On July 05 2013 23:57 ptrpb wrote: fuck all this league, dota, starcraft bitching when's kespa going to pick up fighting games? THE MOST SUPERIOR ESPORT
hmm yeah since MBCGame has been gone I don't think fighting games have been on korean TV.
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
What? Do you fail to comprehend what I'm saying? Sorry but I don't talk to people who call me ignorant while they fail to even show basic reading comprehension.
let's put it this way:
let's assume that checkers/draughts is more popular than chess worldwide. we all know checkers is the easier game, fast to pick up and quick to play. however, those passionate about strategy games (through whatever medium eg. board, PC) know that checkers is nothing compared to chess. in terms of challenge, depth, possibilities...nothing.
On July 05 2013 23:57 ptrpb wrote: fuck all this league, dota, starcraft bitching when's kespa going to pick up fighting games? THE MOST SUPERIOR ESPORT
On July 05 2013 06:46 Lmui wrote: I'm somewhat surprised by the amount of people that think LoL doesn't have that many dedicated viewers. theOddOne and Voyboy consistently hit 30k+ viewers just streaming, LCS regularly breaks 150k viewers for a weekly four game show and that spikes up much higher for large tournaments. The OGN spring finals had ~900k IIRC across livestreams, which doesn't include the people watching it on TV/live in korea.
Don't hate on how "easy" LoL is to play until you actually try it. It might not require the APM of starcraft but it places much more emphasis on reaction time and team coordination. (I'm pretty decent at LoL, D4 which is approximately equivalent to top 5 masters or so in SC2)
Not particularly hard to see why kespa chose to add LoL though. It's a massive game in Korea and has a large audience across the world.
Edit:: Feel free to join the the discussion of LoL, pokemon, costco and other assorted topics in the LoL GD thread here
I mean you do make some solid points, though I fail to comprehend why you use peak concurrent for viewership indication, but a lot of people seem to enjoy doing that, so w/e. What really grinds my gears is your second paragraph. Did you never touch any other moba? People don't (or shouldn't) bitch about lol being easier than star 2, ofc it is moba is just removing makro and a large amount of multitasking from rts, the issue is that lol is literally the easiest, most dumbed down, game of it's genre. They removed being able to deny creeps, there is no courrier (unless they added it by now) and that list goes on forever, but I think someone who actually plays a lot of moba should tell you, I don't see why I'd touch a castrated rts when I can just play a real one. But seriously LoL is by far one of the most dumbed down games of the 21st century, basically the cod of moba.
Do you think LoL has consistently more fans/viewers and players because it is easier than Dota2 and SC2 or... could it be that it's just more fun?
I used to play BW, I used to play SC2, I used to play Dota2 (used to play the original Dota WC3 custom map consistently as well) and guess what?
Still playing LoL. It took me a while to start though, because so many peope (particularly on TL) were spewing shit about how it was nothing but a cheap knockoff. Now I won't even try to argue that LoL isn't as easy as you might think, nobody wants to hear that, but I will say that a harder game is not automatically a better game.
edit: By the way, it irks me that SC2/Dota2 people speak of LoL as if they had any kind of high ground when it comes to the difficulty in their game. Did any of you even play BW? SC2 is like finger painting compared to that. Though what is even more baffling is that you would think you are somehow better, somehow cooler, somehow more of a "real gamer" than anyone else based on which game you play. Nobody is impressed, what the fuck are you doing?
