to buy a 2500 gold item with primarily mana and mana regen? Not many.
What AP wants to buy a 2500 gold item with mana and mana regen? A lot of them. In fact, many of them already do.
Mikael's as a support item makes no sense to me given that it has virtually no stat-appropriateness for the vast majority of supports.
On July 13 2013 02:36 XenOmega wrote:
For someone as Nami though, her W is a legitimate skill to max too if you are getting out-traded. Its also a decent harass
The "usefulness" of Nami's W in trades completely ignores the idea of health/mana balance in lane as a support. Admittedly, this is something only really well executed by Korean supports to date.
Korean ADs/supports make sure to back while using up both their HP and mana. They manage their levels of each such that they try not to back with HP too low but mana to spare, or mana too low with HP to spare. Anything other than even usage of HP and mana is inefficient and smart mana usage is built on this idea that you should use up everything before the point when you want to go home.
The thing is, the health/mana balance of Nami's W is super lopsided. It's not really a good trading skill because of how badly it mucks up your health/mana balance when it spends mana that aggressively. It's primary use is in being able to double-tap your passive with 1 cast, but if you're using it as a sustain skill, you're either taking too much free damage, making really awkward trades with lopsided health/mana loss, or ending up in situations where you run out of mana before HP.
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On July 13 2013 02:37 Kenpachi wrote:
can you rely on your support to be your main tank (say leona)
I don't think you actually need a "tank" in certain team comps in league. Leona isn't going to be as beefy as junglers or top laners who build straight tank or nearly straight tank due to her lack of farm but she's still fairly beefy on a support budget because of W.
If you can quickly gib the enemy team's main damage (usually their mid and ADC) having a "tank" on your team isn't as vital as some people think. You could easily run a team like Kennen top, Eve jungle, and Diana mid to just dive the shit out of the enemy team's squishies.
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I found playing Nami Mid really hilarious. It all started in a normals game against a Pantheon after I was joking playing Nami mid and then my friend picked Lulu (because he didnt get jokes and the other 3 people facepalmed). Apparently starting level 1, your heal heals Pantheons spear and is free harass. Panth RQ lane and then the fed Lee Sin top came down and got destroyed by harass + heal also. I guess a similarity between the two is that they are melee and commit to fights by jumping to you (easy Q).
I also destroyed a Diana (similar characteristics, except weaker pre-6) and then a TF mid...
Scalability is of course an issue but her E with a ADC is pretty good late game. Her ratios aren't THAT bad anyhows...
But Nami is really fun because you can spam the laugh therefore she should be in Lux Tier.
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hitting yourself/allies with q procs your passive right?
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How do you play mid without any waveclear, at all? That does not sound like something that works.
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On July 13 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:
hitting yourself/allies with q procs your passive right?
Yep. Though the only real usage I've found for this is just speeding out of the base.
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On July 13 2013 02:31 Sandster wrote:
I agree that solo queue standard on supports is still faerie/rejuv + 3-4 ward start, and then buy philo if you don't have enough for a sight stone on your first back and not facing a full kill lane. You rarely, if ever, need to start with 6 wards in solo queue as a support. You're still expected to get some aura items as a solo queue support beyond ruby sightstone + oracles 35 min in the game.
Arranged 5s is obviously different.
My problem with Philo in SoloQ is that Reverie is mediocre now. 5% CDR and 80 HP less than S2 for only 100 gold less? Plus most teams being unable to take advantage of the active to do anything besides retreat after taking a turret?
Moreover, a lot of the time you are expected to get Aegis. And if i have sightstone, and I have Philo, and I'm building Aegis, well now I'm running out of inventory space. I probably want boots at some point. And now I have no space for a pink.
The second reason is why I really don't build philo.
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The problem with AP's getting mikaels is that they usually rather have zhonya's, and GA as a main defensive item.
Also on Q max on Nami; I think people also forget how good wave clear is on support. Not only do you do a fuckton of damage to enemies; you can punish them even harder for dying or leaving lane.
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On July 13 2013 03:01 Simberto wrote:
How do you play mid without any waveclear, at all? That does not sound like something that works.
Coincidentally I was playing against Pantheon and Lee sin, who both have shitty waveclears and are melee.
And yea, you learn to last hit under tower + freeze.
And yea, they were probably bad but it was hilarious.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 13 2013 03:06 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:01 Simberto wrote:
How do you play mid without any waveclear, at all? That does not sound like something that works. Coincidentally I was playing against Pantheon and Lee sin, who both have shitty waveclears and are melee. And yea, you learn to last hit under tower + freeze. And yea, they were probably bad but it was hilarious. + Show Spoiler +
Lee Sin's wave clear is pretty acceptable if you're E maxing; and transition into early tiamat.
Also; any thoughts on early Emblem of Valor on support?
I've recently been exploring starting rejuv bead into emblem of valor in aggressive lanes; or sometimes picking it up right after philo stone.
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On July 13 2013 03:04 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:31 Sandster wrote:
I agree that solo queue standard on supports is still faerie/rejuv + 3-4 ward start, and then buy philo if you don't have enough for a sight stone on your first back and not facing a full kill lane. You rarely, if ever, need to start with 6 wards in solo queue as a support. You're still expected to get some aura items as a solo queue support beyond ruby sightstone + oracles 35 min in the game.
Arranged 5s is obviously different. My problem with Philo in SoloQ is that Reverie is mediocre now. 5% CDR and 80 HP less than S2 for only 100 gold less? Plus most teams being unable to take advantage of the active to do anything besides retreat after taking a turret? Moreover, a lot of the time you are expected to get Aegis. And if i have sightstone, and I have Philo, and I'm building Aegis, well now I'm running out of inventory space. I probably want boots at some point. And now I have no space for a pink. The second reason is why I really don't build philo.
Well of course it's all situational. Even without building shurelia, philo often pays for itself since solo queue often has drawn out lane phases where the regen from philo more than pays for itself in letting you lane longer, and the money you make in buying wards and other stuff. boots, sighstone, philo, 1 ward spot (usually for pinks), and emblem of valor + 1 other piece of aegis is usually enough until you can buy the full aegis.
That being said if I'm playing against something like Leona then I'm rushing some health/resists asap and skipping the philo.
On July 13 2013 03:06 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:01 Simberto wrote:
How do you play mid without any waveclear, at all? That does not sound like something that works. Coincidentally I was playing against Pantheon and Lee sin, who both have shitty waveclears and are melee. And yea, you learn to last hit under tower + freeze. And yea, they were probably bad but it was hilarious. + Show Spoiler +
Pantheon and Lee Sin E are both good waveclears, and lee generally rushes Hydra these days to 1shot an entire wave 0_o
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On July 13 2013 01:13 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
Can a champion like Kog'maw ever be designed again? Referring to his passive here, which is kinda out of place on an ADC. I love him just for that though.
Maybe. I heard they stuck that passive on him because they thought they couldn't give him anything more ADC styled without making him stupid op.
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EPT
