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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:15 Gahlo wrote: Maybe. I heard they stuck that passive on him because they thought they couldn't give him anything more ADC styled without making him stupid op. Isn't Zyra's passive very similar? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:04 wei2coolman wrote: The problem with AP's getting mikaels is that they usually rather have zhonya's, and GA as a main defensive item. The fact that APs have better options doesn't suddenly make the stats more appropriate for a support either. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 13 2013 02:42 TheYango wrote: What support wants to buy a 2500 gold item with primarily mana and mana regen? Not many. What AP wants to buy a 2500 gold item with mana and mana regen? A lot of them. In fact, many of them already do. Mikael's as a support item makes no sense to me given that it has virtually no stat-appropriateness for the vast majority of supports. I get Mikael's on Sona, but not till really late in the game. Reeeeeally late. Chalice + Philo is really enough, very little reason to finish it. Don't need CDR from Athenes since CDR boots + a Kindlegem somewhere is going to cover that. Mikael's I think is one of those items that supports would be getting if they had more gold. | ||
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote: The fact that APs have better options doesn't suddenly make the stats more appropriate for a support either. Mikael's fits a nice niche of "get it when there's a zed and your adc has neither cleanse nor QSS and refuses to buy one" | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote: The fact that APs have better options doesn't suddenly make the stats more appropriate for a support either. Well; it's not like supports have the gold for it. (also in my original point; wasn't saying the item was appropriate for support, but just saying their are better options for AP, and explaining why it wasn't being picked up). S3 in pro play has essentially been; tier 2 boots + sightstone + philostone; and if they're really lucky, Locket or Aegis. I definitely buy mikaels on my support in solo queue if I'm way ahead and have a fuckton of gold. I actually think it's more worth using on your tanks; the +10% max health heal is so stupidly bonkers, that the heal feels more useful than just cleanse; cuz usually the delay is really noticeable if your ADC becomes caught (they're usually dead already cuz they got blown up) | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If Shurelya and Mikael lost some regen but got that treatment, I think they'd be better received. Then there's Eleisa's Miracle and Ohmwrecker which are still just not as good as the above two which supports are already not getting. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:21 Ketara wrote: I'd really like to see more items like Shard that keep the GP10 when they're upgraded. If Shurelya and Mikael lost some regen but got that treatment, I think they'd be better received. Then there's Eleisa's Miracle and Ohmwrecker which are still just not as good as the above two which supports are already not getting. Personally I'd like to see items like the old soul shroud; aoe CDR is an interesting concept. Ohmwrecker is extremely underrated. I'm really surprised we don't see more of it on teams who are insanely far ahead but don't have tower diving power. Like in Vulcun game vs C9 yesterday. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:21 Ketara wrote: I'd really like to see more items like Shard that keep the GP10 when they're upgraded. If Shurelya and Mikael lost some regen but got that treatment, I think they'd be better received. Then there's Eleisa's Miracle and Ohmwrecker which are still just not as good as the above two which supports are already not getting. Oh yea, I forgot that part as well. On supports with even mildly good AP scaling I find Morelonomnom to be better than the Philo upgrades. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Make it build out of an Emblem of Valor so that junglers can get it, and so that soloQ teams have better options when two players go for aegis without asking each other. It makes much more sense as an item if it's going to the char who actually might towerdive. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:18 MattBarry wrote: Mikael's fits a nice niche of "get it when there's a zed and your adc has neither cleanse nor QSS and refuses to buy one" Of those, only QSS removes Death Mark, and Mikael's is the only one that doesn't remove Ignite. TBH I'm not sure why Riot made Ohmwrecker build from a gp10 item in the first place, because that more or less killed the item. | ||
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beefhamburger
United States3962 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:32 TheYango wrote: TBH I'm not sure why Riot made Ohmwrecker build from a gp10 item in the first place, because that more or less killed the item. I thought it was because they wanted/expected supports to get it late game (even though it didn't happen anyways). | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
I remember playing a game as Sona against an Eve Jungle and both their top and mid were APs. My team was flaming me for not going Aegis when all I had to my name was a chalice and boots since I was too poor to buy sightstone when I'm constantly buying pink wards. Perhaps making wards slightly cheaper would help supports? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:52 kainzero wrote: There are a lot of great support items. It's just too bad supports don't have money, especially nowadays when supports are expected to ward the whole map and no one else helps out. Then it means those support items aren't so great. Support itemization should be costed in the range of 600-1500 gold with appropriate slot-inefficiency making up for good cost-efficiency. Anything from the 1500-2000 gold range (pretty much everything people call good support items) starts to fall in the range of things that cost enough and are slot-efficient enough for other roles to buy. I thought Riot had this figured out with Sightstone, but apparently they just got lucky. