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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
Thanks. I was a protoss main...just trying to be racially fair. But yea, zerg was pretty dumb. There was a period of time when all they did was macro and defend all ins. edit: and oh god PvP. I somehow enjoyed BW ZvZ though. Not quite sure whats different but...yea... | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:36 TheYango wrote: Well no, that depends on the power of defender's advantage in a given game. It's very possible to have scenarios where you are winning but can't actually make additional pressure due to the fact that defender's advantage in a given situation outweighs the size of your advantage. The extreme case was what happened in DotA a few years back, when buybacks had no CD and were cheaper and TPs had fixed channel time rather than increasing per person TPing to the same location, resulting in hour-and-a-half farmfest games because even if one team got an advantage, it was rarely enough to actually make anything happen because the defender's advantage in most attacking situations just outweighed their comparative gold/level advantage. that raises the question of how significant defender's advantage is in league, and while 'significant' is subjective I think current high level pro play indicates that it isn't sufficient to draw out games long enough for the defenders to have a chance of winning | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The question is whether there SHOULD be more of a defender's advantage or not. Which is not an easy game design question to answer. On the one hand it increases the likelihood of comebacks due to providing more time/space/options for the losing team to come back, but on the other it also has a tendency to make games longer and spread out the action. A lot of it comes down to player/spectator preference, but I'm not sure there's any good data on which is generally preferred. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:43 TheYango wrote: Yes. The question is whether there SHOULD be more of a defender's advantage or not. Which is not an easy game design question to answer. On the one hand it increases the likelihood of comebacks due to providing more time/space/options for the losing team to come back, but on the other it also has a tendency to make games longer and spread out the action. I didn't like Season 2 defenders advantage; but I feel like there's no punishment for teams who run mid-game comps transitioning into late game in Season 3. The relative power curve doesn't drop enough into late game imo. I don't mind if teams like C9 close out games in like 35 minutes; but there's a thing to be said for a team that can FORCE the late game with a weak midgame comp; but strong lategame comp. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:41 ReketSomething wrote: Thanks. I was a protoss main...just trying to be racially fair. But yea, zerg was pretty dumb. There was a period of time when all they did was macro and defend all ins. edit: and oh god PvP. I somehow enjoyed BW ZvZ though. Not quite sure whats different but...yea... Let's get ready to play WHO CAN 4 GATE FASTEST! | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:45 wei2coolman wrote: I didn't like Season 2 defenders advantage; but I feel like there's no punishment for teams who run mid-game comps transitioning into late game in Season 3. The relative power curve doesn't drop enough into late game imo. I don't mind if teams like C9 close out games in like 35 minutes; but there's a thing to be said for a team that can FORCE the late game with a weak midgame comp; but strong lategame comp. Part of having a strong late game comp is to have a champion that can stall the midgame. Take for example Anivia S2. CLG EU would just take anivia and stall out the midgame into lategame with a good lategame comp every game. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:48 ReketSomething wrote: Part of having a strong late game comp is to have a champion that can stall the midgame. Take for example Anivia S2. CLG EU would just take anivia and stall out the midgame into lategame with a good lategame comp every game. Yeah "Defenders Advantage" in League I think is a teamcomp oriented thing. Some champions are just much better at defending than others, Anivia and Lux being likely the best examples. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
I would love to participate in organized IH 5s; kudos to you guys for trying to set that up for people. Whether I'd actually be able to is another story but I'd certainly spectate every so often if I can. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:49 Ketara wrote: Yeah "Defenders Advantage" in League I think is a teamcomp oriented thing. Some champions are just much better at defending than others, Anivia and Lux being likely the best examples. The only thing that changed by Riot is that new champs can dive towers and gtfo without much pain and suffering. Before Anivia's wall actually stopped people. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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silencefc
