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On July 06 2013 10:51 purakushi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:47 jellyjello wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters. Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider. Speaking of Kart Rider http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Booster
that guy is a monster... already reaching quarter finals when he never touched a game other than kartrider until some months ago
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![[image loading]](http://imgnews.naver.net/image/347/2013/07/05/20130705_cfe35e204c2fbca72a2b936cfd76fcbb_59_20130705123307.jpg)
We need some friendships between BW, SC2 and LoL, just like this picture of SKT.Bisu and Najin.Watch represents.
+ Show Spoiler +Watch was previously a professional StarCraft: Brood War player who played as Protoss
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On July 06 2013 10:58 trifecta wrote:
A topic tangentially and speculatively related to sc2, posted in sc2 general, becomes a bizarro dota v lol v sc2 v bw discussion, and devolves into its elemental dota v lol form.
wat a mindfuck.
Much ado about nothing.
Special Forces had its own Proleague that was branded similarly as the Starcraft Proleague, so all I can see from this is one more LoL tournament, not necessarily sc2 be replaced or hybridized with LoL. KeSPA's involvement will probably mean an extra layer of administrative support and regulations for the LoL teams similar to what was done for other KeSPA-sanctioned games, not just Starcraft.
Imo, the effects of this news should be absolutely minimal regarding sc2. It's great for LoL, but that's it.
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On July 06 2013 12:28 larse wrote:We need some friendships between BW, SC2 and LoL, just like this picture of SKT.Bisu and Najin.Watch represents. + Show Spoiler +Watch was previously a professional StarCraft: Brood War player who played as Protoss
Sorry but is that 2 dudes in the picture?
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On July 06 2013 13:37 forumtext wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 12:28 larse wrote:We need some friendships between BW, SC2 and LoL, just like this picture of SKT.Bisu and Najin.Watch represents. + Show Spoiler +Watch was previously a professional StarCraft: Brood War player who played as Protoss Sorry but is that 2 dudes in the picture?
I heard this joke applied to Asian boy bands a lot.
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On July 06 2013 11:08 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:51 purakushi wrote:On July 06 2013 10:47 jellyjello wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. This may be true for foreign audiences but the majority of Koreans prefer OGN casters over GOM casters. Also, Kespa is not moving away from SC2 but rather adding LOL to its arsenal just like they did with SF2 or Kart Rider. Speaking of Kart Rider http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Booster that guy is a monster... already reaching quarter finals when he never touched a game other than kartrider until some months ago He got a bye into the quarterfinals. Code A qualifiers were really empty this time...
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There is a saying in my country that may be valid in this case, there's probably something similar in English as well. It goes like, "2 are having an argument, 3rd one wins". The two being SC2 and BW, and the 3rd one is... LoL.
So if only there was acceptance between SC2 & BW and a better transition...
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On July 06 2013 13:37 forumtext wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 12:28 larse wrote:We need some friendships between BW, SC2 and LoL, just like this picture of SKT.Bisu and Najin.Watch represents. + Show Spoiler +Watch was previously a professional StarCraft: Brood War player who played as Protoss Sorry but is that 2 dudes in the picture?
Dude, do you watch starcraft at all? You don't know starcraft in Korea is all about video game + boy band?? 
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On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know  ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
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On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea.
Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was?
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On July 06 2013 16:56 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea. Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was? It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
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On July 06 2013 17:01 XaCez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 16:56 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea. Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was? It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea.
You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented."
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On July 06 2013 17:03 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:01 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 16:56 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea. Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was? It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea. You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented." Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
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On July 06 2013 09:58 Iodem wrote:hehe, your post made me think of this. + Show Spoiler +
I stopped the "spread the word" thing because that.
whenever I tried to show this to anyone, and I said this is red vs blue, the answer was: who is red and who is blue?
the lack of any stronger color mod didn't help.
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I'm a realest and i love sc2 more than anything. I've been playing starcraft all my life and is my favorite game all time.
League of legends is the new esports title. It is Brood war. It's the only esports game that's profitable.
For every 1 sc2 fan, there's 100. You can't compete with that. League of legends is always new because of every season changes (this season the jungle changes and items). Plus there's a new champion every month.