Yeah I do and I still play brood war on atleast a weekly base, daily if I had the time. I'm not saying you are shit if you play LoL I'm saying it's the easiest possible moba, and yeah I do think thats why it has the largest popularity. I mean lets look back at fps pc games when they were still popular. Quake is way way harder than cs, but cs eventually took over. Hell even console fps started esports wise at halo 1 which is basically quake ported on a console (in terms of multiplayer) and it was dumbed down all the way to cod bo2 nowadays. The easiest game will always be the most popular one as people don't enjoy challenges that are really hard, they enjoy achievements, they enjoy feeling like they are "good" they enjoy doing shit with their friends (thus team games will always be more popular than 1 v 1) and they love unlocking shit. While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something. It's an issue of society and people prefer to view the easy path as more fun. Again I couldn't care less how others view me or w/e, and if I'd had made star 2 it wouldn't have automine, autorally, ulbs and all that shit, but I actually enjoy sucking at games and putting hours and hours of time (that I don't even have nowadays) into them to become decent and star 2 has a decent popularity while bw is dead so thats where I spent my time. I just find it sad that two of the most popular games in esports these days are also the most dumbed down ones of their genre (lol and cod), and thats just my personal opinion as I prefer to be "holy fuck I can't even comprehend how he did that" over "meh my 12 years old cousin could do that too" when watching esports.
"While in bw, and even to a certain extend in star 2, you have to put hours and hour into it to be actually able to play properly, anyone can just play a bunch of games of lol and feel like they accomplished something."
Because playing a bunch of games of League of Legends and putting hours and hours into Starcraft 2 are somehow different. Please inform me of how playing a "bunch" of LoL games isn't putting hour and hours into it.
Your ignorance amuses me. Please continue.
What? Do you fail to comprehend what I'm saying? Sorry but I don't talk to people who call me ignorant while they fail to even show basic reading comprehension.
let's put it this way:
let's assume that checkers/draughts is more popular than chess worldwide. we all know checkers is the easier game, fast to pick up and quick to play. however, those passionate about strategy games (through whatever medium eg. board, PC) know that checkers is nothing compared to chess. in terms of challenge, depth, possibilities...nothing.
Ya..... This needs to stop. The comparisons you use are the same god awful ones used since BW/SC2. "Skill ceiling" and "easier to play" have ZERO impact on how the game is played at a competitive level. I won't even go into all the reasons as to why trying to compare LoL to SC2 or BW is hilariously unproductive. It should really be self-evident after the 10 other threads from the past with LoL/SC2 skill comparisons that the argument leads NOWHERE.
Is SC2 a game where an individual won every single tournament he entered forever, how about BW? No, never ever has a game reached a "skill ceiling", the term is absolutely non-existent in anything.The term itself is only hypothetical pseudo-intellectual masturbation to make the fans of a "superior" game feel great about how objectively better their game is.
LoL has a lower individual skill ceiling than bw/sc2/dota but that doesnt make the game easy per say. The room for fuck ups and comebacks are much smaller, the harder the game the easier it is for comebacks since misstakes are more common. And one other thing LoL has managed better than other games is bring in females, theyve managed to make it appeling for this untapped market. Anyway if Kespa doesnt decide to scrap Sc2 completly some money will trickle down, it allways does.
On July 06 2013 02:39 deichkind wrote: LoL has a lower individual skill ceiling than bw/sc2/dota but that doesnt make the game easy per say. The room for fuck ups and comebacks are much smaller, the harder the game the easier it is for comebacks since misstakes are more common. And one other thing LoL has managed better than other games is bring in females, theyve managed to make it appeling for this untapped market. Anyway if Kespa doesnt decide to scrap Sc2 completly some money will trickle down, it allways does.
This is a great example of what I was just talking about right above you. Let me critique your post for you.
First sentence: You mention "skill ceiling" as a justification for the following sentence, best part is you actually add the qualifier of "individual" which renders the entire justification obsolete since LoL is not an individual game.
Second sentence: The "skill ceiling"(doesn't exist and is entirely irrelevant if it did) being lower somehow proves that mistakes and comebacks are less common. This is a non-sequitur argument as mistakes and comebacks are not reliant on the non-existent skill ceiling of the game, but on the relative skill of the players of the game.
Don't care about the other sentences as they are unrelated to "skill ceiling". Please kill this term.