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On July 13 2013 02:42 TheYango wrote: What support wants to buy a 2500 gold item with primarily mana and mana regen? Not many. What AP wants to buy a 2500 gold item with mana and mana regen? A lot of them. In fact, many of them already do. Mikael's as a support item makes no sense to me given that it has virtually no stat-appropriateness for the vast majority of supports. The other side of the coin is: how many APs would want to buy an item without either CDR or AP on it? If given a choice between Mikael's or Athene's, I can't think of any AP champ that would go for the former over the latter: the latter even gives more mana through the passive. The issue is that for an AP, Athene's has basically every stat they could possibly want: 20% CDR is just huge, as is the chunk of AP it provides, on top of the MR/larger mana regen on kills & assists. And for only 100g more. The tradeoff of Mikael's vs Athene's for an AP is always going to be skewed towards the Athene's. The other champions that don't build Athene's are focused on building up a large mana pool and lets item scaling via RoA and Seraphs carry them through, so Ryze/Swain won't want it. Anivia probably doesn't either since again, Athene's is better. And indeed, if an AP absolutely needs a cleanse, QSS is a better stop-gap measure at 1550G than waiting to save up money for a 2500G item, and a Zhonyas often fills the role. As for Mikael's, you're pretty much spot on. The issue is that it builds out of Philo, so you're spending 1800G for a single target heal, a targetable cleanse, MR, and largely removing mana constraints for mana hungry ranged supports (melee supports would be nuts to buy it). Comparatively speaking, a QSS is 1550g for an improved cleanse (cleanses things Mikael's won't like Zed R) and has +5MR, but is only self-target. So it's a better tradeoff for a support to get it if the enemy team has a chain of single target CC and you're team is relatively squishy (so buying multiple QSS is grossly inefficient). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:57 Lord Tolkien wrote: how many APs would want to buy an item without either CDR or AP on it? This is simply not an argument. So long as the item gives me some stats I want cost-effectively, and so long as there are item choices to give me the other stats I want cost-effectively, it simply does not matter that *this particular item* does not give those stats. Both of those are true when it comes to Crucible. The only difference is that makes is that it affects what timings you can hit (all-rounder items that provide everything in a single item give you strong single-item timings, while lopsided items that pair with other items for overall effectiveness provide 2 or 3-item timings in combination with their sister items). But timing as a concept is so fluid and variable from game to game that such an item never being the right choice is an impossibility. On July 13 2013 03:57 Lord Tolkien wrote: And indeed, if an AP absolutely needs a cleanse, QSS is a better stop-gap measure at 1550G than waiting to save up money for a 2500G item, and a Zhonyas often fills the role. Except Mikael's is fundamentally more cost-efficient than QSS because the stat component is provided at greater efficiency, so for a champion that would buy the other component anyway, it is easier and more effective to buy Crucible than QSS. The only issue is that "champions who want Grail" is pretty much "champions who want Tear" right now because Tear is so powerful at the moment. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 13 2013 04:07 TheYango wrote: This is simply not an argument. So long as the item gives me some stats I want cost-effectively, and so long as there are item choices to give me the other stats I want cost-effectively, it simply does not matter that *this particular item* does not give those stats. Both of those are true when it comes to Crucible. The only difference is that makes is that it affects what timings you can hit (all-rounder items that provide everything in a single item give you strong single-item timings, while lopsided items that pair with other items for overall effectiveness provide 2 or 3-item timings in combination with their sister items). But timing as a concept is so fluid and variable from game to game that such an item never being the right choice is an impossibility. I think it's more comparable to GA; Similar cost, similar "no primary stats", somewhat similar usage. Which then turns up to the argument of GA vs QSS on an ADC. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Supports almost need a system like the boot enchant system. Like for 500-1000 gold you can append certain actives/passives onto an item like a Chalice or Kindlegem. Good things to workshop would be weaker versions of: Rylias Slow, Banshee's shield, Zhonyas (probably OP and unworkable), Morellnomnom passive, Randuins, Banner, Ohmwrecker. All that in addition to lowering the costs/keeping GP10 on Shurelias, Crucible, and Twin Shadows. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
There's just no one right now that needs that much mana regen, doesn't have higher priority stats and auras, and is in a good position to maximize the utility of the item. Maybe if Zilean became a thing, like if TSM didn't royally screw up yesterday. | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 13 2013 03:01 kainzero wrote: Yep. Though the only real usage I've found for this is just speeding out of the base. You don't notice it a lot of the time, but if you/an ally gets jumped on, the passive proc really helps them to get away. Aiming the Q on your ally instead of the enemy makes a world of difference in those situations. I'm pretty huge fan of building Athene's on poke/pure supports. Chalice is an amazing lane item, and having the CDR and mana regen on Athene's is really helpful in long fights. I only ever build Crucible on Taric for super heal n' peel, and I don't even like it that much there. | ||
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