Starcraft 2 took years for HOTS and it added a couple units. Game needs to evolve and change. I already threw out this idea, make whole race skins and make the game free or cheap to purchase. Imagine 4 skins for protoss and they all look different and cool. Maybe add units every couple months??
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On July 06 2013 18:24 Malphite wrote:
Starcraft 2 took years for HOTS and it added a couple units. Game needs to evolve and change. I already threw out this idea, make whole race skins and make the game free or cheap to purchase. Imagine 4 skins for protoss and they all look different and cool. Maybe add units every couple months??
Chris Sigaty will never allow an stacraft f2p.
sc2 changes with the maps.
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On July 06 2013 17:57 XaCez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:03 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 17:01 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 16:56 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea. Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was? It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea. You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented." Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
not exactly what u mean by "share", but bw was the most played game in pc bangs for YEARS. not even lol will have surpassed the amount of hours bw was played in pc bangs. of course, theres no way to actually calculate it, but just by looking at the number of years lol has been popular in korea vs bw was, brood war still wins.
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On July 06 2013 20:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:57 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 17:03 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 17:01 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 16:56 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:[quote] I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea. Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was? It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea. You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented." Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example. not exactly what u mean by "share", but bw was the most played game in pc bangs for YEARS. not even lol will have surpassed the amount of hours bw was played in pc bangs. of course, theres no way to actually calculate it, but just by looking at the number of years lol has been popular in korea vs bw was, brood war still wins.
Of course LoL wouldn't have come close to number of hours BW played in pc bangs, it's been out for 15 years.
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On July 06 2013 17:57 XaCez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:03 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 17:01 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 16:56 RockIronrod wrote:On July 06 2013 16:52 XaCez wrote:On July 06 2013 11:04 amazingxkcd wrote:On July 06 2013 10:45 larse wrote:On July 06 2013 09:40 StarStruck wrote:On July 06 2013 09:34 Bisu-Fan wrote:On July 06 2013 08:20 Thinasy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2013 08:10 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 07:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website. See I'm no expert on MOBA games, but I can definitely assure you the difference between CoD and old school shooters is far, far greater than what you're implying it to be, both in terms of skill ceiling and skill displayed at the top level. Hell, it's kinda like the difference between the NBA and some kids shooting hoops in their backyard. Other than that I pretty much agree. Still, I'm curious why this was posted in the SC2 General forum, since the article (or at least the bit in the OP) doesn't mention anything about SC2? :/ Playing dota is not anywhere near the same as playing LoL. Dota is often unnecessary complicated, with different and huge variation of attack speed between heros making last hit a bitch (add in last hitting and you're looking at world of fun). LoL are much more normalized with such regards. Animation are also quite "chunky" in dota that allows for fake cast or predictions, whereas LoL are smooth. Towers are not baby sitters, allowing greater risk play in dota 2. Being able to deny people's gold by killing them is also a good mechanics that allows come backs. The come back in top LoL matches are usually illusions where one team comp becomes much more superior than the other. I'm not saying come back doesn't happen in LoL, but too many people attributes good play over simply reaching that stage of the game where your comp shines and there's little your opponents can do about it except hope you make mistakes. This is something dota 2 item department excels at, allowing you a fighting chance against specific team setup when such problem arise. The available items in dota also makes LoL look like child play. The complexity of potential builds, synergy, and specific hero-item counter is staggering. LoL is quite normalize in that regards where all ADC builds the same, most tanky bruiser build the same, etc. Heros in LoL are also quite homogenized. Honestly the newer batch of heros are just mash of abilities from available champions in LoL. Lissady felt alot like zed + icebear/morg, and zac is malphite + amumu. There is some uniqueness to them, but mechanically wise they don't feel too much different. Then you look at Dota... Invokers? meepo? rubick? lanaya, carine, they all play drastically different from each other mechanically and build wise. Any of those champ put skill ceiling (and often times