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LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
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On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
sad but true
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On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree.
Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:11 SidianTheBard wrote:
At least they are smart and picking up LoL over Dota2. LoL is already getting huge in Korea so I see it being still a huge success. sc2 & LoL...I love it.
GOM is picking up dota2, so no need to compete with them on that
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On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/
Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth.
Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise.
The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc.
Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different.
Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished.
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
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On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta.
So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
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On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:
Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
You make a few good points. I'd say there is progression with the supports though especially in Korea. As for the simpler layout/graphics/items/etc. I actually find that more appealing personally because I find the game much easier to follow compared to Dota.
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i think this is exactly the right step for proleague. seeing the studio totally empty hurts me so much.
however, lol is number one right now and people have to accept that. sc2 scene should use it to it's advantage (as it is hopefully doing with this proleague reform).
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I personally find LoL to be a well-designed, fun game to play. I first started playing in late 2010 and was hooked ever since.
Trying to play dota, whether dota1 in high school or dota2 recently, was a frustrating experience. There was too much unnecessary complexity and rote memorization involved for me.
For example: Things that go through magic immunity and what actually goes through.
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all
I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know  ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
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On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game.
It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
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On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
But does what stream foreigners are watching OSL on have that big of a say in the Korean market? It's just a matter of picking what casters you like the most and watching that stream. Wouldn't their concern be more about how many people are coming to watch SC2 matches live vs how many are coming to watch the LoL matches live?
The Korean audience should have a bigger influence on OGN/KeSPA than SC2 and LoL's foreign audiences and what streams they prefer to view.
On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well.
hehe, your post made me think of this.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
I can't comment on Dota since I don't have enough knowledge on that particular game, but I can say that your portrayal of LoL is quite inaccurate. Here are the statements I have issue with in order of your comments on them.
1. "Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2."
This argument is verrrrry old, and is not an accurate representation of the current competitive LoL scene at all. For example yesterdays LCS matches had lvl 1 buff control fights in around half the matches. This is risk play, it is a different kind of risk play than what is in Dota however that does not disqualify it from being risk play. The tower in LoL are stronger, but that is not where the risky early fights are to occur in the majority of circumstances. Neutral buffs in league create more than enough risk play than what is offset by stronger towers.
2. " Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs."
This is often said, but the logic of it escapes me. The team most likely to be getting kills is the team that has a lead. Thus this mechanic will punish the losing team far greater than the winning team, creating a "snowball" effect far greater than if it was simply a gold gain on kill with no gold loss on death.
3. "Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized."
LoL has 114 champions, homogenous kits has never been an issue with players. The pro scene in particular has never had any complaint about homogenized champions.
4. "Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished."
Have any players of LoL or Dota hit a level of skill where they 100% of the time play mechanically perfectly? I can't think of such a case, so I don't know why skill ceiling is mentioned.
5."Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane."
This is where I understood you don't follow the LoL competitive scene at all. It is a regular thing for lane swaps to occur in any competitive match. Don't forget how AD casters were also made relevant again. Next you talk about how jungle is not a viable lane, well ya it is not a lane. Jungle is not some concept you can compare to Dota and have 1:1 match. I assume carries in Dota typically don't build tank items; it's the same in league, jungle is more akin to a support than a carry.
The decisions for itemization may very well be more limited than Dota, but it is ludicrous to try and compare them when they work on fundamentally different systems. Dota ex. strength, agility, intelligence. LoL ex. ability power, magic penetration, attack damage, and armor penetration. The stats for items are NOT comparable and both games items fulfill the needs of the game.
6. "Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant."
Riot does not believe in power creep. You can tell me how successful their balancing is seeing how the LoL competitive scene has now eclipsed the Dota competitive scene. No one except outside individuals such as yourself believe the game to be stagnant. I just looked across Reddit and the LoL forums and can't seem to find any complaint of stagnant game play and I have a really hard time remembering any as well.
Edit: made format more pleasant to look at.
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On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track.
Things in LoL are more distinguishable than Dota2.
Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea
BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea
We all know Asian aesthetics
But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
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On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters.
Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider.
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On July 06 2013 10:47 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters. Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider.
Speaking of Kart Rider
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Booster
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A topic tangentially and speculatively related to sc2, posted in sc2 general, becomes a bizarro dota v lol v sc2 v bw discussion, and devolves into its elemental dota v lol form.
wat a mindfuck.
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On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant.
I value your opinion but wtf has this to do in a sc2 forum? ^^
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style.
FTFY
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On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY
You honestly think dota will take over lol in Korea? I mean the original dota wasn't even that popular in Korea was it? I think it will be very hard especially with this announcement and the amount of coverage it's going to get.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S5WTdBN.jpg)