United States875 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:49 Ketara wrote: Yeah "Defenders Advantage" in League I think is a teamcomp oriented thing. Some champions are just much better at defending than others, Anivia and Lux being likely the best examples. The problem is there's no reward for being able to stall the game pace with an inherently weaker mid game comp. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:49 Ketara wrote: Yeah "Defenders Advantage" in League I think is a teamcomp oriented thing. Some champions are just much better at defending than others, Anivia and Lux being likely the best examples. Well there's fundamentally a defender's advantage associated with pretty much offensive action in League. Terrain advantage of breaking base, vision advantage in your own jungle, having a tower defending a tower, Baron/Dragon debuffs when contesting Baron/Dragon, etc. Additionally, there are a couple other issues we've discussed before on this forum. For example, items with steep cost/slot-efficiency tradeoffs fundamentally favor the losing team, because it means that the winning team's stat advantage is underrepresented by their gold advantage. If you have more gold to spend, you can buy bigger items, but if those bigger items are less cost-effective, you get less of a stat advantage than your gold advantage represents. Conversely, if you buy small items to maintain your stat advantage, you will cap out on items sooner, and you will waste some of your gold advantage when you have to sell items to continue buying more stats. This is actually quite relevant to the way the game changed in S3, given how Riot made certain cost-effective midgame items more slot-effective by giving them lategame build paths (Aegis by far the most notable, but also Brutalizer, Guise, etc.). | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:48 ReketSomething wrote: Part of having a strong late game comp is to have a champion that can stall the midgame. Take for example Anivia S2. CLG EU would just take anivia and stall out the midgame into lategame with a good lategame comp every game. Yes you need a staller. Something like Anivia-Nasus can stall at an inner turret for days. Generally, I see a few generalized problems for stall comps that are not (entirely) Riots doing, and I don't see easy ways to fix. 1. Top/Bot inner turrets are death traps to defend. 2. It is easier to poke someone under turret than it is to avoid poke while trying to waveclear. 3. You "late game" AD needs to be farming, probably meaning you are 4v5 somewhere. 4. No control over blue/red. So your AD can't chase if a fight breaks out, and your waveclear is gated, a lot. 5. Fog of war/rotation by a coordinated team means they will always find a way to get free damage on a turret. 6. Baron control. 7. [Most importantly] Being aggressive is much easier than being reactive. The only thing that holds back aggression during the early-midgame is creep damage and the possibility of re-enforcements appearing out of the fog. At a cruciale tower siege, you know its gonna be 5v5, and if you are a midgame comp, you probably have some kind of herp-derp engage like Malph/Rumble + Zac/Jarvan + Orianna. These things are twice as easy to execute as they are to defend against, its the C9 version of needing to ban Malph/Amumu in Bronze/Silver. | ||
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.AK
United States561 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:50 WaveofShadow wrote: FINALLY caught up. I would love to participate in organized IH 5s; kudos to you guys for trying to set that up for people. Whether I'd actually be able to is another story but I'd certainly spectate every so often if I can. One of the things that I always thought would make IHs easier would be to have a dedicated vent/ts/skype channel for people to go to when looking to play with members of TL. Having a place where you can pop in, see a couple people playing, and join in for the next one makes the game a lot more enjoyable (if there is 5 people on, bam it becomes an inhouse). Plus you are already getting that slight competitive advantage because you are talking and not typing which makes communication easier. I know I would play a lot more with TL members if there was a vent that 20 people cycled in and out of throughout the day. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 26 2013 03:52 Ketara wrote: BTW Yango, tomorrows TROLLS test is blue Corki. You coming? VODS. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 26 2013 04:01 .AK wrote: One of the things that I always thought would make IHs easier would be to have a dedicated vent/ts/skype channel for people to go to when looking to play with members of TL. Having a place where you can pop in, see a couple people playing, and join in for the next one makes the game a lot more enjoyable (if there is 5 people on, bam it becomes an inhouse). Plus you are already getting that slight competitive advantage because you are talking and not typing which makes communication easier. I know I would play a lot more with TL members if there was a vent that 20 people cycled in and out of throughout the day. This exists, just not everyone uses it. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
Apparently, it's been going on for at least an hour... No loss forgiven either. Cool. | ||
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.AK
United States561 Posts
Then I would be promoting that instead of whatever liquidparty is currently in favor. For me it is a lot more fun going into a comm room and hearing actual people talking instead of words on a screen. | ||
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