On July 06 2013 02:39 deichkind wrote: LoL has a lower individual skill ceiling than bw/sc2/dota but that doesnt make the game easy per say. The room for fuck ups and comebacks are much smaller, the harder the game the easier it is for comebacks since misstakes are more common. And one other thing LoL has managed better than other games is bring in females, theyve managed to make it appeling for this untapped market. Anyway if Kespa doesnt decide to scrap Sc2 completly some money will trickle down, it allways does.
This is a great example of what I was just talking about right above you. Let me critique your post for you.
First sentence: You mention "skill ceiling" as a justification for the following sentence, best part is you actually add the qualifier of "individual" which renders the entire justification obsolete since LoL is not an individual game.
Second sentence: The "skill ceiling"(doesn't exist and is entirely irrelevant if it did) being lower somehow proves that mistakes and comebacks are less common. This is a non-sequitur argument as mistakes and comebacks are not reliant on the non-existent skill ceiling of the game, but on the relative skill of the players of the game.
Don't care about the other sentences as they are unrelated to "skill ceiling". Please kill this term.
I agree with you Yes, skill ceiling is a vague concept that people put out to make other people feel bad or something. We all know that SC2 is easier than BW, and BW is easier than WC1 or Dune, but why does it matter? If BW skill ceiling is infinity, then SC2 is infinity-1, does it matter that much since noone will gonna reach it anyway?
This clip sums up a lot of good point
Also I think alot of people mistake between "skill floor" and "skill ceiling". If your house is built with floor 3 feet higher than my house, and your ceiling ends up 3 feet higher than my ceiling, is it really that your house is bigger than mine? Just because a house has higher floor than another doesn't mean the ceiling will be higher, for all you know, your floor is 3ft higher than mine, but your whole house is only 1ft higher than mine, I doubt we can be proud of that.
"Low skill floor" will encourage more people to play the game, while "High floor" will make it harder for people to get into the house. Yes, it require you to have something special (taller than normal), or work harder than normal to get in the high floor house, but essentially it's just a handicap by design to filter people out, and give nothing to indicate that the ceiling will be higher.
On July 05 2013 23:57 ptrpb wrote: fuck all this league, dota, starcraft bitching when's kespa going to pick up fighting games? THE MOST SUPERIOR ESPORT
hmm yeah since MBCGame has been gone I don't think fighting games have been on korean TV.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Which is hilarious because then you see how noob friendly LoL is, and how popular it got.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Which is hilarious because then you see how noob friendly LoL is, and how popular it got.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizzard had predicted the future and figured out that a games like League would be so popular. Then I remember that no one thought that league would become as popular as it is, including the people who made league.
Oh, if only SC2 was made so we only needed to control one unit and used at max 10 keys. Then it would be huge.
On July 04 2013 14:14 Empirimancer wrote: Sometimes I try to imagine how popular SC2 would be in Korea if it had been as accessible as Brood War in internet cafes and if bnet 2.0 had been well designed.
Then I get depressed and I think about something else.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizz dev team didn't make Starcraft 2 so noob friendly to keep the competitive level harsh just like BW. Surely a high percentage of Pro Koreans would've have switched to Starcraft 2 keeping the player base and viewer base the same to the new game.
Which is hilarious because then you see how noob friendly LoL is, and how popular it got.
Sometimes I try to imagine if Blizzard had predicted the future and figured out that a games like League would be so popular. Then I remember that no one thought that league would become as popular as it is, including the people who made league.
Oh, if only SC2 was made so we only needed to control one unit and used at max 10 keys. Then it would be huge.
MARIIINNEEESS
Jk, I play terran and mass rine sucks.
edit: misread "control 1 unit" for "control 1 type of unit"
I can imagine that a couple of years in the future and KeSPA will completely move on to LoL and give SC2 the cold shoulder.
I'm not a fan of LoL so this is pretty depressing news to me that SC2 is getting overshadowed by another game. Even though by all means LoL deserved this much success.
EPT
