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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
if you cant siege well you can always just bait baron and dragon going on vayne as naut seems like a terrible idea, you should probably focus on anivia or just hook a tank and get an easy charm because anivia vayne cant exactly go in and chase the problem with vayne is you're scared to go in because youcan get cc'd and insta gibbed while if you try to go on her solo then she can just kite and kill 1 by 1 | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:36 Requizen wrote: Screw it yolo tired queue sounds like fun Ha, this is the first step to you uninstalling again. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:36 onlywonderboy wrote: Ha, this is the first step to you uninstalling again. The biggest part of setting up laning for IH's is that it cuts out a lot of inefficient usage of time. If I want to improve my laning phase, I don't really want to spend an extra 20 min in a solo queue game when it's not laning phase. | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:32 Alaric wrote: Recent game was Lee, Nautilus (me jungling), Ahri, Draven, Nami. Opposing team had Elise (jungle), Vayne, Anivia, Malphite, Taric. I was able to walk in without taking much damage, ulting half their team to get Vayne, then sit on top of her (once passive + E were spent I couldn't compete with Tumble obviously), she usually didn't do much until I was around half HP and most of their team turned on me, however we always lost the fights. Nami wasn't good is one thing (I used my hard cc to get Vayne out, so it was up to the others to interrupt Anivia's ult, and Nami had the best spell for that), but it mostly came from the teamcomps. Lee, Ahri are skill-shot reliants champions so the simple presence of Elise and her free sponges was enough to cripple their viable angles of approach. We also had shit dps (Naut sucks, esp. since they gutted his shield by 25% of its damage, Ahri is mediocre once her ult is spent) with Draven being trashed on by Malph (no AS, and MS slow so he can't get his axes). Draft went: Elise - Ahri Nautilus - Anivia Vayne - Lee Sin Draven - Malphite Taric - Nami Draven because they had Vayne, despite him being less dominant, and more importantly after Anivia despite him lacking mobility and slows hurting his ability to deal sustained damage by catching axes. Also low range making sieging towers hard. Lee Sin was a mediocre pick too considering the Elise (could go top or mid, spiderlings to reduce his damage in lane or tank his Qs during sieges/fights) and our already debatable scaling with Ahri+Naut (Lee+Draven was just part of the combo). Then they picked Malphite to shit all over Draven in fights and have their initiations (apart from a cocoon). Nami-Draven should have been the superior lane to Vayne-Taric, however between Nami being bad and a few screw-ups from my part, we ended up trading kills several times, which favoured Vayne (also too slow, allowed Elise to clean-up several times). Since we couldn't kill towers easily (Lee didn't roam much despite crushing Malph so we relied on Draven who's one, if not the, worst ADs to kill them) and Anivia is a pretty retarded champion, we weren't able to leverage a midgame lead to snowball, nor to force them to fight on our terms in open grounds to nullify Malphite's and Anivia's zone control. Doesn't matter our initiation or my ability to stick to Vayne, with such a draft we were pretty boned from the start. So it's not always the players.  They took Elise first, then Ahri and Naut for us, followed by Vayne and Anivia for them, and L i'm not sure if this sort of analysis is productive, because although teamcomps do influence the game, they usually matter much less in soloq than just getting a big lead early game, especially from the perspective of a jungler with strong ganks. if there weren't any troll picks, don't give other players' champion picks and teamfight matchups too much weight - this easily leads to teammate blaming, which isn't productive. look at what could have been done during the laning phase on your part instead, such as keeping better track of summoner cooldowns to gank and using wards to watch roams and set up counterganks | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:36 Slayer91 wrote: you're really blaming teamcomp on a loss? if you cant siege well you can always just bait baron and dragon going on vayne as naut seems like a terrible idea, you should probably focus on anivia or just hook a tank and get an easy charm because anivia vayne cant exactly go in and chase Not saying it was all the teamcomp, but in that case I believe under "even" circumstances theirs was alot stronger and harder to deal with than ours (more ours being somewhat shit unless you get hugely behind early-mid than theirs being particularly strong though). We tried to bait these kind of fights but Nami got caught pretty often, dying without even using a single spell (for example she wards the bush behind red, noone, instead of warding inside the pit from the wall she walked right into the river without vision—we barely saved her this time). Thing is I could hook Taric and we burst him down and proceed from here, which is what we did in the midgame several times (still not enough to towerdive them 5v4 though, because of Anivia and Malphite's cc/zone control, and Elise + Vayne being annoying to pin down with our comp) so even if he died it didn't give us the necessary edge to push, and there was the risk of the team trying to keep fighting (because "we're 5v4, we'll win!") despite their big CDs being down, and failing to pin people (Vayne/Anivia/Elise pretty strong in those long fights compared to Naut's low damage and long cds and Draven being more vulnerable). This is more a soloQ problem (coordination and all that) than strictly a teamcomp one, sure, but with a better comp we wouldn't have had to resort to these risky tactics. I was always wary of hooking Malph or Taric for fear of the team going too deep (which happened several times), esp. knowing than Malph wouldn't get 100-0'd and would get a free initiation on our backline all piling up for him. We'd probably have had a better time letting pretty big Lee splitpush and extending the laning phase so Malph can't bring his utility and we can work on denying Vayne to build up Draven. However, this also would have needed more coordination, warding, and playing cautiously. Compare to Anivia "herp derp press R they can't push till next wave". There's not only the "worse" team compositions, for me, but also the compositions that require a lot more thought/coordination to work, which is a pretty big liability in soloQ. Edit: let's try a TL;DR then. When you pick LB it's not that she's not viable or good, but you know you'll be pressured to do well early because it'll get harder later on. Some teamcomps are this way where it's not that they're strictly bad, but they're harder to make work/doesn't scale as well so they require more effort from your part than the enemy would need to achieve the same odds, thus more pressure on you to do more/better stuff. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:41 wei2coolman wrote: The biggest part of setting up laning for IH's is that it cuts out a lot of inefficient usage of time. If I want to improve my laning phase, I don't really want to spend an extra 20 min in a solo queue game when it's not laning phase. Yeah, I'd like to just do some 1v1 against better players, my laning is pretty suspect as well. Well my whole game is suspect but that's besides the point ha. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:41 wei2coolman wrote: The biggest part of setting up laning for IH's is that it cuts out a lot of inefficient usage of time. If I want to improve my laning phase, I don't really want to spend an extra 20 min in a solo queue game when it's not laning phase. There really is something to be said if you want to seriously learn how to play to set up a couple teams with the understanding that for 1-2 hours you're going to play the first 10 minutes of a game and then immediately stop and remake the game, and do that 10+ times. But, one step at a time I'd imagine. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:48 onlywonderboy wrote: Yeah, I'd like to just do some 1v1 against better players, my laning is pretty suspect as well. Well my whole game is suspect but that's besides the point ha. It's really weird; I always come out of the lane as an ADC always fucking behind (it's my most hated role); but I'm 6-0 with ADC's. I'm fucking silsol of silver when it comes to adc. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
I probably don't need to tell everyone how successful Navi's mini-lessons were because there are probably enough people here who benefited from them that still remember. Obviously not everyone will teach that well, but that's the sort of thing to strive for. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:55 TheYango wrote: Or just arrange one-on-ones between players who want to teach and players who want to learn. I probably don't need to tell everyone how successful Navi's mini-lessons were because there are probably enough people here who benefited from them that still remember. Obviously not everyone will teach that well, but that's the sort of thing to strive for. brb going to go beg Navi for lessons. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I begged Navi for lessons. 10/10 would do again he's amazing. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:41 Clinic wrote: i'm not sure if this sort of analysis is productive, because although teamcomps do influence the game, they usually matter much less in soloq than just getting a big lead early game, especially from the perspective of a jungler with strong ganks. if there weren't any troll picks, don't give other players' champion picks and teamfight matchups too much weight - this easily leads to teammate blaming, which isn't productive. look at what could have been done during the laning phase on your part instead, such as keeping better track of summoner cooldowns to gank and using wards to watch roams and set up counterganks It is productive because you could've chosen a better character. You can't control what others pick, but you can control what you pick. Even more so, it's much easier to play AoE in solo Q than one with many single target stuns. Single-target pick comps are very reliant on having a strong early-mid game before the enemy can group up and have dominant teamfight, a problem that is very well exacerbated in solo. | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:57 kainzero wrote: It is productive because you could've chosen a better character. You can't control what others pick, but you can control what you pick. Even more so, it's much easier to play AoE in solo Q than one with many single target stuns. Single-target pick comps are very reliant on having a strong early-mid game before the enemy can group up and have dominant teamfight, a problem that is very well exacerbated in solo. the original post wasn't at all about how he could've chosen a better character, which i agree would at least be more productive - it was about how 'Doesn't matter our initiation or my ability to stick to Vayne, with such a draft we were pretty boned from the start. So it's not always the players. '. with no mention in the entire post of what champs as an alternative to naut would have improved the draft. that's not a mindset conducive to turning the loss into a lesson, if anything, down the line it results in that guy in champ select telling everyone which champions to pick and complaining about bad drafts | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:57 TheYango wrote: He doesn't come back to the US for like another week and a half, so good luck getting a lesson on awful hours playing games at 2500 ping. I can wait. I've been bad the entire time I've played this game, few more weeks aren't gonna kill me haha. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:55 TheYango wrote: Or just arrange one-on-ones between players who want to teach and players who want to learn. I probably don't need to tell everyone how successful Navi's mini-lessons were because there are probably enough people here who benefited from them that still remember. Obviously not everyone will teach that well, but that's the sort of thing to strive for. I've found that while you're doing those 1v1's, which while they are EXTREMELY helpful, they aren't quite as good as a real game because you end up doing things you wouldn't do in real games through knowledge that there's no jungler waiting in the wings. I realize they're different games, but I used to do tabletop strategy gaming (Field of Glory) on an international level, went overseas for international championships several times, although the best the US team ever got was 2nd place, England too op. The way we used to practice as a team for specific opponents was play the first 30 minutes of a matchup 5 or 6 times (games were 3.5-4 hours). We'd play out 30 minutes, then stop and discuss the game and discuss who had an advantage, and then pick everything up and immediately replay the game, and just do that over and over till we felt like we had the entire early part of the game figured out. It's SO much better than actually playing whole games in terms of learning how to build an early lead. When you play whole games over and over it's easy to lose focus of that tiny mistake you made 5 minutes in that reverberated throughout the rest of the game. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:08 Ketara wrote: I've found that while you're doing those 1v1's, which while they are EXTREMELY helpful, they aren't quite as good as a real game because you end up doing things you wouldn't do in real games through knowledge that there's no jungler waiting in the wings. I didn't necessarily mean 1v1 lane practice, haha. I just meant one-on-one training. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
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