floor) much higher than any champion in LoL can currently accomplished. Then there is the meta. Bot lane support never goes away in LoL, and beside early phases in LoL the meta have been slightly stagnant for many months. Jungle is not a pure viable lane and thus you end up with support/tank jungler all the time. Those kind of decisions really limits the role of each lane. Plus riot nerfs everything that is out of the ordinary, aka doesn't fit the meta, and people wonder why the game stagnant. Excellent post. Everything is true in this post, the biggest problems IMO with LoL is the nerfing Riot is doing with every champion and the lack of original champions lately is just mindnumbing. I remember when champs used to be like Ashe, sure they were really simple character design but she was just a frost archer with skills that actually made sense on a frost archer. Nowadays every new champion needs like 1 gap closer if Melee, 1 high damage ability, 1 escape, some random AoE damage or AoE CC as an ulti. Same formula on every champ otherwise they wont work in the meta. So instead of simple characters like Ashe, you end up with another archer but this one can travel in time as an escape without it making any sense at all I agree with all of the points... Dota is sometimes so unnecessarily complex... But knowing Koreans and how they liked BW over SC2 and as an ardent fan of Dota, I'm hoping the current starter league from (i know ) Nexon really showcases all the small intricacies that I've grown to love and appreciate. Only time will tell, but till then, I'm having my fingers crossed that Dota grows big in Korea~ Also, I know so many people will give me flak for this, but I like the Dota visuals better than LoL. Just the flowery/cartoony feel of LoL turns me off where as the darker WC3 feel that Dota still maintains keeps me in the tense, pressured adrenaline rush for most of the game. It's funny because you remember how everyone was saying oh shit why does D3 have to be so cartoony, it's lost it's gritty dark colors, roar! Well, in this instance, I actually think it helps from a spectator stand-point to have distinct colors so everything stands out. When I first started watching Dota2 I found it incredibly hard on the eyes, especially on the Dire side and even on the Radiant side the colors just feel really subdued/diluted. You know what I mean? I think it's actually easier to follow the Brood War action compared to SC2 as well. Time will tell how the Nexon League does, but I wouldn't cross my fingers. Nexon has let me down so many times that I've lost track. Things in LoL are less distinguishable than Dota2. Things in BW are more distinguishable than SC2. LoL is more popular than Dota2 in Korea at the current time BW is more popular than SC2 in Korea We think we all know Asian aesthetics But seriously, SC2's lighting is really very dark. And I have no idea why so many Americans and Europeans like this undistinguishable style. FTFY Nexon went with GOM over OGN, and we all know how well that turned out for SC2. But sure, please do provide me evidence that point towards Dota 2 reaching above LoL's unprecedented popularity in Korea. Wait, are you saying LoL is more popular than Brood War ever was? It is reaching BW's peak, and in the current state no game is even close to as popular as LoL is in Korea. You had me confused with your use of "unprecedented." Well I do not know, but did BW ever have 40% of the share at PC Bangs? Just taking this as an example.
Quote of a guys pages before about the popularity of these games in pc bang.
Even a person who is bad at math knows that the LoL share at PC bangs in one month surpass BW's share in one year.
On July 04 2013 15:59 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 15:56 XaCez wrote:On July 04 2013 15:21 larse wrote:On July 04 2013 15:18 SnakEhead wrote:
I think sc2 success or lack there of in Korea is, because of popularity of lol. Broodwar was the only popular game for years with little competition from other developers. Now we have starcraft 2, dota2, and lol. I think LOL is taking away viewers who would normally be watching sc2. Not really. BW had been a popular game but it was not top 1 since maybe 2005. So BW was no where close to the popularity of LoL. If you want, I have data to back up. I want the data because I love data, please. Here you go: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414741And you can see back in 2008, BW was only #4: http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=4384You can see other months here: http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_List.aspxAnd remember this was before LoL was out and BW only accounts for 6% in PC bang play time, and this number has been like this for a long time, but LoL currently accounts for 40% and has been like this for a while. It's absurdly popular and much much more popular than BW.
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On July 06 2013 06:59 iky43210 wrote:
LoL is to moba is like what COD is to FPS. The main difference is Activision did not do enough to promote its esport section like what riot did with LoL, which is why it was never caught in a wild fire (f2p helped tremendously too).
Also its no wonder kespa is moving away from SC2. Look at the OSL tourneys, people would rather watch it through GOM than from their website.
Foreign views probably have very little to do with their decisions. Theyre a korean organization with korean companies, all the sponsors are korean companies. They care about the korean viewership and the korean viewers are what drives their decisions. Yeah, the foreign views and fans do matter to them, but to a much lesser extent.
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